Dayglo knickers and steel toe-capped flip-flops? :E

Of course, Regulations you know!

Little incident we almost had today.

A club member had invited some of his neighbors to come fly with him. Because of the numbers, this happened in several shifts and with two pilots. All the participants were briefed beforehand... Hi Viz, take care of propellers, don't wander around the platform unaccompanied etc.

One of the pilots loads up the aircraft with passengers, briefs them, asks for startup clearance and starts his starting checklist. He has a good look around and sees someone at the other end of the apron taking pictures. Fine. Continues the checks, beacon on, strobes on, fuel pump on, mixture rich, prime, mags on and just as he is about to push the starter button he looks outside again and sees the same person hanging over the cowling taking pictures of the passengers. That person clearly must have run over the apron and through the prop arc to get there. He actually sees that person turning the LIVE prop a bit so he could get closer.

You can imagine the telling-off that this person got. But not his reaction. "Don't worry, I've worked in commercial aviation for 20 years, I know what I'm doing." Oh, and he was wearing a Hi-Viz, like he was told at the briefing.

Maybe it's time for a sort of informal rule at those places where Hi-Viz is mandatory but unnecessary. Those who wear them properly, with all the body parts through the right holes and without ending up with a big tangle at the back (not a small feat on a windy apron in any case) are probably outsiders and should be watched. Those who simply stick their head through the first available hole and be done with it, are insiders and can be trusted not to do something stupid.

Crash One
 

I actually agree with your sentiments, however I think when it comes to viciously tarring all H&S with the same brush and hurling insults it damages the 'cause' rather than strengthen it.

If the Health & Safety Executive had enough brain cells between them to consider what type of person should be employed as a safety officer & employ such persons, apply the rules sympathetically using common sense, logic, due consideration, call it what you will, then they may EARN the respect that the concept deserves. The concept of "let us devise a set of rules to ensure the safety of the un-initiated population" is fine, commendable hurrah. It is the applicators who have caused the problem, & the buck stops at the top.
I have no regrets, I have heard the reports of the disgusting breakfast served at the local hospital as a result of mis-managed health & safety issues, all the ambulance crews knew the quickest way to us, what do you do when the company nurse gets knocked down by a forklift driver reversing into a passage without warning? she is only there two days a week. If more people did their job properly & paid attention instead of walking about with their head up their arse, blaming everybody else when things go wrong then elfin safety wouldn't be necessary.

bedtime

Crash One
 

As I said such vicious attacks is a reflection on those behind them and puts them in a position of appearing to be as big numptys as those they insult.

Personally I don't come across H&S folks any where near often enough to get so upset over them, nor will it make any difference to me how vicious others are to them.

I have noticed though that the less folks seem to have in their life the more they look for trivia to get worked up about.

I have noticed though that the less folks seem to have in their life the more they look for trivia to get worked up about.

Conversely the deciding factor in the timing of my retirement from aviation after over fifty years as a pilot / mechanic was I could not put up with the dumbing down of the industry by the ever expanding army of officials churning out endless mindless rules and regulations and hiring the mentally challenged to enforce same.

Like I previously said, quitting aviation was like getting rid of a dose of clap.

Chuck
 

I resisted asking last time, when asking if you recognised the the shallowness on their grasp on reality, inferring from experience, if your anology to getting rid of the clap was from personal experience too!

I find it amusing to think that 'the deciding factor' in your retirement, after over 50 years in aviation, was the H&S. :ok:

I find it amusing to think that 'the deciding factor' in your retirement, after over 50 years in aviation, was the H&S.

I am delighted I amuse you Baby Bear however may I suggest you go back and read what I said?

I specifically stated I had had enough of mindless bureaucrats sitting in cubicles churning out mindless rules and policies that ends making aviation less safe because they drive us experienced people out of the business.

Now if you want to debate my background and examine it with the intent of showing that I needed bureaucrats to keep me safe please feel free to do so.:ok:

Chuck
 

Absolutely no desire to debate your background, why should you think that?

I am merely pointing out that having worked for 50+ years the decision to retire is somewhat easier than for most.:ok:

IN the good old days we had Apprentices; they learned two things: Quality and Safety!

We did away with apprentices and invented Quality and Safety modules to fill the gap.

If you build a house without a foundation, it doesn't matter what you do afterwards, it still hasn't got a foundation!

In most occupations, certain personality types are drawn to the type of occupation.

So, the kind of people who will be drawn to H&S will tend to be the types who don't have much of a life of their own and like to live their life through manipulating the lives of others.

Plenty of examples of such people in daily life - outside any occupation.

These types also tend to be jealous of what they see as others having more interesting lives, which might explain their occassionally crude patronising behaviour towards their "subjects".

