Where does a downwind join officially start?
 

I was recently flying north towards my destination airfield whose ATC have an ATZ but no radar.

Lets say the runway runs east/west and the westerly runway was in use. I was instructed to report downwind left for r/w 27. As I reached this point and just before making the call I noticed another aircraft turning downwind left to right ahead of me. This aircraft was in the circuit and had just reached circuit height in the crosswind leg. I followed the aircraft along the downwind leg and completed the circuit, landing as normal.

On the ground the other pilot suggested I should have joined the downwind leg further west as this would have reduced the opportunity for conflict. I did not disagree, but in reality would still have only called downwind left 27 at the same point on the circuit rectangle. I was surprised ATC did not warn of the other aircraft in the circuit especially having no radar.

I have no argument with the other pilot or his logic, but my question to the forum is : was I wrong to route for a downwind join as I did? Should I have gone much further to the west ? If so how far is much further? Or was I ok to head directly to the start of the downwind leg, and the possibility of conflicts with traffic in the crosswind leg is just something to be wary of?

I don't know if there is an official join point on downwind but I would aggree with the other pilot "join at an extended west downwind position, that way you would not be in a head on conflict with circuit traffic. (Noise abatement permitting)
If your instruction from ATC was (report) downwind, I don't think that means (join) at that point, rather "report once you are established there".
Perhaps an expert will put me right, but we have a similar circuit pattern, north of Edinburgh accepting similar directions of joining to 25/07.

Trevor.

Good question...

I personaly join where cross wind meets down wind. If i see conflicting traffic coming from the cross wind then I orbit in to the down wind. Mind you if there is a tower he/she should at least tell you of other traffic in the circuit. If it is FIS then I would expect/hope all pilots are making the relevant calls whilst in the circuit. This is one reason I like overhead joins.

FAA land also has a good method which is joining 45 degrees to down wind at the point where cross wind meets down wind. Usualy you get a good view of whats coming from cross wind at that angle and have time to either slow up or chuck a couple of turns in to buy some time.

Was the other aircraft the only other circuit traffic? If so I think i would have asked for a left base join on initial contact. If that was refused, then i would have made a standard overhead join, at 1500'QFE, assuming a 1000' circuit. Descend dead side with a 180 left turn onto cross wind. I find its much easier to slot in with circuit traffic this way, and if the base call was refused then there must have been traffic? As far as the definition of the down wind leg goes, i think it starts at 45 degrees to the up-wind threshold? I hope in all the fuss and confusion you didnt forget to do a full BUMPFITCCH? Including a good long blast of carb heat?

Isn't a standard overhead join, 1000 feet above circuit height?

I think that with a few more hours under your belt and a bit more confidence you might challenge an instruction like that next time.
It is never good practice to join and make a ninety degree turn thus reducing visibility and options in a high work load area.
As others have suggested, a left base or over head re-join would have been a safer and more practical option. Alternatively, you may have considered extending out to to the West well beyond the circuit before making your ninety degree turn.
Personally, I would say that irrespective of any ATC instruction, you are the Commander of the aircraft and you should challenge any instruction which you may feel compromises the safety of your flight. If the instruction stands then it is down to you to apply your own safety margins (ie join from a more Westerley position). Any unusual manoevre which reduces your ability to see in the circuit is best avoided.
You probably learned a good lesson and probably won't forget it.

If you are joining from the south and the circuit is to the south, then at 1000' you would fly right through the down wind leg:confused: Surely 1500, 500' over the downwind leg and 500' within the vertical limit of the ATZ would be better:confused:

Piston,

HourBuilder said 1000ft ABOVE circuit height....so he wouldn't be flying through the downwind leg.

It is also my understanding that a STANDARD overhead join is 1000ft above circuit height. An overhead join can be done at other heights, but it isnt a STANDARD one.

I could be wrong on this too.....I just seem to remember it from the CAA's VFR guide.

dp

Do you ever do overhead joins in Ireland dp?

I joined overhead at Birr, much to the resident microlighters amusement:)

Early morning dyslexia!
 

Sorry hour builder, i wasn't reading your post correctly, you are right 1000' over circuit height is standard. I suppose I have just got used to coming in at 1500' to save time! I do also like to know that any passing planes not on frequency should be at least 500' over my head, that does seem to make sense to me, what are your thoughts on that?

I would have thought downwind begins at the point it meets crosswind. So if you are in the circuit you climb out, turn crosswind and then turn downwind. Anything further out is outside the circuit, and therefore can't be downwind?

