Orbiting on Final
 

Has anyone ever had to do this ? And if so, what is the correct procedure ? I'm raising this question in the light of an AAIB report at Southend
http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/publicati...0l__g_babb.cfm

Orbits on Base and Final
 

When I was flying into Luton, I regularly orbitted on left or right base to allow faster jet traffic to land (sometimes a whole stram of them if it was about 6.00 pm) while I waited for a gap in traffic to emerge.

I have also orbitted on final when it as been apparent that there is insufficient time for somebody slow in vacating to clear the runway before I arrive, thus an orbit saves a go-around and a full circuit and having to slot into traffic again.

I have also been in the VCR at Luton on one accasion when a Streamline "shed" did an orbit on final for 24 while a (I think) Monarch 76 went the full length and backtracked to B1. Again to avoid a go around and a full circuit.

(Edit on 13/7) Having now read the report in full, I still consider an orbit to be a perfectly normal manoever, esp under my circumstances above where traffic of greatly differing speeds are mixed. Obviously the first thing is to arrest the descent and get good flying speed with as much power as it takes, rememebering carb haet off and perhaps even carefully cancelling a stage of flaps.

DGG

Not read the report yet. Never done it as a pilot, wouldn't tell anyone to do it as an ATCO. It should be a go-around as normal, with any turns made (probably to re-position late downwind) only when the aircraft is in a safe configuration to do so.

I saw an Aer Lingus do it once, on final into Dublin. :eek: It was below 1000ft at the time.....prob about 2 miles from the threshold (at most!) :eek:

I nearly crashed my car while looking at it :O

At least he knew noone was coming up behind him, as it was in class C.

I just wondered if asked to do this, what the correct procedure is ? i.e do you remain in approach config / speed and use pitch to maintain airspeed and power to cancel descent, or would you retract flaps and return to normal cruise speed ? I was never taught it as its not on the PPL and it sounds damn risky to me.

This is not something that I would be happy to accept, I would rather do a proper missed approach and go around.

Shy_one

There is another way to look at this, although described as an "orbit" so most people imagine a 360 turn at low level, my view is that if asked to do so and only if 1,000 AGL or above, I break off in the direction requested to fly a short crosswind leg, then turn downwind to get a view of the faster traffic that's passing me (and to leave enough room before I turn "base" and join finals again behind him).

It's nothing complicated, just a "mini" circuit. If the manoeuvre was required for spacing for traffic ahead, then a 360 orbit at or above 1,000 feet AGL is no problem. I don't change the config of the a/c at all, just apply enough power to stop the a/c descending and go all the way round.

Below 1,000 feet, follow a standard missed approach and fly accordingly telling the tower that I'm unable to orbit.

Only about halfway through the report (makes for some sad reading...:() but the chap was NOT instructed to orbit, but to break off the approach and fly a heading (north).

Sounds dangerous to me. You're on final, which means that you're flying in a high-drag configuration (full flaps, possibly the gear down) and just a few knots above the stall speed when straight and level. All of a sudden you're going to increase power (torque effect, balance...) and you're going to make some turns. In a turn, the g-loading on the aircraft increases, and are you really remembering not to exceed 20 degrees bank here, and not to push the plane around with the rudder?

It sounds like a great opportunity for the classic stall/spin scenario, even more than the turn to final.

In such a case, first put the power on, get rid of the drag (retract gear, partially retract flaps), increase speed, then turn. And by then you'll find you're doing a go-around anyway. So turn crosswind and join downwind (might be late downwind) for a new attempt.

Yes very sad
 

I also wonder if he applied throttle incorrectly during the manoeuvre ? I.e. he cut power to 900rpm rather than applied 2000rpm.

Very sad.

I had to orbit on final at Southend of all places a few years ago when a Shed landing ahead of me shed a tyre: it managed to vacate the runway but they wanted to send a vehicle out to pick up debris.
I was at 300 ft and was told to orbit right for 24.
Even though at the time I had over 400 hours, this was way out of my comfort zone so I told ATC I was going to clear to the NE and re approach a bit later.
Highly inconvenient as I was on my way to France and was dropping in to Southend to clear Customs and it would have been tempting to continue to orbit: However it would have meant cleaning up from approach configuration, perhaps even retracting the gear and all the time the ground looked awful close.....
I really feel for the poor student on his second solo having been given unusual instructions in an unusual way...........
Cusco

EDDNR and 172driver are spot on.

I have been asked to do excatly this at SFB and St AUgustine in Florida as a solo student and twice at Ronaldsway in the Isle of Man.

