If a pilot is within the currency rules as laid down, then they can fly with another PPL as a safety pilot, but only they can log the time.

But, If any instructor is with them, then they are PIC and the PPL must log P/UT. There can only be one commander on a flight.

If I am on board and responsible for successful flight, then I log the time. If any training occurs, then I am instructing, therefore I am PIC.
A checkout is usually because someone hasn't flown very often and invariably turns into an instructional flight either on my or more often on the PPL's urging.

I never understand why people get in such a tizzy about what to log. It's not as if it makes much difference to the recreational flyer. Your total time goes up the same whether you log P1 or P/UT. So if someone has done well, then I have no problem in not logging the time, but if it's a bit ropey, then I will say so and try and help them fix the problem. It is my job after all.

A check flight isn't the same as a solo flight, mainly because the the person handling the controls, isn't in charge of the flight in total. The FI is directing the PPL.

That is a totally different thing to just having a safety pilot on board.

Currency is the most important thing for flight safety and club rules are usually as they are because of bitter experience. Most PPL's are very sensible and understand when they are rusty, but there a few muppets out there who seem to think that flying with an FI is bashing their ego.

Use your common sense and if you do have to fly with an FI, then get the most out of it, after all you are paying for it! Get them to show you something new or re-explain something. It's far better than just having us sitting there bored.

Actually the norm for a check flight maybe that the pilot is question is not current and would certainly benefit from the wisdom of an instructor.

The cases I refer to where I would insist on being PIC is when I am made to do a checkout on a type I am totally current on for "insurance" purposes.

For example, I fly 400hrs per year own a 152 and 172XP, fly a Twin on a regular basis and have a JAA IR-SPA-ME (instrument rating) and turn up to a club and want to rent a 152 for an hour to go sight seeing and am told I must do a 1h checkout with an Instructor. Fair enough if they want to see me fly I have nothing to hide. But there is no way I will allow the Instructor to be pilot in command.

And to be fair I have not actually had any Instructor disagree with me on one of these flights yet! I dont' actually even need the hours, it is just a matter of principle!!!

Bose-x

How's this for a principle? An aeroplane has to have a pilot in command, if there is more than one pilot on board the owner or operator has to specify who is to fill that role. If you are not suitable to fill the role, either because you are not qualified, not current, not known to the owner/operator or for any other reason the owner thinks fit he is quite entitled to nominate someone else!

You say you don't need the hours, fine but, if you want to fly someone else's aeroplane they make the rules; if you don't like it get your own aeroplane and do what you like!

If you came to my training organisation with your "principles" you'd be leaving again with nothing to write in your logbook!

Happy landings

3 Point

3 Point - And I would be happy to leave your establishment with nothing in my logbook. You may be well advised to learn who the customer is......

It is little wonder that the PPL market is on the decline and flying schools can't generate new business. It is about time the industry had a shake up and the obvious arrogant attitude displayed towards the customer is taken stock off.

I own 2 aircraft, but this does not mean I am not prepared to give business to forward thinking customer facing schools.

I did not say I would not do a checkout, I said I did not expect to pay for a PUT lesson when I am current on type........ :ugh:

Bose-x,

"I did not say I would not do a checkout, I said I did not expect to pay for a PUT lesson when I am current on type........ "

Well .. you actually said

"But there is no way I will allow the Instructor to be pilot in command"

No one is asking you to pay for a PUT leesson if you don't need it but, you have the right, and indeed the legal responsibility to nominate the pilot in command of one of your own aeroplanes when it flies; the owner/operator of an aeroplane you hire has the same legal responsibilities and probably also has constraints placed on him by his insurer. It is for him, not you to say who is pilot in command! If you are not the nominated pilot in command it is illegal for you to make a logbook entry showing that you are. I don't make the rules, I just operate within them!

This is an interestinng discussion because it demonstrates the paradox in our industry and the difficulty in reconciling the customer/supplier relationship with the expert flier/less expert flier relationship. I fully accept that there are some instructors who are not very expert and some hirers who are; this further complicates the picture! I am sure that you are an expert pilot bose-x and if you did come to me to rent an aeroplane I'm sure we could come to a sensible agreement but, just look for a moment at your earlier remarks and how they come accross. What sort of reaction do you usually get when you make remarks like the one I quoted above?

Happy landings (wherever you go flying!)

3 Point

Sorry, Bose-X, but 3-point is absolutely right.

I accept that you do more hours than the average PPL. I don't know what kind of hours you do, and it's not really very relevant. You may or may not practice PFLs regularly, for example.