But the job will also attract specific personality traits e.g. somebody who fusses about seemingly trivial details. Unsuprising, because they don't have anything more interesting to do all day. It's a bit like some pilots debating some obscure article of the ANO :)

But IMHO the biggest problem with H&S is that it is very easy to do empire building. Ultimately however the blame for the ability of any department to build an empire is down to senior management, and I bet you that the airports who have the silliest yellow jacket policies also have the weakest and most out of touch management.

I don't think anybody has ever come up with an actual H&S reason for yellow jackets at GA airfields, and I doubt anybody would bother.

This is all a long way away from earthing electrics and fitting a flue to a boiler. These are not H&S issues; they are basic skills within the applicable professions.

'But the job will also attract specific personality traits e.g. somebody who fusses about seemingly trivial details. Unsuprising, because they don't have anything more interesting to do all day.'

Exactly the point I was making about those making a mountain out of hi viz vests. Maybe the very people that would excel in H&S roles?

A child cuts his finger at school – even though it is a minor cut, the teacher will send him to matron.

Most appliances these days have plugs fitted by the manufacturer – but if used in a place of work we insist on placing little labels on them to say they are safe.

We wear high viz. jackets because everyone working on or near a road does.

Why?

The lawyers will claim all these measures constitute best practice. If these measures have not been followed then someone is culpable.

The trouble is where does it end?

In Yachting Monthly this month the editor reports that some bright spark at H and S insisted a Topper dinghy should carry a life raft. For those of you that don’t know a Topper dingy is a singled handed craft about 3.5 metres long. The suggestion is preposterous but the proposal will only not come to pass as long as those involved have the courage to determine not to comply.

You will find a H and S case to support almost any additional measures. There must be a H and S case for not flying aircraft with one engine. That is why it is such a wonderful gravy train in a society in which we have become incapable of distinguishing between reasonable and unreasonable measures.

Quote
'But the job will also attract specific personality traits e.g. somebody who fusses about seemingly trivial details. Unsuprising, because they don't have anything more interesting to do all day.'

Exactly the point I was making about those making a mountain out of hi viz vests. Maybe the very people that would excel in H&S roles? Unquote.

Babybear
You seem to picking selectively this trivial thing & suggesting that those who make mountains out of this are obviously in the wrong.
By the way I refuse to correct what I have just written if you think I have got some detail slightly incorrect.
As for how little I have in my life being my reason for "vicious attacks". What can I say? If I spend more tha 30sec on this keyboard it will prove I have bugger all else to do, If I don't answer I am obviously embarrased.
I don't really believe that you really agree with everything H&S stands for.
If you do then perhaps you should join them.

Here is the thing - demonstrate in each instance there is a reasonable H and S case to be met and you can implement your procedures.

Point me to the study demonstrating the safety case for wearing high viz jackets on the ramp and I will wear mine.

Crash One
 

I am really tempted to say I already work for H&S, but it wouldn't be true.

You are absolutely right, I don't agree with everything H&S stands for, far from it, I do in fact agree with most of the criticism. I am, however, mindful of the benefit H&S has afforded us in the work place, in places of leisure, going about our daily business etc. and find it OTT to condemn all H&S due to the current inadequacies. Yes hi viz vests are a nuisance, uncomfortable etc., but the wearing of them really isn't the big deal this thread makes it out to be.

I'm afraid the Hi Vis IS the big deal.
They are not particularly uncomfortable. They are not really inconvenient, I have two on the rear shelf in my a/c in case I cannot avoid wearing them.
What they are is a SYMBAL of control. They convey to others that the wearer NEEDS TO BE NOTICED because THE WEARER cannot look out for him/her self. They are a UNIFORM imposed upon us in a "democratic society" where the government has NO RIGHT to force us to wear a uniform.
If they had that right they would most certainly have exercised it by now.
The big deal is the fact that in most cases at small GA fields the bloody things do nothing to enhance safety, which is what this thread was about, all they do is give Moronic Jobsworth a reason to exist, & the more Moronic Jobsworth is the more he will make our lives a misery because he likes his job.
Next will come a specific design of Hi Vis costing aviation prices. Then the trousers to go with it. Then the safety boots, the crash hat, parachute, safety goggles, non slip paint on the apron, stone guard fencing, grass strips banned. Where do you think they will stop if no-one tries to put the brakes on.

Crash One
 

It's back to the same old story of it being someone elses property, so they make the rules, as it should be. You call the shots in your castle, in relation to your aircraft etc. The mods call the shots here, dosesn't mean everyone agree with them. Where would society be if everyone made their own rules?

Just to reiterate, I don't agree with the vests.

Is that like the Trumpet of Doom. :}
If you don't like the vest, how's about one of these.


http://www.hivis.net/ProductImages/221_lg.jpg:ok: