When to give up
 

Hi folks

I hope this is the right forum for this sort of question. Apologies if not.

I've recently started learning to fly, probably a bit later in life than most people (40-something). I've read some people's postings about their learning experiences, and I have to say that it's disheartened me a bit -- I'm not making anything like the same kind of progress that most people seem to. I appreciate that I've only flown four hours, but at that stage some people seem to be ready, perhaps with considerable assistance, to attempt takeoffs and landings. I can just about manage to keep the plane in roughly a straight line; anything more seems like a distant dream.

I guess this is partly the result of my age, but the fact that I don't have a lot of skill in the coordination or balance department doesn't help any.

I'm not expecting to be Biggles after a few hours in the air, but at the same time I can't spend an unlimited time learning to fly -- I just don't have the money. I will count it a failure if I spend a great deal of money, and yet never learn to fly well enough even to achieve a PPL. On the other hand, if I pack it in now, well, I've had a good time and I haven't spent a vast sum of money. Naturally my instructors are reassuring, and point out that just about anybody can do it in the end, with sufficient effort. That would be fine if I had a limitless supply of time and money, but I don't.

So my question is this, really: at what point will I be able to determine if my lack of progress is such that becoming competent before backruptcy is unlikely? How long did it take other people to start to feel that they were in control of the plane, and not the other way around? Is there anything one can do on the ground that contributes in any way to better success in the air?

I have no difficulty with the theoretical aspects, or with navigation, or procedures. It just doesn't feel like I will ever be able to master the important stuff -- flying the plane properly.

Any advice gratefully received. Thanks.

hi mad...
 

1: Your age should absolutely NOT prevent you from reaching PPL standard within a reasonable period...but your poor co-ordination might.
2: Personally I would have your next couple of hours at a different club or school.... it is just possible that your present instructor is not ideal for your particular needs.
3: Don't give up without a fight......... but IF 2 or more instructors hint or say that you're going to struggle.... keep the remnants of your dignity and £££££££££!

Good Luck anyway, BM:sad:

I am 63 and got my licence a few weeks after my birthday this May, I started in August last year.
Took me ages to go solo,ie around 18 hrs but finished PPL in 53 hrs.
Instructors make a hell of a difference,it all depends whether you gel or not,they may be brilliant with other people,you may like them ,but they don't work for you.
As suggested try another instructor or even a different school but don't give up hope yet!
Lister:)

Thanks. As it happens, I have some time booked with a different instructor next week, so I'll see what happens.

But really the problem is that no instructor has even remotely hinted that I won't succeed. I'm just comparing my (unremarkable) progress with that of other student pilots. But I presume that flying schools won't lose a paying customer without a fight, and it's not in their interests to be other than encouraging.

I guess the question I need to answer is impossible to answer: how much is it going to cost me to get to test-passing standard? I decided, on no very exact grounds, that I was prepared to spend 6,000 pounds on training and the equipment that goes with it. But I'm a reasonably successful, middle-aged family man, with absolutely nothing to prove, and I can easily find fun things to do with the 5,500 currently left in the kitty. I wouldn't want to spend all my money, and still not be anywhere in sight of completing the training.

What I'm wondering is if there's some way to predict how long it will take to succeed, based on a measure of progress over the first ten hours or so?

I have to agree. Your age should not be a problem at all.

I too think it may be more of an instructor issue. Some instructors are the nicest people in the world, but aren't very good at getting the necessary information across to their students.

I had a number of instructors in my training. Looking back I think I was very lucky that my principal instructor was excellent at getting the required info across to me, in a way that I easily understood.

I had a number of other instructors, that I didn't learn anything from. My PPL could have taken a very long time if it was done mainly with one of them. Some of these instructors were the nicest of people, and some of the other students really liked their methods......but they just didn't teach in a way that I learnt.

Try a different instructor/school. Much better than giving up. There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to attain a PPL.

dp

Looking at the costs, and saying I have £6,000 to spend on training is the wrong way of looking at it in my view.

When you get your licence the bills don't stop.....they continue on as before.

A much better way of looking at it, is saying how much am I willing to spend on flying each year. If you can't afford (or don't want to spend) to continue flying regularly after you get your PPL, then I don't see the point in getting the licence.

Set aside in your own mind, how much you are willing to spend each year.....then it becomes a matter not of how much will it cost me to get the licence, but more a question of when will I be able to forget about bringing an instructor, and be able to go by myself wherever I want.

dp

You've done 4 hours. You really cannot make a judgement that you CANNOT fly after 4 hours. How long did it take you to learn to drive? I seem to recall at 17 I had stacks of lessons.

My philosophy was that after a few trial lessons, I really ENJOYED the experience so I was going to give it a go. I was VERY daunted by the theory (initially) and scared myself to death reading lots of the books and stuff.

After a good few lessons whereby I was handling the aircraft, I began to calm down and feel more comfortable - but I had real problems landing - never consistent - sometimes driving into the runway, sometimes (mostly) flaring much too high. Then one day it just clicked - and its a bit like riding a bike - it will stay with you.

Try not to worry too much about the end result now, unless you are really doing the course on a very tight budget - I didn't complete in the (then) 40 hours as I had decided to stretch the whole thing out and enjoy the learning experience. Some of the 'johnny's' at the club wanted to finish in a week and actually ended up as not so good/safe pilots (IMHO).

In my day (not that long ago), solo was expected at about 10 to 15 hours of dual. Perhaps you need to have a good chat with your instructor (you do only have one instructor & you have hit it off, haven't you?) and tell him your worries. And get a full debrief after each lesson. Then when approaching 10 hours or so, get him to evaluate where you are towards going solo and compared to the average for the club.

I would also urge you to insist on 1-2-1 instruction with the same instructor. Chopping and changing instructors doesn't help as they will each want to revisit what the other has done with you. 2 steps forward, 1 back etc...

Keep at it. If you REALLY want to fly, then you will be able to.

Good luck.

Mark.

Oh, for goodness sake!!!!! And I was going to say something far, far stronger! You have FOUR hours!!!!! That is absolutely nothing!!!!!! I couldn't fly straight and level at four hours. Neither can lots of people. I was about your age, yes, but age has bugger all to do with it, really. People learn at different rates, that's all.

Now, as an instructor - on helicopters, but I started with fixed-wing - if one of my students asked me after they'd done four hours flying how long it would take them to get a PPL, I wouldn't have a clue. What do you think we instructors are, psychic or something? We know that different people learn at amazingly different rates. We know that some people start quickly, and then get stuck later on, and vice-versa. We know it doesn't really matter, and that practically anyone can learn to fly, if they really want to. A huge amount of crap gets discussed on PPRuNe about hours, and hours to solo, and who's doing what at what stage, and I'm a better pilot than you cos I soloed in ten minutes and so on. Most people who can land after four hours are being helped, believe me. It's dead easy to give the controls a little tweak here and there, to give some young lad confidence and make him feel good. Maybe your instructors thought at your age you had more sense and they didn't need to fool you - ever thought of that? Or there was the lad at the flying school today, telling everyone he was in the circuit after four hours; of course he was; with a 600 ft cloudbase we could only do circuits or hover. But it wasn't proving anything except that the weather was crap and he had an instructor with imagination.

However, I agree with dublinpilot - if you only have £6000 to spend on flying, ever, pack it in now. What's the point of getting a PPL and not being able to fly afterwards? What are you doing now? Flying. What will you do when you have your PPL? Fly. There is little difference.

So stop comparing yourself with others, and fly if you want to and can afford to, and stop if you don't.

Oh, and if you really want to know, it took me well over 40 hours to go solo on fixed-wing, and there are people on PPRune who took longer than that. We just tend not to advertise the fact, that's all. Maybe we should, to redress the balance. And you know what? A year or two later, when you're off on your first continental flying trip or whatever, it'll be of no importance whatsoever.

Thank you for the advice, which I appreciate, although it isn't what I wanted to hear :)

The plain fact is that I want to, but can't really afford to. I'm flying now because I realize that, although I can barely afford to, I'll never be more able to afford to than I currently am. I'm flying because I always wanted to fly, because my earliest memories are of wanting to fly, not because I can afford to do it on a long-term basis. Of course, if I win the Lottery or (hah!) get a big pay rise, that may change.