If ATC told me to report downwind, I would assume I can join it anyway I want, but would probably go for an extended downwind position as I don't fancy the idea of flying straight towards someone who is on crosswind. There doesn't seem to be anything implied in their instruction other than report when you are established. This happens all the time where I fly, although downwinds are quite unusual - crosswind and left base are common.

ATC are trying to be helpful by giving you a more expeditious join than overhead - if you don't want to do it then ask for something else. I would have thought they would warn you about other traffic in the circuit though.

This is, strictly, illegal in the UK where 'all turns within the ATZ are to be made in the circuit direction' (it's somewhere in the ANO, no doubt bookworm will come along in a minute and tell us where!)

Tim

The 45 degree turn in is not a turn whilst "in" the circuit it is your enterance to the circuit. Although I guess it is all down to an individuals interpretation.

I didn't say in the circuit, I said in the ATZ.

ANO Rules of the Air Rule 17 (Rules for avoiding aerial collisions):

i.e. unless ground signals (or radio information?!) indicate a RH circuit is in force. Though I admit that 'the airspace in which the pattern is formed' is not necessarily coterminous with the ATZ, I suspect a court would interpret it as such, in the absence of any other definition.

Tim

Yes we do, but there isn't anything very standard about them!

Not that many airfields insist on a particular joining method, so it's a case of just useing what you think is most appropriate. If you think a standard o/h join is the most appropriate then that is generally fine.

An obvious exception is Weston who have a non-standard overhead join. Or at least they did before they got their new class C airspace. I haven't been in since they got that, so things may have changed.

dp

Thanks for all the replies (although those on overhead joins are getting off topic)

Tony halsal said
I have about 200 hours over 10 years and I usually am asked to report downwind at my home airfield, an International airport in class D controlled airspace.

Nevertheless, the question still remains, if I had aligned with the downwind leg even 5 miles from the runway, I would still normally only call downwind left at the point where the crosswind leg meets the downwind leg. i.e. when the threshold of the reciprocal runway is at about 45 degrees when viewed from the cockpit window. This would still allow a potential collision with the crosswind climbing aircraft appearing to my left rather than in front of me. Other than actually seeing me approaching from the right, this aircraft climbing into the circuit would not know of my presence until I called "downwind left" at which point he could collide.

So we still come back to the issue that at this airfield and other similar ones, the ATC service is analogous to a FIS. It's still up to all of us to keep a VERY good look out.

Of course this entire thread could be repeated for base joins ie aircraft routing towards left base and reporting "left base" on arrival, risk collision with aircraft completing their downwind leg.

Finally, tmmorris's quote from the ANO was interesting. I didn't know about all turns being to the left.

Unless you've switched frequency the plane in the circuit will have heard you call for joining instructions and that you were told to report downwind, so he should have a pretty good idea of your whereabouts.

If you joined the frequency after that planes last call you might not be aware of his position, but there's a pretty good chance you would have heard him being cleared for a touch-and-go and know he's in potential conflict with you. So hopefully it's not quite a s bad as you make out.

And I think unless you are flying IFR or have a radar service then it's 'see and avoid' even if you are talking to an ATC unit with radar.

Hmm, interesting. I was taught to call downwind when passing abeam the threshold of the reciprocal runway. Is this wrong? :eek:

Incidentally, if I was approaching at 90 degrees to the downwind leg, I would always request a base leg join or, if not practical for any reason, reposition to something nearer to the downwind direction whilst still outside the ATZ.

Doesn't apply if I'm under radar control, of course - then I do what the hell they tell me!

That's my understanding too, Waldo.

A lot of other stuff in Pumper's reply confused me too, but that's easily done.

As to all turns in the ATZ in circuit direction - I know you're right but if I'm approaching from the south to join 27 lefthand downwind then how do I turn from 000 to 090 without doing a right turn? Not challenging what Tim said but genuinely asking how to do it.

OK a number of points here, yes Downwind call should be abeam the downwind end of the R/W (or when passing abeam the threshold of the reciprocal runway, which is the same thing). Turns should be in the same direction as circuit direction, and to avoid turning against circuit direction you should therefore be outside the ATZ before you turn right to position downwind, though it is permissable to join as descibed by turning against the circuit direction with ATC clearance, but when joining you should always be giving way to any established circuit traffic so clearedfinals should have been giving way to the guy already in the circuit. As said before, best way would have been to go for either an overhead join (and though it would be as well to state this, he just needed to call when finally downwind) or to ask for a L base join.:8
Note also that asking you to call downwind is not a clearance to join downwind so it should be queried.

