Fleet grounded at 7kts??
 

I had a flight booked at my local flight school. The TAF read 30016kt 9999 FEW031 BECMG 1719 28003. The METAR was 30007KT with the runway being 231 degree's. The school would not fly. I asked why they would not fly as the wind is 7KT's forcast to decrease and they said the wiond direction is dangerous being right across the runway. I couldn't beleive what i was hearing. A C152 has a demonstrated Xwind landing of 15KT's.
I was somewhat bemused as to why they would not fly.
Later checked and the wind went down to 29002KT:eek:

Sounds like an excuse to cancel.

It could be multiple reasons why they wanted to cancel you and a 5 knt x-wind wasn't one of them.

Egnv?

Cfs?

Well I know some schools won't let their planes out if the crosswind is over the demonstrated limit for the plane, but 7kt? Only for low-hour students with no crosswind experience, perhaps? Shurely shome mistake (or really another reason to cancel).

Well the TAF was saying 16kts

I always say "when in doubt .. leave it out!" however 7knots would have been good for some relatively easy crosswind landing practice. I think you should talk to them again!

not looking properly..
 

sorry ...I didn’t read properly.. if the cross wind could have been 16 knots which was, according to the TAF, you can hardly blame the school .. apologies and promise to read more carefully in the future.

Get a share and save the pain.

Rod1

According to the TAF, it wasn't forecast to decrease until after 5pm, which is after dark at this time of year. So that can be disregarded. The TAF reckoned the wind would be 16kts, and around 30 degrees off the runway heading....actually probably more like 35 degrees in reality, as the wind direction is true, the runway direction magnetic. You don't say how much experience you have, but that's a reasonable crosswind, especially for a low hours pilot. And forecasts are not that precise - suppose the wind increased to 20kts, and backed to 290 (and it did back, didn't it?). Not a lot of change, but now you have a strong wind by most people's standards, straight across the runway, and out of the limits of both what's stated for the C152, and more importantly, the limits for many pilots.

I think the school was being cautious, but not overly so.

Folklore?
 

Hi Whirlly .. am I missing something ? is the offset not 70 degrees? If so would that not make 100% of the crosswind and officially beyond the limits of a 150? Anyway I have heard of one airfield |(2 people swear this is true) training in 40 knot plus crosswinds?!! The CFI was 35,000 hours but I find 25 knots very demanding and have 500 hours in 150s but even so rermind myself I'm still a relative novice and leave the heroics for more able pilots.

Did the METAR come from your own field, or another? If so, how far away? Just because it was 7kts one minute, doesn't mean you won't get veering shear and an increase the next.

The TAF forecast 16kts right on the beam (300 - 230 = 70 deg.) Yes, it may have been OK for an instructor, but you may have done a short flight and then got completely caught out.

Having said that, I don't know what your status is (hours/stude et al).

Lightish winds not as forecast is... sod's law. A meaningful discussion with the one who made the decision is often beneficial to learn why people make the decisions they do.

It may sound a bit pedantic but I think you'll find the C152 max demonstrated cross wind limit is 15mph not knots (ie 12kts or so).

It would make for an interesting insurance claim if the TAF/METARs exceeded the max demonstrated limit and an aircraft was damaged - even if it wasn't as a result of the cross wind.

Years ago someone reckoned on another forum the max demonstrated cross wind limit was set on the day of the FAA-observed flight test so could only be as much as the wind was blowing on the day - doh!

I understand people's issues here. Remember the TAF always forcasts the worst case scenario for the period indicated. The METAR was 7KTS for 1 1/2 hours as i was watching it. It never went over 12KTS.

I think the FTO was being very over cautious. At the end of the day its their aircraft, but on many occassions the TAF has been wrong and updated as was the case on sunday in Manchester.

I've landed in 15KT crosswinds....it's good practice for me

The only thing you're missing is that Whirly hasn't yet recovered from the effects of a rather good New Year's Eve and therefore can't do simple arithmatic! ;)

Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is? :p

That's correct isn't it?
Shirley the "cross wind limit" is the maximum demonstrated cross wind tested during the aircraft's certification process???:hmm:

I fly a 150 aerobat ... have just checked the P.O.H. and ...... there is no cross-wind limit stated!!! Unless I'm also suffering from ex-party syndrome (well done Whirly) and missed it I may take my personal limit to 40 knots crosswind too (Ok not really able ) .. are there any threads on this new tax on aviation fuel which may prematurely end my flying hobby? ............anyone for tennis?

Tried to go flying on Friday, gave up because of crosswind, instructor landed and that was that.

Then the instructor told me about the time he had to land in a 55kt crosswind. Had to, because the aeroplane (a Shackleton which was on an S&R mission but became a victim itself) had become broken such that they only had one go at putting it down.