You're right, of course, in that if I can't afford to fly long-term, it makes little difference whether I can get a PPL or not before the money I can justify spending on this runs out.

As an aside, it was the introduction of the NPPL licence scheme that set me off thinking that flying might be something I could just about afford. If one can get and maintain a licence in 32 hours or so training plus six hours a year, that is something that even I could afford. But I now know that virtually nobody could learn to fly competently in 32 hours; and I suspect that one couldn't maintain competence in six hours a year. So why are these hours stipulated??

After four hours??

(In my case an instructor did start to worry that it was taking him too long to teach me the last few seconds of the landing, but I reassured him that I'd expected that, being sufficiently lacking in stuff like hand-eye coordination that I wasn't any good at ball games and so on. But that was at lots more than four hours and I got there in the end.)

Good luck in your flight training. Keep at it.

It's a good thing that you may feel dissapointed with your progress at times, becasue it will make to want to learn even more. Don't get disheartened. You'll have plenty of good days and bad days.

Don't worry what the other student pilots are up to. Who cares if they go solo after 10 hours? If it takes you 20 hours to go solo, then so be it. The feeling that you've really worked for it will make it the more rewarding!

Happy landings,
Tiggermoth

Have you considered learning on motor gliders?
You can get a NPPL for about £3,500 that way (about 55 hours).
Then you can simply do a type conversion to group A if you want to.
Forget doing it in 35 hours - you won't get a NPPL licence in any less time than a PPL licence but you can do it in cheap stuff like motor gliders.
Hinton in the hedges is fairly cheap, if you can get there.

I have about 8 hours and I still wander in straighish and levelish.

How many driving lessons did you have? I bet you didn't think about how bad you were 10% of the way through those, you just thought book another lesson and get the test done.

Don't worry about it too much, just enjoy it for what it is, and don't compare yourself to others, some start slow and figure it out in the end, others start fast and never make it.
The likes of me and you start slow and stay slow :O

Mad Bear

You are absolutely right to think the way you do and brave too.

It is too early to worry yet, but if you are still not happy in another 5/6 hours, perhaps you could consider always flying with an instructor and not gaining your PPL.

That way, you could still enjoy flying.

Whichever way it works out, good luck.

Think back to when you were learning to drive.

You could steer or you could change gear, but not both at the same time. Learning to fly is a bit like that. Eventually it will click.

Don't pay a whole lot of attention to those who tell you that the expense is the same after you have your license - it isn't. For a start you don't have to pay for an Instructor to be up with you. Secondly you don't have to fly from a licensed aerodrome in an aircraft maintained to Public Tranport standards. Lots of people do, but it's certainly not mandatory. You don't even have to learn in that environment, you could get a PPL(M) flying from an unlicensed field on a Permit aircraft.

On the other hand, if you're not enjoying the experience don't let your pride get in the way of calling it a day. Do it because you enjoy it, not because you are trying to prove something.

Mike

We're supposed to do straight lines? :confused:

If you enjoy flying then fly; who cares if it's solo, dual, licensed, SEP, microlight, powered glider thingies?

If you don't enjoy it then that's easy.

Oh, and always, always take Whirly's advice.

If money is tight, gaining a PPL is not the only way to fly. Gliding is much cheaper in the learning stages, but rather time-consuming. You could do a gliding course for a few hundred pounds, and fly solo at the end of it.

The most expensive flying I did was gaining the PPL. i spent around £6,500 in 18 months. Since then, I have been flying about 75 hours a year for a total cost of about £2,500 a year, with a share in a PFA type, from a farm strip. It's a total blast. I have friends who spend considerably more on their golf and sailing habits.

Oh, and I was 53 when I got the PPL.

If you really want to fly, you will find a way to do it.

Good luck. :)

Hang on in there:

I started to learn to fly age 48 with a view to getting my licence by age 50.