Key things:

1) Watch that airspeed no matter what your configuration
2) Ensure you stay off the final approach path

However it is a terrible chain of events and the RTF from the ADC and APC was not exactly polished. Still they are only human and accidents do happen.

I have been asked to do it several times, in the States, in RSA and most recently at Norwich IIRC!

Not really a big deal, roll on bank in the direction requested (generally left) and pull!

Stik

Very sad the accident, but are people really saying that they cannot conduct a 360 turn in the approach configuration safely?

OK for a second solo it is a step too far (probably) but for an experienced PPL its too dangerous - surely not. Accepting all the ATC issues that orbiting brings why should a 360 turn in any configuration be beyond the skill of a PPL?How do these people manage to turn finals without falling out of the sky?

The report made for some very sad reading. It did remind me of my early solo flights and how taxing it can be at that stage.

My very first solo flight that I made. I had a change of runway presented to me whilst on the downwind leg.. I coped with that fairly well.

My second solo almost ended in disaster. It went wrong from the word go. I realised after take off that I hadn't set the flaps for take off configuration.. A very small thing, but it did upset me.. The landing was one of those that just floated on and on... I lost my nerve and applied full throttle, forgeting to make sure that the nose didn't pitch up!!! :eek:... So from just that one experience. I can understand what may have been going on with the poor student in this case. It can just take one small thing to throw out a whole flight.

It took another four hours of instruction before I went solo again. We went through all sorts of situations that could happen on the landing approach and practiced like crazy. All I can say is that from that time onwards I could deal with anything that was thrown at me... It was worth spending the time and money on this, and I am grateful to this day of what my instructor did for me on this aspect. I wish that a lot more work was done on the landing phase and situations that are likely to develop.

My instructor drummed it into me that I was in charge of the aircraft and it was my responsibility to do whatever I felt happy with in whatever situation. If that meant letting ATC know that I'm unable to do something, or feel that it is outside my experience. Then I should say so. That includes changing runways (that applied to my early solo time) That still applies with my standard PPL in certain situations.

What would I have done if I was this chap with low hours... I would have probably done what they had asked. As soon as I had confirmed that. I would have increased the throttle to full power gained speed, cleaned the aircraft up, and returned to circuit height. Although I must say that I wouldn't be happy about it. My concern would be what they were going to do with me next... Hindsight would have told me to say to them that I was going to go round. By far the safest situation and it allows me time to settle down into a procedure I know well. I suspect that my instructor would have approved of that.

Astral

Backpacker - What's this 20 degrees AoB limit you mention? I suspect that's just a bad habit a nervous poor instructor taught you.

As one of my old colleagues said - light aeroplanes are predominantly very forgiving machines - given sufficient airspeed you can pretty much throw them around as much as you like. With the emphasis on the sufficient airspeed - manouevring at 45 deg AoB will only increase your stall speed by just less than 20%, a speed that you should be able to achieve very quickly with a burst of power from a normal approach speed.

Knight, I'm actually on an aerobatics course right now where we do 75+ degrees bank turns with full power. Just keep pulling and increasing bank, maintaining altitude, until the aircraft stalls... :-) (Do not try this at home though.)

During PPL training, the 20 degrees bank was the limit when doing the turn to (short) final, with (almost) full flaps, low airspeed and low power. At least, you had to plan your final turn so that it could be achieved with 20 degrees bank, whereas the downwind to base turn, with more speed, could be achieved with 30 degrees bank.

Obviously it's all got to do with g loading. And with nervous instructors, too...

Even my aeros instructor (who happens to be a display pilot too) gets rightfully nervous if you start manoeuvring aggressively, on final, with full flaps, low airspeed and low power settings.

Still, if you planned your turn to final wrongly and 20 degrees doesn't cut it, like you say, it's better to put a bit of power on and roll on 45 degrees of bank, than to try and force the aircraft around with the rudder while maintaining 20 degrees.

having just completed my first solo, reading that sent a chill down my spine. a very sad story.

i'd feel unhappy about orbiting on finals too.

safe flying everyone :ok:

Backpacker - Glad you're getting some experience poling an aeroplane around properly! In my own opinion, the idea of a "bank angle limit", especially one as low as 20 degrees, is a thoroughly stupid idea. Yes, by all means, teach students that the turn onto finals should be "gentle", but imposing an artificial limit just introduces an extra distraction - sapping mental capacity by forcing them to monitor an extra parameter, and potentially introducing the problem you mentioned, whereby a student would sit at 20 deg AoB and try to kick the aircraft round the corner with rudder, rather than increasing speed slightly and manoevering the aircraft properly. It also seems to introduce a horrible mindset where people seem to think that the aeroplane will drop out of the sky if manoevered at anything above 30 deg at any flight conditions.