He says they took out just one row of runway lights and considered it a good landing!

any increase? I have landed in a 50 knot but that was a 747 and someone else P1!!!

Yes they do. Actually you always try to land and take off into wind which is normally easy. However, if the site restricts you it is quite possible to do so out of wind but you have to be careful as it is trickier. The crosswind limit is actually determined by the amount of cyclic authority available, as you obviously have to be stationary as you let it down on to the ground. If you don't have enough sideways cyclic control available to hold it in one place as you touch down, then you have to turn into wind where the control range availability is much greater.

Oh yes… no problem. I’ve landed on one wheel, having had the others shot off, in a 200kt, 90 degree crosswind on top of a Tsunami wave, avoiding the gaping crack of a huge earthquake to the left and wake vortex from the Space Shuttle on the right………………………………in a Tomahawk.............with asymetric flap………......Twice that day!

If you tell studes today that........they'll never believe you:E

straight up and thats a fact!
 

They don't know they're born!!!
However .... I know someone who can beat that claim ..... where are you Ferryair .? come in ...Ferryair......Ferryair?

matelot asked:
"Do those things with the whirly bits on top ever experience crosswinds on t/o or landing? Can't they always point into wind and in reality don't even know what a crosswind is?"

And muffin replied:
"Yes they do. Actually you always try to land and take off into wind which is normally easy. However, if the site restricts you it is quite possible to do so out of wind but you have to be careful as it is trickier. The crosswind limit is actually determined by the amount of cyclic authority available, as you obviously have to be stationary as you let it down on to the ground. If you don't have enough sideways cyclic control available to hold it in one place as you touch down, then you have to turn into wind where the control range availability is much greater."

You also have to consider the effects of the wind on the tail rotor. If you're landing with a crosswind from the left, you can get "tail rotor breakaway", which roughly means the tail rotor stops working properly, so that the pedals won't keep you straight! I always thought this was LTE (loss of tail rotor effectiveness), but I've recently been told the two phenomena are slightly different...for those who understand about this or care. The R22 doesn't seem to suffer from this much, and I've never experienced it. But I've been told that it can definitely be a problem in other helicopters. So yes, as Muffin said, you always try to land into wind. However, you can make your approach crosswind, and then turn into wind as you come to a hover...which you can't do with f/w really!

You also need to be careful starting up in a strong crosswind, as you can get blade sailing and chop off your tail! The direction the helicopter is facing and the way the rotor blades turn makes a difference as to whether this happens, but if I think about that too much my head hurts.

Anyway, to avoid all these nasty unpleasantnesses, and having to work out the likelihood of them occurring, we hover-lovers take off and land into wind if we can. :ok: And why not? After all, we don't need runways. :ok: :ok: :ok:

50 knot crosswind? that's easy in a Cessna! Just land ACROSS the runway, simple :ok:

Exactly my point Capt Flash :ok:

Regarding max. demonstrated - thats what it is: demonstrated.
Furthermore, for certification the max demonstrated is completed without any corrective action ie. sideslip or otherwise cross control input.

It should thus be an easy task to land an aircraft above the max demonstrated x-wind component.

I have the same problem at EGNM. Even when the weather seems fine and nothing serious on the TAF. They are good with excuses.

Im a PPL so, i hire them out, they dont let us go if the vis is less than 15k, and if the crosswind component is more than 14kt, they get very funny bout it, even though the Robin limit is 18kt.

They are so expensive and find any excuse not to let you go. I haven't flown for 4 weeks now.

I no you have to be safe, but they take the biscuit sometimes, I think if the weather is in safe limits of the aircraft, pilot, and within the qualification of the licence, I don't see a problem.

14kt crosswind is not an unreasonable club imposed limit for low hour pilots, or low currency pilots.

I'll quite happily accept a higher crosswind, but not if I haven't flown in the last month. I find that the ability to deal with strong crosswinds is one of the first skills to be hit by a lack of currency.

Again, 15km viz is not unreasonable for a lower hour/low currency pilot who is navigating by DR in an area that they are not familiar with. Certainly 10km by DR in an unfamiliar area isn't much fun, if you're trying to avoid controlled airspace etc. So 15km gives a reasonable margin for a low hour/currency pilot.

Obviously as a pilots experience and currency improves, they need to be able to remove these restrictions (by proving their ability with an instructor onboad, and maintaining currency), but as a general club rule, I don't think these figures are unreasonable.

dp

I was flying at 40kts headwind at FL065. Does it count?:)

Oh come on, I was flying in a 40kt headwind today at 2000ft! Made the old Robin seem a bit sluggish...

The real fun was my best crosswind landing to date - 20kt crosswind, directly across the runway. The Robin has a demonstrated max of 22kt and I can see why. This was also my first wing down landing in anger - I was always taught to crab but to be honest the wing down landing was a fantastic revelation. But at 20kt crosswind I had pretty much full rudder deflection, so I can see why 22kt was the max!