I had a sh*te first ten hours, but then it all seemed to come together aided I'm sure by having the same instructor for about 85% of my training (thanks Will)

I (thanks to a particularly mild English winter) got the licence in six months Oct-March.

That was 13 years ago and it just goes on getting better: I'm now retired and can fly all hours God sends instead of being at the mercy of weekends and on-call rotas.

Like everyone else has said four hours ain't nuffink: start to get worried when after 40 hours you're still not doing the take-off.

(only joking)

Safe flying

Cusco

I agree with everything said, above, but thought I'd put my own slant on it.

I've flown more different types of flying machines than most - and every single one was great fun. Microlights, gliders, motorgliders, light aeroplanes, fighters, helicopters - loved them all. But the cost isn't constant, so stick within your means. If you can get twice the flying by going for something cheaper, forget the snob value and do it: particularly if your budget is limited.

Secondly, you are going for hobby flying. I have two hobbies: flying and Jiu Jitsu, both of which I'm reputed to have some skill at. Both of them I enjoyed learning, the latter I teach (and the former people seem to regularly come to me for advice for some strange reason, although I'm not formally an instructor). Yet both, I regularly go and spend time with teachers of all sorts, learning more, improving myself, developing skills. Learning is FUN, as well as regularly frustrating - it also never stops until you do. So, my advice would be not to get hung up on a specific objective - treat learning to fly as your hobby, budget to do it at a rate and in an environment that you can manage, and have FUN.

Do it that way, and you'll probably learn faster anyway - as well as enjoying yourself more. When you get to a licence (of whatever form) you'll be less supervised, but still having fun, and still learning.


Incidentally, I've been flying for 17 years, and practicing Jiu Jitsu for 18 - and have firmly reached the conclusion that I'll never master either. This worries me - because it means that my time to practice both is limited and I wish it wasn't. But not that much.

G

Edited to say, I have a student at the moment - in my Jiu Jitsu club. He is a yellow belt, agonising over the fact that his inability to perform a particular technique (forward rolling Ukemi for those in the know) is stopping him making orange belt - sounding not entirely unlike mad_bear!. In the meantime, he's one of my best students - everything else he's doing is developing brilliantly, and by the time he's cracked that he'll probably leapfrog orange and make green belt! Anybody see anything wrong with that? I don't, he's just an individual, and thus on an individual learning curve.

Mad Bear,

Don't worry, I spent the first 4 hours just trying to find a way in to the cockpit.

Good luck sir.

Always, always heed what J.A.F.O. advises above: Whirly's right.
I have nothing wise to add to that already said, but would like to add my 2d's worth anyway. Since you've indicated you've always wanted to fly, I think that once you get past the feeling that in four hours you haven't learnt anything, you'll probably become so absorbed you just won't notice that it gets into the blood and under the fingernails and - oops - there you are - totally addicted.
Few of us can afford it. We just find ways of doing it. Gliding, motor gliding, shares in a Permit aeroplane, microlights...exploiting new friends (yes, they come with the package and they're free) are but a few examples that come to mind. It might not be easy if you have family commitments, but casual conversations with colleagues at work suggest that we all have different perceptions of what is necessary for the soul once the body is supported - and what we are prepared to pay. Those with a passion, whether it be for fishing, golf or jet skiing, seem to do more on less and are happier for it. Unscientific and simplistic, I know, but I suspect you're already headed in this direction and you know it.
It took me about forty glider flights to acquire four hours and I had a wide selction of instructors to boot. I was probably too stupid to analyse it, but if I had, I'd have not reached a more settled learning phase which led, over the years, to where I am now: plenty of time logged and still as daft as a brush, but with fond memories of each phase of my flying. It all just grew, like Topsy.
What's a little odd is that when I began, I coudn't really afford the gliding lessons. Now I can't really afford the Avgas. Curious, 'cos I've been flying throughout.
Please spend a bit more money then come back to us.

Don't know where you are based (your profile says "London") but if you fancy a flight from North London you're welcome to come along with me for free when I am not doing anything more specific. Don't know if it'll help much, though at least you can practise flying straight and level for free. I do have an autopilot but it isn't voice activated.