I personally would be an advocate of introducing low speed agressive manoeuvering as a compulsory part of the PPL (if not some mild aerobatics), just to give people some idea of where the limits of an aeroplane actually lie. Just my opinion!

If you stay under 20 degrees angle of bank for final and climbing turns it means the increase in stall speed is negligible (6.41%) so you don't have to worry about increasing speed. You can bank as steeply as you like - just make sure you have the speed to avoid the stall and power to keep the speed/altitude combination required.

If you don't believe me watch a glider pilot turning final: If they need to tighten up the final turn, they'll roll on as much bank (45+ degrees) as needed increasing speed by the requisite amount instinctively. But then glider pilots do spend a lot of time a couple of knots above the stall in, for power pilots, what is a steep turn.

Bottom line: Keeping to 20 degrees angle of bank in final/climbing turns in the circuit is a good safety guideline - but not a physical/aerodynamic limitation.

OC619

Orbiting on final approach:


2 stages of flap.

70/75kts C152/PA28

15 degrees AOB (making allowance for wind)

2 minutes(ish) for a 360.

This is neither rocket science nor dangerous - basically the configuration for slow/safe cruise - the way you fly when position fixing when lost. Fair enough you might be a bit lower but it really is not a demanding manouevre - if you happen to think it is then I would respectfully suggest a session with an instructor.

Although it would take quite a big change I think this is something that should be altered. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts.

IMHO There should be no place for orbiting in any circuit, if you cant get in from finals, simply go around.

I remember a solo student years ago on basic training in the military who had a PPL, stating "I'll just orbit here at late downwind" when he should have continued to final and either got permission to land or roll or GONE AROUND.

He had an uncomfortable meeting with the Sqn Ldr, no coffee and biscuits, shortly after landing!

Unfortunately the civillian world has no such clear and simple procedure. I have often been asked to orbit in questionable circumstances, the other day LBA required me to orbit on downwind in a twin with a C172 ahead orbitting and a PA28 at TOC behind me also orbitting, the wx was average to cr*p and could easily have been a problem for a solo student.

I dont really wish to open the commercial versus GA debate which is often the reason for the request to orbit, (but go ahead if you like) what I'm suggesting is: As per RAF etc. just go around the circuit until you cant go any further then go around and rejoin the circuit and do it again, its simple, accurate and works universally.

The accident report above appears to relate simply to a go around request but as we know, anything out of the ordinary can quickly fill up the bottle if you're new.

Regards
Xraf:ok:

OC619 - spot on! You're right about glider pilots being happier at higher angles of bank with higher airspeeds, my views may well have been influenced by a fair bit of unpowered flight during my early flying experience. As well as being trained in the use of higher bank angles, merely seeing them used from the ground routinely probably affects the mindset of most glider pilots. I'm NOT suggesting people should go off and practice things they've seen from the ground without an instructor, just that most powered club-type pilots are very unlikely to see higher angles of bank used - with the obvious exception of those airfields reknowned for aerobatics.

xraf - Also spot on! Agree with you completely. The hard part would have to be persuading people to fly smaller circuits - with the size of many GA circuits, a go-around necessitates a lot more flying than with your typical tight military oval. However, I don't want this thread to drift onto the joys of oval RAF circuits and GA circuits outside the ATZ - been done to death before!

Benhurr - thanks for that. Thats more or less what I thought, but it still seems a particularily risky thing to do when you're only 500 foot above a housing estate !!!

Personally I would go around and tell ATC that I was doing so. But having trained at an A/G field and doing most of my flying out of one, I'm not too sure about how well ignoring an ATC instruction would go down....!

I had a similar experience whilst under training - I was on a solo flight. I was on finals, having made the correct radio calls, when I heard a motor glider call joining late finals. I looked out to base, and saw him heading straight for me in my 9 o'clock. What did I do? Frankly, I panicked, called that I was orbiting, and turned into him so that I could keep him in sight. He called back that what I was doing wasn't very clever. He was right. Thankfully, we both landed safely. My instructor hadn't seen/heard the incident, but told me that I should have gone around. I went off to the gliding club to aoplogise, to be met halfway by the motor glider pilot who was coming to see me to apologise! I guess we were both in the wrong; he shouldn't have tried to cut in front, and I should have gone round. I learned about flying from that..

xraf, I agree that orbits should not be necessary, provided that all aircraft fly a visual circuit and are flying at speeds that are more or less compatible.