Joining DW in the UK as I recall is to join the circuit abeam the upwind numbers.

In the USA the 45 should bring you onto downwind at the midpoint of the runway.

Englishal - This is my understanding also
 

My understanding of American way is "midfield downwing on the 45" - I much prefer the clarity that this picture gives me to that when I am asked to join overhead.

Sorry to hijack the thread but while we are on the subject of joins can I ask what people interpret as the correct way to carry out an overhead join?

i:e what height to join at (?midfield overhead), when and where to turn, when to descend (deadside but in what direction?) and where you join the standard pattern?

Thanks,
SB

I was taught the following:

1. Join at 2000 feet above the airfield

2. Position yourself so that you're crossing the runway threshold (? that doesn't look like the correct spelling) still at 2000 feet on a base heading towards the deadside

3. Once on the deadside begin descent and a 180 degree turn to end up on the crosswind leg crossing the upwind end of the runway at circuit height

4. Fly the crosswind leg until in a position to turn downwind still at circuit height, and slotting into any traffic already in the circuit.

All great in theory, but the theory (and every diagram of an OHJ I've ever seen) conveniently ingnores an approach to the airfield from the deadside, which statistically should occur on ~50% of joins, but sod's law says its far greater:rolleyes:

What is the problem with joining from the deadside?

If you know it is a left hand circuit - you keep everything on your left (10/11 oclock) and make all turns to the left. Reverse (obviously) if it is a right hand
(1/2 o'clock).

[QUOTE=vancouv;2940504]I was taught the following:

3. Once on the deadside begin descent and a 180 degree turn to end up on the crosswind leg crossing the upwind end of the runway at circuit height
QUOTE]


...and I was given a right old telling-off during a test once for doing just that. The examiner said that as there were high-performance aircraft operating at the airfield in question that they can easily achieve circuit height by the upwind end of the fairly lengthy runway and in his opinion the CORRECT place to crosss ANY runway before joining the downwind leg is at the mid-point. Then the correct call is 'late downwind'. He still signed me off though. I've mulled over this one over the years.

There was sadly a fatal accident at North Weald a few years ago involving traffic joining the circuit so it isn't just of academic interest.

If I'm joining from the deadside, I do so AT circuit height and crossing at the runway midpoint, rather than descending to achieve circuit height by the time I'm downwind. The rationale here is that you can then see all circuit traffic against the sky, above the horizon, not lost in the ground clutter below you.

TheOddOne

I know what you mean tony, and agree its not a problem in practise, but you never see the method written down or shown in a diagram.

Effectively, if you join from deadside you will never reach the overhead, you will instead join on a tight decending deadside upwind/crosswind (as you say keeping everything on your left hand side in a LH circuit or vice-versa)

No - many do it this way, this is actually a crosswind join, it is a more practical way of doing it, but remember the overhead join was origionaly designed for non radio aircraft to come overhead and look at the signal square, so you would not know where the dead side was until you had reached the overhead (airfield on your LH side until you know the circuit direction of course). Correctly, if joining from the dead side you would go overhead then do a full 180 (+/- depending exactly what heading you joined from) then let down dead side.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure if this is covered here, but my preferred join would be a long downwind,ie straight into the downwind at circuit height from a fair distance out,say a couple of miles.
It gives me a chance to familiraise myself with traffic and also the airfield.
Is this OK?
Lister:)

I'll probably get jumped on here, but I still think the military circuit join through initials has a lot to be said for it.

Incidentally I was very grateful that Compton Abbas still has a signals square this morning, as I was having radio problems. Joining overhead and looking a the signals square potentially saved me from a mid-air if there had been other traffic at the time (which there wasn't!).

If you run an airfield with a signals square and are contemplating getting rid of it - please don't!

Tim

Like mine the other day!

Should I have come in at 1000ft above the circuit height overhead, done a 180 to come back over the active runway threshold and then decended to circuit height whilst turning to crosswind on the dead side?

Or, as I did, simply enter at the crosswind at the upwind end of the runway whilst keeping a good lookout for traffic?

I bet there's an official answer, but the CAA pdf document doesnt seem to have this situation in...

You should join overhead at 1000ft above the circuit. Keep the airfield to your left if it's a LH circuit (right otherwise) and circle at that altitude until above the numbers of the landing runway. Then descend deadside &c. as above.
That gives you a chance to read the signals square and/or windsock (see my last post!) and avoids descending until you have definitely seen everyone.
Tim

YES

Many airfields have noise sensitive 'dead sides' hence the need to arrive at altitude. Circuits can be aligned for the consideration of neighbours and screaming into the dead side at circuit height may just take you over nuisance neighbour property.
OK, I am not talking about large airports here - but certainly very many 'strips' have noise considerations on the 'dead side.'