Put another way, if you decide to give it all up at least you can get airborne and if you decide to keep going I can at least show you an easy way to get Notams...

skills and coordination?
 

I have found in my (so far) short flying career, that when a specific skill has been difficult to master, it's because I have not grasped, or am not using a fundamental concept.

For example:

taxiing - looking towards the horizon, rather than straight in front of the aircraft

turning accurately in the circuit - picking my horizon reference point on the wing before I commence the turn

bouncing on take off (tailwheel) - getting the stick forward before opening the throttle!

losing directional control on landing (tailwheel) - keep that stick right back!!!!

PFL's - getting and keeping the 30-45° view to the landing point

X-wind landings - know and understand (and don't forget!) what each of the controls really does for you on finals.

etc.

I'm sure some people's description of the 'key skill' will be different, but if you are struggling with something, then recognise that you have missed a key element, try to find out what it is and then focus on that element for a couple of tries - even if your instructor is helping with some of the other tasks.

As an example, my confidence in X-wind landings got a huge boost when my tailwheel check pilot took me to one of his mate's strip that had a 20-25 knot X-wind and made me approach and fly down the strip without landing. We probably could never have landed the thing without a ground loop at the end, but the exageration of all the control inputs required really helped drive home what everything was for.

Last of all - dream through each skill in your idle moments! Even virtual practice makes perfect (I think! - I'll tell you if I get there! ;))

Don't give up!

A

mad bear,

OK, now I know where you're coming from. :ok:

I think what you're doing is putting extraordinary pressure on yourself to do the PPL in minimum hours because you can't really afford it. I really, really wish people didn't have to do that, and many do. You can't relax because you're worrying about all the money you're burning.....and guess what, you can't learn to fly unless you relax! :{

mad bear, you just have to take the pressure off yourself. I wrote what I did yesterday after a hard day's instructing, and I was really too tired to think clearly. Although I meant most of it, it was a little too black and white. Don't, whatever you do, believe those who say you should always listen to Whirly!!!!!! But as you'll hopefully have realised by now, four hours isn't enough to know how long it'll take you to get your PPL. OK, maybe it'll take you the UK average of 60-70 hours, or maybe more; it took me 90 hours to get my PPL(A).

Option 1. Chill out. Enjoy the flying. When you run out of money, go away and save some more. You're young - people learn to fly in their 50s, 60s, and 70s. What's the rush?

Option 2. Switch to gliders or microlights, which are a bit cheaper.

Option 3. Borrow the money to get your PPL(A), then get a share in a permit aircraft, or switch to microlights then, or ask on here about all the other cheaper ways to fly.

Option 4. Buy lots of lottery tickets.;) :)

I suspect others will give you more options.:ok:

As for the minimum hours requirement, remember it's a legal minimum. Some of those people will have flown other types of machines, or be ex-military, or been flying as passengers in parents' aircraft since they were born or something. You're got to have a legal minimum somewhere. Though many agree with you that 32 hours is ridiculous. And the six hours a year? Again, you've got to have a legal minimum. As a helicopter pilot, I reckon I can just about maintain my fixed-wing currency to fly non-demanding aircraft in nice weather on about a hour every couple of months, so long as I realise my limitations. Why should I have to do more because some other people need to? The problem is that people perceive the legal minimum as what everyone can do, and they're very different.

OH, just BTW, people do occasionally win the lottery and learn to fly. One of my helicopter students won a cool million and a half. And there's penniless little me (all my dosh went on helicopter training) giving him advice on what helicopter to buy!

Some have hinted on it, but I would take some time and really think about doing a NPPL on fixed wing microlight.

Plus points are:

1. You can get a licence in 25 hours (most people do it in 30).
2. The theory is a lot simpler.
3. Lessons are cheaper.
4. You can buy a fixed wing microlight from £3500! And if you train in your own aircraft the lessons are usually £45 per hour.
5. You can buy into schemes where for a small cash investment, you can hire a decent 4 stroke microlight for £30 per hour wet!
6. You can fold the wings up, put it on a trailer and keep it at home, or pay less for hangerage.
7. Running cost is small (I use 14lph in the cruise at maximum weight).
8. Landing fees are cheaper (Sandown is £6).
9. Modern Microlights can cruise at 140kts, and have more room than a 152.
10. You can maintain it yourself.