Tim

Landed a few times in 35-40 kts - pretty much straight down the rwy, I hasten to add, however ! Actually, the taxiing is the interesting part in this kind of wx :eek:

Where I learned to fly and where I fly now, quite a bit of wind is pretty much the norm. I find it sad and not very productive, that FTOs don't make use of a benign x-wind situation to teach their students how to handle the a/c. In the real world, you will land in x-wind and it's better to be trained for that than doing the trainig on your, errr, first x-wind landing as PIC. :=

In any case, all POH's I've ever seen carry a note underneath the 'Max demonstrated crosswind' saying something to the effect 'the above value does not constitute a limitation'.

PS: I have, to agree with some others here that probably the best x-wind a/c I've ever flown is the Robin. Amazing what this thing can handle !

It's the pilot's limit that matters.

Where I fly they'd let me up with a 15kt crosswind according to the rules ... but there's no way I'd take off in that.

(I go flying for fun. That wouldn't be fun, even if I did manage not to bend the aircraft.)

What has so far been missing from this discussion are the ever-present health and safety and legal retribution considerations that are associated with all businesses these days.

i.e. If the TAF forecasts a wind increase and the student (or whoever) has a crash/incident etc, during the following 'investigation' the authorising instructor and ultimately the school will be in trouble for ignoring it. This will be the case even if the wind at the time of the accident was less than forecast, less than the limits etc etc.

Regardless of the fact that every pilot knows meteorology is about as close to witchcraft you can get without actually buying a broom and a black cat!:ugh: Civillian courts, juries and lay people generally still assume its all very predictable, especially as the highly trained 'Met man' says so!

Hence, 'Beware the lawyers':= has to be the attitude of the day and so we can expect in aviation as in every other walk of life a continually more conservative attitude to, well, pretty much everything!

We used to say 'If you believe a Met report I can sell you the Brooklyn bridge' these days its more like 'If you dont believe your Met report, you'll wind up swinging in the wind underneath the Brooklyn bridge!'

Regards to all
Xraf:ok:

It may also be pedantic but the 152 does not have a crosswind LIMIT it has a demonstarted crosswird component NOT a LIMIT. And my POH says 17 KNOTS..... DEMONSTRATED.

True that it's demonstrated not limiting, though I wonder what a court would say if you had been advised that no test pilot had demonstrated a capability beyond X knots and you exceeded that and damaged the aircraft.

I was taught C152 was 12kts, so that tallies with 15mph quoted above. It's a big issue with my home base - runway 01/19, typical wind 240/10-15: it was fine when runway 06/24 was still open...

Tim

XL, you don't make it clear at what stage of the game you are.

Not flying because of that wind and crosswind component does not seem to make a lot of sense as others have said unless you are an early solo pilot who needs to do more solo circuit consolidation.

The new year looks promising, only 5 days old and I am already agreeing with Bose-X, what is the world coming to!

There are a gazillion threads on crosswinds etc.

The demonstrated crosswind is exactly that. It ain't a limit, it is nothing legal other than a certification requirement.

At best it is some guidance.

Happy (crosswind) landings.

Yadda yadda, what is with Brits always hiding behind what a court might say! You will be talking with a yank twang next and never leaving the house in case you get taken to court for farting in the street.
There is no crosswind limit on a 152. The demontsrated componed was just what was available to the test pilot on the day. Do you really think they sat and waited for a mega windy day?
If you are current and capable you can put an aircraft down way beyond the "demonstrated" cross wind. When I had my 152 I put it down in 30+ kts straight accross the runway on a regular basis and still had rudder authourity. I still do the same with my 172 as the runway still points the same way.
What a dull life we would lead if always fearfull of the scumbag lawyers! Its not a police state its a laywer state.

Bose - are you sure you weren't reading your POH for the 172* or a PA28? The demonstrated crosswind component (which Cessna say should not be considered limiting) for a C152 is 12, TWELVE knots NOT 17! 17kts is the limit for a PA28 and 20kts for a DA40.
* I have never seen the POH for, or flown a 172 so cannot give the figure in the POH and don't have access to one to check but I am absolutely certain that it is 12 knots for the C152 having not only read the POH but also recently been chatting to the CFI about it and he has thousands of hours in 152s.

I have a fair bit of experience. Landed a 152 in a lot worse than 15....the club had stopped flying to everyone. At the end of the day it's their airctaft and my licence so sods law

My 152 manual says 17kts. I have more than a thousand on hours on that aircraft alone. But whatever figure it may be it still does not say LIMIT. I was merely making a pedantic point. There are enough rules and regulations in aviation without making up more!!1