But consider my home field, Rotterdam, which handles commercial traffic up to 737s as well. If I'm on downwind with a 737 on some-mile final (ILS), ATC is going to tell me to orbit. Because the alternatives are worse.

If he goes first (and he probably will, since he's on final and I'm not), I don't want to meet him, or his wake turbulence. So I'm going to have to wait it out, somewhere, for about two minutes. Continuing for two minutes on downwind takes me way outside the circuit, if not outside the CTR. If I just continue my circuit, base, final, over the runway, upwind and cross, all at circuit height, I'm making the 737 nervous because I might interfere with his go-around path. (And he might have to tangle with my wake turbulence!)

And if the tower lets me go first, well, the touchdown zones and exits on our runway are positioned so that even if you land long, even well beyond the light aircraft displaced touchdown zone, it still is quite a distance to roll before we get to the nearest exit. The aircraft I fly are used regularly for training (ATC knows the callsigns by heart) but ATC can't smell whether its a student or experienced pilot on board. They're not going to risk sending a 737 around because of a light aircraft taking a little longer to vacate than average.

So orbits in the circuit are a regular occurance where I fly. Nothing wrong with them if they happen on downwind or on any of the visual approach paths into the CTR.

Oh, and because of the interesting mix of comair and GA, first solos almost never happen at our field but go elsewhere.

I was watching an EMB-195 coming into land at Southampton today, about 3 miles from touch down on runway 20 the plane broke off the approach, started a right hand orbit, disappeared back into cloud before reappearing on the ILS a few minutes later.

An orbit is ok in controlled airspace in agreement with ATC but at a busy uncontrolled airfield orbitting on final is not recommended!

Student callsigns
 

I well remember this incident as it happened during my flying training-I assumed at the time that it was base/final turn too tight/too slow but I now know the truth-all extremely sad.It actually impacted on my flying at the time as my instructor noticed that my approach speeds were greater than normal.
I noted in the report recommendations regarding callsigns to enable students to be identified to controllers and feel this is vital to safety.

During my training,the instructors had their own personal callsign.When they sent someone off solo, 'Sierra' was added to this callsign and used by the student.
The controller(s) knew then they had a student and it also permitted the instuctor to fly with another student-I think something like this should be mandatory.
Would like to think that this young man's passing would at least contribute a little to flight safety.
MM

Orbits are common where I am based (an ATC airfield).

However, I don't think ATC would ask a new solo student to do one (they know who is a new student pilot because the instructor phones them up).

There are far more stupid procedures than orbits. The overhead join is the #1 candidate for the stupidity award. You can have an unlimited number of planes (easily 5) in the OH at the same time, all at 2000ft agl, but you will be lucky to be visual with more than 1 of them. The OHJ was designed to enable the WW1 pilot (non-radio, of course) to read the signals square :ugh:

On a wider subject, I think circuits early on in the training are daft. The student would learn more, and learn more enjoyably, if he did some real trips from start to end. There is some work being done on this in the USA, where they are using scenario-based learning (basically, doing normal flying, during which things happen) very successfully.

Of course most PPLs can do an orbit on final in the approach configuration without falling from the sky:

But this poor student wasn't asked to do an orbit: after several uncertain and non-standard R/T exchanges he was asked in a non standard way to steer a course away from the final track to the North: a completely unexpected request and at variance from the usual 'go-around ' instruction to move to the right of the final track to keep Rwy in view which he would have been taught.
And all this after only 15 hours and on his second solo.

IMHO the ATC have a lot to answer for................
Cusco;)

Edited for grammar, syntaxe and to clarify whose side I'm on.

Why are they? If I've got 1 or 2 commercial inbounds there's nothing wrong with extending the light aircraft downwind, tell him who he's following and remind him of the number of miles recommended spacing. The relative speeds are such that the C152 (forf example) won't go that far downwind.

No ATCO in their right mind should tell you to do that, for the reasons you state.

First solo's often happen where I work - and that's with traffic up to B763 / MD11 (and often AN124 or 225) so where's the problem?

Horses for courses I suppose.

G-EMMA - I hope you're learning at an ATC airfield? If not then your instructor wants his ar$e kicked as orbiting off your own bat at an A/G or FISO airfield is asking for trouble. If they're demonstracting that to students then that's really appalling. You are right to think the go-around is a better option.