Negative points:

1. Microlights can only take 2 people.
2. You are restricted to Daytime VFR flying.
3. Weight can be an issue in some Microlights (my Rans S6 can carry 30 stone of occupants and 3 hours of fuel).
4. As it's a permit aircraft (and an NPPL-M licence ), you will need to get written permission to fly abroad (I’m off to Africa next year).

Running costs based on my Rans S6ES 582.

Fuel/oil = £14 per hour.
Permit = £180 PA
Insurance = £622 PA
Maintenance = average £130 PA
Costs of keeping it at a small strip can range between £30 - £150 per month.


So for £6,000 you could have a licence and your own plane! It might not be the prettiest or fastest thing at the airfield, but it gets you in the air, and really thats all that matters ;)

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

All brilliant advice, esp Rans flyer's bit. Mind you you could do the same with motor gliders or for slightly more by buying your own PFA type and training in it (but that's probably a step too far in most cases).

It does worry me though, that we all seem to think that you have to have money to continue flying after you gain your PPL and that if you don't that you shouldn't bother. Rubbish! Like Paris Dakar say's, so what if there are periods that you can't afford it? Or even if you never fly again! I know at least one person who learned to fly because he saw it a challenge, gained a lot from the experience but was happy to walk away at the end and never fly again. We all have different motivations and we all have our own minds, so take all the advice and cherry pick the bits that suit your situation.

Have fun and don't beat yourself up if progress seems slow at times.

SS :ok:

Yes, I think that Ransflyer is right.

Microlighting is often misunderstood. Many people think it's dangerous (only if you are), about flying the lightest thing possible (only if you want to), or about flying the simplest rag-and-tube aeroplanes (it can be, but needn't).

Microlight flying is about flying as cheaply as possible, with the minimum restrictions on you - if budget is limited, you've no intention to become an airline pilot, and you just want to have as much fun as possible airborne, then flying a microlight is the way ahead.

I'm not going to provide anybody with free advertising, but I just looked up the website of a well know microlight school an hour's drive from London. It's helpfully very detailed about costs, although I suspect not the cheapest.

Full training, club, equipment, examination etc. : this comes out at £3,447 for a full licence course.

£1,777-£3,650k buys you a share in an aeroplane looked after by them + £20/month syndicate costs once you've got you licence, + £39/hr for your flying.

So, going for the cheaper aeroplane (a Cyclone AX3 - slow and ugly, but easy and pleasant to fly), your £6k would cover your licence course (okay, assuming you do it in minimum hours), a share in an aeroplane, another year of fixed running costs on the aeroplane, and another 13 flying hours.

http://www.microlightflyingschool.co.uk/fleet-ax3L.jpg

Add £2k, and you can either have your own aeroplane outright, or buy a share in something that'll probably outperform what you've been learning on so far...

http://www.microlightflyingschool.co...icarus-c42.jpg


Or you could, with care, go a few grand cheaper - learning and continuing to fly something older and more basic (but I hasten to add, equally safe) and spend what's left over on even more flying.

G

Jesus I have 2000hrs and cant fly straight and level........


Dont despair, it will click and you will stop worrying. Flying is about the challenge and expanding your personal envelope. Keep working it at and you will become as hooked as the rest of us!!!

Thanks to everybody for the advice, which is much appreciated.

I did consider microlights, etc., but I suspect I'm too tall, to wide, and too heavy. I'm 6'5'' tall, 3 feet wide, and weight about 19st :) In a Cessna 172, with the seat wound right down and pushed right back, I can just about get in, with about an inch clearance over my head. Quite honestly, I would be happy to fly anything. But I've got to be able to fit in it.