But let's assume that the engine fails during your checkout. For whatever reason (maybe you don't do PFLs often enough, maybe the instructor prefers a different technique to you and doesn't understand what you are doing) the instructor wants to take control. If you are PIC, would you let him? If he messes up the forced landing, it will be you who will have to declare to your insurance company that you've had an accident. If you decide not to let him take control (as you have every right to do, since you are PIC) and subsequently the aircraft is damaged, the club's insurance policy probably won't cover it since you had not met the club's requirements of being checked out. Will you pay?

Or, the alternative - the instructor is PIC. Now, whether the instructor decides to let you continue the forced landing, or whether he takes over himself, it is his record against which the accident and the outcome will be recorded, and there will be no query about insurance issues.

As a paying customer who doesn't need hours, I know which I'd prefer.....

FFF
-------------

3 point, I sugeest if you are going to quote me you quote the whole text not just the part that highlights your point........

<<If you came to my training organisation with your "principles" you'd be leaving again>>>> Leaving with with what, a bottle of Champagne, a Kiss and a cuddle?????

Be carefull what you quote to suite your own ends.... :)

What I actually said was this:

"For example, I fly 400hrs per year own a 152 and 172XP, fly a Twin on a regular basis and have a JAA IR-SPA-ME (instrument rating) and turn up to a club and want to rent a 152 for an hour to go sight seeing and am told I must do a 1h checkout with an Instructor. Fair enough if they want to see me fly I have nothing to hide. But there is no way I will allow the Instructor to be pilot in command."

If I was going to a school and flying a new type or had not flown for a few months then I would expect some sort of refresher training and be gratefull for it.

But as I also said before it seems that either I have been very lucky or chosen the operations that I fly with carefully as none so far have insisted on enforcing the PUT situtuation. The most I have had to do is a couple of circuits. I guess a good Instructor should be able to recognise if the guy flying is current and safe or just a muppet. If I was behaving like a muppet then I would expect the Instructor to assume command and either train or ban me!!!

I also did not claim to be an expert at any point in my post, just rightly claim that I am current and deemed by IR & MEP renewals to be safe to operate aircraft in an "advanced" manner.

Enjoy!

bose-x,

My car had it's MOT last month. Does that guarantee it is roadworthy today? NO. Same for having passed a skill test.

If you are to do a checkout with me, I will be PIC, you will be student. I will have the authority to tell you what to do and I will have the authority to terminate the flight at the appropriate time and I will be responsible for the safety and conduct of the flight. You will do what you are told when you are told because I am pilot in command. That is because the law provides me with the authority to do whatever is required to ensure the safety of the aircraft.

Until I have signed the dual flight in your logbook as being to my satisfaction you are not entitled to be Pilot in command of the aircraft.

If that is not to your satisfaction, then you will not fly one of our aircraft.

I am long long past thinking of hours in my logbook. Those who say things like I have lots of experience, I do lots of hours, I fly lots of aircraft and have lots of ratings, I should be P1 and then go on to say "I am going to bag the P1 hours not the pimply hour grabbing instructor"........stink of double standards....who exactly is grabbing p1 hours they are not legally entitled to?

It is a legal requirement that a dual training flight complies with;

The Club Flying Order Book; and

The insurance requirements.

Both say that you are not entitled to be P1 until checked out.

Regards,

DFC

Quoting the entire paragraph doesn't alter the fact that you claim the right to decide who is pilot in command; it is not your right to make this decision except for on your own aeroplanes! When you turn up to hire an aeroplane the owner/operator has a legal duty to nominate a pilot in command; some may chose you, some may not but, who ever is the nominated pilot in command logs the time as P1, that's the law!

A good instructor can often recognise a muppet even before they get near the aeroplane but if, as FFF suggests you have got airborne in the rented aeroplane and the instructor feels the need to take control he can not do so legally unless he is the pilot in command. If you are the pilot in command and he tries to take over without your apporoval he is comitting a serious criminal offence! Some operators and instructors may be happy putting themselves in that situation, I am not and I choose not to do it.

If I fly on a check out with a pilot I don't know, I am pilot in command or I stay on the ground.

See Ya!

DFC,

Good job I write everything y ou say on my toilet roll and your attitude as ever is a good reason why you and I will NEVER fly together......:ok:

There is no reason on this planet that you will ever TELL me what to do...........

Enough said on this subject I think, otherwise it will degrade into a war of words.

And how can it be P1(whatever) when sucessfully completed a flight test and not p1(whatever) after sucessfully completing a club checkout? I am sure the examiner is going to take control when the engine fails, just as the instructor may do on a club checkout flight. Prehaps there should be a new class of logging, called "P1 As flight instructor".....

Personally I don't give a toss who logs what, I do my 1 hr with a JAA instru ctor every 2 years to keep the CAA happy and will log it as dual - what the hell. Actually, thats a point...this year I did it with an Examiner, who was acting as FI. Maybe I can log it as P1(whatever)....;)