End of VFR
 

Can anyone out there please settle an argument which has arrisen at our flying club. Has the end of VFR time been recently changed from 30 minutes after official sunset to official sunset time? Many thanks. noelwj:confused:

81 views and still no idea. Come on. surely someone out there must have some idea. noelwj.:confused:

OK, I'll bite at no 82 (or whatever ;) ). The simple answer is - it depends which country you are in. AFAIK the variations go all the way from SR/SS to SR/SS +/- 30 (I think some even go to 45, but not sure here) mins.

Unless it has happened since 15th December 2007 (the day I was told by an instructor that sunset+30mins= start of night) then no, it has not changed.

BTW the thread title had me slightly worried for a second...although to be honest I wouldn't be suprised if EASA had mandated all should pilots should hold IRs :E:E.

In the US it is based upon the end of civil twilight. Which just happens to be when the suns disc is a certain number of arc seconds below the horizon....

But to answer your question, yep 30 mins is the UK.

Civil twilight==6 degree above/below horizon. if you do not have a theodolite handy use 30 mins after sunset and 30 minutes before sunrise.

official night is 30 mins after the published sunset time for that airfield.

The vast majority of sunset and sunrise times are published in the UK Air Pilot, Pooleys, Lockyears and also available on - line, if you can't find one for your airfield there'll always be one in the above that's near enough.

I've not heard of a change under CAA rules.

But from vague memory (and without looking it up) the FAA situation has a little gotcha - your 3 takeoffs and landings have to be between ss+1hr and sr-1hr in order to count for passenger carriage in the period ss+30mins to sr-30mins. So the FAA tries to stop pilots maintaining their night currency by doing a few quick circuits before it is properly dark. Hope I got that right.

A quick look on Google located this article.

Appears that on 12th December 2007 the Queen ordered that:

RC

duplicate post

Yes if you are very quick in this country you could do a night qualification rating in 30 minute sessions without really ever flying in the dark, dark!

What's so difficult about looking it here.

The answer, at least for NI and the rest of the UK, is ‘Night’ means the time from half an hour after sunset until half an hour before sunrise (both times inclusive), sunset and sunrise being determined at surface level.

Can't see any reason for an argument.

My, I'm feeling grumpy tonight - that's two grumpy posts out of two.

Noelwj,

Perhaps the confusion comes from your location. Your location is given as Northern Ireland.

UK rules according to the posters above is ss+30min.

However I am sure that if you are based in NI, that you often fly into the Republic, and that you come across many pilots based in the Republic. The night rules in the Republic are different.

In the Republic of Ireland, from 1 April to 30 Sept, night starts at ss+30 minutes. From 1 Oct to 31 March, night starts from sunset.

Perhaps that helps clear up the confusion?

dp

Just to be pedantic, you can fly VFR at night.

Well to be pedantic back, you can't in the UK, nor in the Republic of Ireland. The closest you can get in either country is SVFR.

In the UK you can fly IFR at night in VMC without an IR. In Ireland, you can only fly at night under IFR, which they require you to have an IR for.

dp

Er.... Actually I think you will find no VFR at night in the UK. You must fly IFR (R for 'Rules') in VMC (C for 'Conditions') at night. No need for an IR (Instrument rating), you just have to follow the rules...

Just to be more pedantic, only if you are military.

However, under the UK ANO, IFR are deemed to be complied with (at or below 3000ft) if an aircraft remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

In effect, the rules allow us to fly "special VFR" at night, although that general term isn't used in the regulations.

(I'll give it no more than a couple of hours before DFC gets involved in this one, it's his favourite bar argument). ;)

I'm not sure that I'd go along with that - SVFR is the basis for an ATC clearance under, arguably, a not very well defined set of rules. I would think it's more correct to say that in the UK the IFR allow us to fly visually at night in certain circumstances (and in full compliance with the IFR).

Special VFR is only available in a control zone.

i.e. airspace Class A, B, C, D or E which starts at the surface.

Regards,

DFC

Yes, agreed you don't ask for a clearance in Class G (or need to, there's no-one to ask) but the "let out" clause which allows us to make a "visual contact flight" under IFR in Class G is effectively under exactly the same terms as an SVFR clearance for the other, controlled types of airspace.

Read the words in the ANO and the second paragraph of my previous.

I used the parentheses around my use of the phrase "special VFR" deliberately because it isn't really SVFR.

P.s. Very quick DFC, only twenty nine minutes ;)