Just back from the Gat Bash, so rather woozy -

Best thing I was told at the initial stages (and later as well) is that the aeroplane is designed to fly straight and level - let it! It requires a certain "leap of faith", but literally letting go of the controls entirely and allowing the aeroplane to fly itself usually works out much better than pushing and pulling it all over the sky! (Subject to caveats about trim, turbulence, & rudder trim etc.)

The trick is finding out how little you have to do, not how much.

Also, as an observation, not a criticism, you seem to be mentally preparing yourself for failure, rather than success!

SD

I'm 66, started 2 months ago, so far after 16 hrs, went solo on Friday.
last week at 14 hrs I was still landing way left of centreline, drifting, nose wheel first etc, even nearly stalled on climbout, 55 kt, then it all seemed to click.
Stick with it, don't get disheartened this early. As for the budget Iv'e put 4K down but I don't think I'll make that, your 6K looks more possible.
Good luck

Trevor

Brilliant Crash! well done you!

I remember learning to waterski! I just couldn't get it ... then one day everything just clicked? still don't know what it was but it all came together!

SS

I wouldn't like to take credit unduly, I did fly gliders 20+ yrs ago & took 4 hrs power at that time inc ex 14, so I was a bit miffed at myself for "losing" it & taking so long to get it back.
Instructor said it was quite normal but then when I did it the first time he was barely on solids which I also find embarrassing. However, done now & chuffed to bits.

Trevor

My old 503 powerd Rans (stacks of head room) could haul 31 stone with full fuel. You just need to find a 12stone instructor! :)

I'm not sure about other types, but there's 4 thrusters for sale on www.afors.co.uk for less than £5K (2 of 'em are £4K ono), thats cheep flying.

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

mad bear,

Don't make assumptions about microlights; do some research. There's another 6ft 5in microlight flyer around that I keep hearing about. I believe Genghis knows him and could confirm this, and also tell you loads more about microlights...where is he when he's needed?!!!!!!

mad bear
 

like everybody tells you...at four hours you are not in a position to make any judgements about you flying...thats the function of your instructor.

you are being too hard on yourself and it will reflect in your flying.

lighten up and stop expecting too much too soon.put your faith in your instructor/s.

in my experience...the older you are the longer it takes to acquire the skill but you will get there and in the end remember that even if it takes a little longer it still adds to your experience.

enjoy what you are doing....your flying will be better for it.

good straight and level is one of the most difficult things to do properly.you will get a lot of fun out of the challange and your flying long term will be the better for it.

do'nt forget good straight and level is achieved by having your eyes outside the cockpit 8 out of every 10 seconds and 2 checking the dashboard...and most importent...trim it out .

as one contribitor said...the aircraft was built to fly..( if you were you would have feathers ). it knows how to do it..so do'nt overcontrol it...just control it.feel what the aircraft is telling you but do'nt allow it to do what it wants.

so take it slow and leave the worrying to your instructor|s...if they feel you are wasting your money i am sure they will tell you but even for them its too soon...so how could you possibly make a meaningful decision at this stage.

good luck and do'nt worry...:ok:

Training: are you having fun? If yes then continue and enjoy it, if no then stop. Try different types and clubs. Go to Cambidge Flying Group for a trial lesson. You'll get the best part of an hour for a ton in a Tiger Moth. Even if you don't qualify you will have a ball. My mate had ten types in his log book and forty ours before he soloed. He still hasn't qualified for medical reasons but he gets about ten hours a year dual.

Cost: Slingsby, find a gliding club with one. It will cost you a couple of hundred a year membership but flying will cost you about sixty per hour. This will usually include instruction.

Couple of different ways of looking at it.

Yes, money is an issue, it always will be as, let's be honest, this is not the worlds cheapest hobby. What has been said before is true, budget to fly an amount of hours every year, either training or post training. It doesn't matter if it takes you 10 years to pass a skills test, the end result is still the same. The only thing to take into account is do you like flying?? If the answer to this is yes, and trust me it gets more addictive the more you do, then carry on. No-one cares how many hours you take to get your ppl, and those that do fall into the "bold pilot" category. Law of the playground, my bike's better than yours sort of thing. Who cares, both bikes do the same job. Forget the legal mins, that is what they are, a minimum. Put this way, it is possible to turn up at a driving test centre on your 17th birthday and pass a driving test, not really plausible, but possible. Who is the better driver, the lad who did that, or the guy that had 25 hours training before test?