When I was taught I had the OHJ rammed down my throat and maybe that is why I am still a very strong believer that it, like all flying, should be carried out correctly and with precision. My only argument with the CAA leaflet is that it was designed many years ago before the advent of high performance PFA and BMAA types that can get to and beyond circuit height before reaching the numbers and I personally believe as another poster said that crossing the runway on the numbers maybe needs reviewing.

I was taught to arrive at the overhead with the active runway at my ten o'clock (for left hand circuit) or two o clock (for right hand circuit) and make the 180 in a gentle rate one turn in the same direction as the circuit so that arriving back over the downwind numbers set me up perfectly to reduce power for a neighbour friendly descent over the 'dead side.' I confess to never seeing this in a formal publication - but I will refer to Thoms tonight.

the daddy - My post covered this exactly, as have the last two posters.:ugh:

Lister Noble
Generally OK if coordinated on the R/T but may depend on local rules.:ok:

Thanks for putting this one straight for me guys,

I did read the posts beforehand but obviously needed it clarified in my own head!

Now I know!

By the way this was the first dead-side OHJ I have made, but it's all experience!

And do you do this even if you know there is other traffic joining the circuit, notably from other directions? Because if you do you're putting yourself straight in the path of traffic descending to your level on a deadside descent. Also, because it's non-standard, you'll be joining downwind at a point other than where other pilots on downwind will expect to see you.
I really don't understand what people's problem is with the standard overhead join as illustrated at the CAA url quoted above. It's STANDARD. If everyone used it we wouldn't have all these thousand-and-one personalised versions that each individual thinks is correct.
NS

By all means do this when you are confident that there is no other circuit traffic, or you are confident that you can see and remain well clear of any existing circuit traffic. But please don't do it when you know there is traffic already established in the circuit, especially at a training airfield. It can be at the very least disconcerting for solo students and disruptive to instructors teaching circuits. At worst it is downright dangerous. We get loads of people who seem to think it's fine just to give a call on the radio saying they're inbound, set the QFE and blunder in however they like. We even get people landing opposite direction to the runway in use!

As for high perf a/c reaching 1000ft by the upwind end of the runway, that's only true of airfields with quite long runways, and in any case, if you're taking off in such an aircraft at an A/G or AFIS airfield, you ought to be listening to the radio to find out where any conflicting traffic is, and looking to check that the airspace you're about to occupy is clear.

NS

Why I like Deadside joins...
 

I do deadside joins when I can. You don't put yourself in line with opposite direction traffic for two reasons:

1) Joining from the Dead Side you pass over the upwind numbers. Joining from OH you pass over the downwind numbers. Or you should do....

2) If you are "ahead" in the join from the deadside, the traffic joining using the OHJ should descend and join behind you. If you are miles out then they should join in front of you. You are already at circuit height, the OH joiner will be above circuit height.

If you don't do a deadside join then you pass over the airfield at exactly the same height as the OH joiner, but in opposite direction, then you have to fart around turning umpteen times before carrying out an OHJ and hence put everyone at more risk....in my opinion.

1. How do you know you are ahead of or behind the OHJ traffic unless you can see it?
2. Yes, OHJ traffic joins at the same height, but opposite direction joiners are horizontally separated by the length of the runway.
3. You don't have to "fart around turning umpteen times" if joining in the overhead from the deadside (unless umpteen = 2). You turn once in the overhead then into the deadside descent, always turning in the same direction as the circuit.
The safety of all joining arrangements at uncontrolled airfields is dependent on traffic making accurate and informative radio calls at the correct point, and everyone listening out so that they get a good picture of the traffic. I find not enough people ask for more detailed traffic info - e.g. if you want to do a direct deadside join and you know someone else is joining but aren't sure exactly where they are, why not ask? Very few people do in my experience.
The bottom line for me is that the safest option is to have a STANDARD way of joining which everyone understands. OHJ isn't necessarily the best or only way, but it's a lot better than having everyone using different methods of joining, many of which are completely unknown to others.
NS

Just noticed this thread. I have been using the Standard OHJ for more years than I care to remember, basically because that is what I was taught and it was the subject of CAA procedures etc. I am now a trifle worried that there are alternative views and even alternative methods being implemented to save time, fuel etc. Like some of the last posters have stated, if we just use the Standards already in place, even if they are old, then we all know where we are meant to be.