Cusco - I've read the read the report. Let's just say it's not how I would have done things, to the extent that the C150 might even have stayed no.1, at least until a point where they could have carried out a safe, standard, go-around if need be.

orbit on final
 

This is something I only came across recently. I am a low houred(140) ppl who was flying, as a passenger, into a regional airport when on final, we were instructed to orbit to maintain spacing from slow traffic ahead. My friend did this with no problem but afterwards I thought that if I had been flying I would have been unaware of which way to orbit. We had been flying a right hand circuit and my friend made a left hand orbit to rejoin without incident. From this I assumed the orbit should be made to the outside of the circuit or should ATC specify the direction of the orbit?

ATC should specify the direction.

I remember coming into Norwich a couple of years ago - was on short finals in an Arrow with gear down, full flap, and probably at no more than 200ft height.

Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.

Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.

I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.

Moral of story is not lay blame at the door of ATC - we are all human. And if given instructions which are impossible to comply with, or just unsafe, then climb away and / or leave the circuit. If you think you can do something safely, then do it. Problem with this poor student, is that climbing away and leaving the circuit was not an option for him in his limited experience. A very sad story.

I'm not surprised the lad got overloaded. You're so excited during the early solos that your comfort zone is very small - anything different can have strange consequences. I remember on my first cross-country getting into a muddle with an RAF controller (I couldn't understand him at all, first time it had ever happened) who was clearly working hard and talking very quickly. After passing 500ft I contacted him and it took me two attempts to hear the digits he wanted for the squawk.

It hardly rattled me, but the result was I left full power on in the cruise after trimming the aircraft, and hadn't noticed until I heard the same controller advising a crossing a/c of my presence with his tone suggesting some surprise at my airspeed....I was very surprised I hadn't even noticed.

"I have been asked to do it several times, in the States, in RSA and most recently at Norwich IIRC!

Not really a big deal, roll on bank in the direction requested (generally left) and pull!

Stik"


Surely not good advice when students are reading.
If in a cessna 150, in the approach config. (flapped, low engine power travelling at Vs1 * 1.3), you then roll to the left, and pull, another tragic fatality is likely.

>>>I remember coming into Norwich a couple of years ago - was on short finals in an Arrow with gear down, full flap, and probably at no more than 200ft height.

Another aircraft was at the hold waiting to line up, when ATC mixed up some instructions. Rather than clearing me to land and telling the other aircraft to hold position, he told me to hold position and then said something else to the other aircraft.

Told ATC that I wasn't really sure how he expected me to comply with the "hold position" instruction when at 200ft on short final, and told him I would do an orbit. Took down one stage of flap, left gear gown, applied more power to increase airspeed up to 90mph and did the orbit. I then landed without problem after the orbit when given clearance to land.

I then copped an earful from ATC along the lines of "WTF was that all about?" Prompt argument ensues - he listens to tape playback, and suddenly becomes apologetic.<<<<

Try that at our local equivalent of Norwich and they'd do more than give you an ear-bashing!!!!!

They may well have mixed up their calls, but you

a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.

b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.

c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.

In my innocent view, you were clearly in the wrong. You should just have gone around.

Well, assuming he was in a fixed wing, and not a helicopter, and being legitimately told by ATC to "hold position", I guess he's got no other legitimate choice than to orbit. Or fall out of the sky.

But there was a suspicion that ATC was mixing up callsigns. What I would do is "XXX is short final, say again" with that tone of voice that suggests already that what ATC said was totally unexpected and a possible mistake on the ATC side.

Admittedly, short final, 200 feet to go, not much time to start sorting things out

Chilli:

Just to clarify: I've read the report too, in full.

Cusco;)

Lucy Lastic
Why don't you read more closely what I said.
a) don't try to land with another aircraft on the runway, unless you can be sure you have room to do so.
I only landed having received clearance - doesn't my post say this? The other aircraft which was waiting didn't actually line up - I didn't say this in the post, but why would you wait at 200ft? You have to take immediate action.
b) Orbiting at such a late stage may be a good way of getting the spacing required, but you would be backing up a lot of others behind you - certainly here.
Who said anything about spacing? It was to comply with a strange ATC instruction "hold position." How else do I hold without falling out the sky unless I orbit?
c) ATC would have been within their rights to have told you to go-around, and I'm surprised they didn't.
ATC could well have told me to go around if the other aircraft had started to line up. They didn't. It didn't. I could have elected to go around, and would have done if there had been other traffic behind me - but as there was no other traffic behind me and nothing in the circuit, I chose to comply with the unusual instruction because I felt it safe to do so.
All clear now?