To make this understandable to you, lets look at something everyone knows about, driving. Lesson1, controls. Student goes nowhere. Lesson2, straight line driving and simple turns. It's all the student can do to change one gear. That would account for, in todays learning enviroment, for about 3 hours. You are at a similar stage in learning to fly. Straight and level, like all exercises will come with practice. That said pilot induced oscilation happens to all of us, those approaching test like me, or 2000 hour pilots. Don't worry about it, honestly! It is a known fact that your age does play a part in training hours. Driving instructors use the 1 hour for each year principal. a teenager will go through test in about 20 hours, a 40 year old is looking at 35 - 40 hours. Nothing against your age, it is a simple fact of nature, and different people learn different skills at different rates.

I was at about 22 hours before I went solo. I know a guy who was solo at 15 hours. He has so far spent 10 hours on dual nav training and still doesn't get it. My instructor is happy to send me off on solo nav after about 5 hours at it dual. All horses for courses.

The are a few things to remember. Don't count the money, if you can't afford it wait until you can, even if that means a couple of hours a year. You will learn at your pace, and everyone gets hung up on something. Normally landing or nav, maybe your hang up is S&L and you will whizz (notice I didn't say fly) through the rest of it! This hobby is more addictive and more expensive than any drug, once bitten you will never let go. I took my first lesson in 1990. I came back to flying in 2000. I ran out of money again in 2002. I have just come back to it on a limited budget like you. I am prepared to stop flying after I qualify, and just do what little I can.

Now a question, how often are you actually getting airboune? Curreny is the key, if you go up every week, there will be less skills to brush up before the next topic. Fly once a month and you will spend a great deal of that lesson covering and refreshing what has gone before. There comes a point when the S&L will be second nature, and something else will take your attnetion.

Above anything else, do it for fun, if it isn't fun why do it? If that means never getting a licence and flying with an instructor twice a year, then accept that as your version of aviating, I know people that do that.

Good luck

Bear, check your PM's.

As an addition, vulcanpilot's early experience sounds v. similar to my own now. Have to disagree with Whirly's comments about the 6K though. Even if you blew that amount and couldn't afford it afterwards, it'd still be the most enjoyable 6 grand you could've blown.

But given you're a fairly successful businessman in your forties, you can afford it.

Can't say I'm successful at my age but I still manage it somehow!

I wish :) Like most people my age, I have substantial outgoings -- the mortgage company takes most of my earnings and the kids (bless 'em) take the rest. All my expenditure has to be approved by the domestic financial planning committee, i.e., my wife. I'm not short of money, despite the mortgage, etc., but my family all have ideas how it should be deployed -- dull things that don't involve flying, like holidays, school trips, extensions to the house, saving for university fees, the usual stuff.

I have negotiated the expenditure of 6,000 pounds on flying over the next 12 months. Taking out the cost of equipment, examination fees, insurance, books, etc., leaves me with enough for about 40 hours of Cessna172+instructor time. I'll probably be able to get, say, 1,000 pounds per year after that.

My original plan was to spend the six grand all at once on lessons -- at least two a week -- in the hope of qualifying for a PPL before it ran out, and accept that I might then not be able to fly again for a year. But from what other people have said, that increasingly sounds like a bad plan. I've been quite surprised, from the preceeding posts, how long most people take to get to qualifiying standard. Even if I were more-than-usually competent, and I have no reason to think I am, it seems that hoping to qualify in 40 hrs is optimistic. In any event, combined with my work obligations and decreasing hours of daylight, the crappy weather at the moment is limiting me to one flight a week.

I'm coming around to the idea that spreading my expenditure over a longer period of time is more sensible. I could certainly afford one hour's flying every 2-3 weeks for the foreseeable future, but that means it would be several years at least before I got to PPL qualifying standard, if I ever did; and being the driven, goal-directed kind of person I am, that's a hard nut to swallow.

But life is about compromises, I guess.