PUT or P1/S???
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PUT or P1/S???
Guys,
Little confused here.... Had a ppl for 18 months now. Regularly go up with instructors to ensure not developing bad habits.
Recently one of the instructors told me that once you had passed the GFT, any time with an instructor should be logged as P1/S since you are a qualified Pilot.
Went up with a mate of mine who is an airline pilot and instructor and wanted to log the time with him as instructional. He insists that it should be logged as PUT or dual...
Airfield doesn't know... who's right????
Little confused here.... Had a ppl for 18 months now. Regularly go up with instructors to ensure not developing bad habits.
Recently one of the instructors told me that once you had passed the GFT, any time with an instructor should be logged as P1/S since you are a qualified Pilot.
Went up with a mate of mine who is an airline pilot and instructor and wanted to log the time with him as instructional. He insists that it should be logged as PUT or dual...
Airfield doesn't know... who's right????
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Oh god not again......
The ONLY time you can log P1/S is following the successfull completion of a skill test with an examiner. Like my recent IR test with the CAA.....
No other time can you log P1/s.
I fflying with an Instructor and receiving Instruction then you are PUT. If you are doing a club checkout for instance on a type you are current on you can claim P1 but most Instructors (especially the hour builders) will take it as P1 for themselves and leave you to PUT.
The ONLY time you can log P1/S is following the successfull completion of a skill test with an examiner. Like my recent IR test with the CAA.....
No other time can you log P1/s.
I fflying with an Instructor and receiving Instruction then you are PUT. If you are doing a club checkout for instance on a type you are current on you can claim P1 but most Instructors (especially the hour builders) will take it as P1 for themselves and leave you to PUT.
Gizajob
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Not quite so simple I think...
I don't see why you couldn't log a check-flight etc as P1/s or PICUS, which is the same thing.
LASORS 2006, Section A, Appendix B 'Recording of Flight Time':
'He [a 'co-pilot'] may log as PIC U/S all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot in command'...
i.e. there is a commander stipulated for the flight but others may act as PIC at various times for various reasons.
One such instance is if it is a multi-pilot aircraft and the Captain is not doing the flying but the FO is. In this case the Captain is always the PIC but the FO is acting as PIC for that sector. FO can log the time as PICUS and the Capt as PIC. Nothing to do with flight tests.
But we don't fly multi-pilot aircraft, so how does the above apply?
ANO article 129(1) defines a 'co-pilot' as:
'a pilot who in performing his duties as such is subject to the direction of another pilot carried in the aircraft'
Sounds like that would apply to a licenced pilot who is with an instructor I think. Instructor is the 'Captain' and the person on the check is the co-pilot acting as pilot in command. By the rule above, PICUS time would be what is logged.
In the case of a flight test, the Examiner is PIC but the candidate is doing the flying under the Examiner's direction and acting as PIC, though he is legally the co-pilot. Assuming the test is successful, time logged by the candidate is PICUS. If the test is unsuccessful, see the next paragraph below...
Of course, official differences training or other formal training for ratings/ licences etc do not come under the above and time would be PUT. Same would be if the check ride was appalling and the instructor had to intervene maintain safe flight. That would link to another statement in LASORS Sect A App B:
'PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.'
Lastly, 'dual' is not a category for a logbook. You are PIC, PUT, SPIC, PICUS, P2 etc etc but 'dual' has no meaning for the recording of flight time.
Probably as clear as mud, but I tried!
I don't see why you couldn't log a check-flight etc as P1/s or PICUS, which is the same thing.
LASORS 2006, Section A, Appendix B 'Recording of Flight Time':
'He [a 'co-pilot'] may log as PIC U/S all the time he occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as pilot-in-command under the supervision of the pilot in command'...
i.e. there is a commander stipulated for the flight but others may act as PIC at various times for various reasons.
One such instance is if it is a multi-pilot aircraft and the Captain is not doing the flying but the FO is. In this case the Captain is always the PIC but the FO is acting as PIC for that sector. FO can log the time as PICUS and the Capt as PIC. Nothing to do with flight tests.
But we don't fly multi-pilot aircraft, so how does the above apply?
ANO article 129(1) defines a 'co-pilot' as:
'a pilot who in performing his duties as such is subject to the direction of another pilot carried in the aircraft'
Sounds like that would apply to a licenced pilot who is with an instructor I think. Instructor is the 'Captain' and the person on the check is the co-pilot acting as pilot in command. By the rule above, PICUS time would be what is logged.
In the case of a flight test, the Examiner is PIC but the candidate is doing the flying under the Examiner's direction and acting as PIC, though he is legally the co-pilot. Assuming the test is successful, time logged by the candidate is PICUS. If the test is unsuccessful, see the next paragraph below...
Of course, official differences training or other formal training for ratings/ licences etc do not come under the above and time would be PUT. Same would be if the check ride was appalling and the instructor had to intervene maintain safe flight. That would link to another statement in LASORS Sect A App B:
'PICUS (Pilot-in-command under supervision):Provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the Authority, a Co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS, when all of the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out, such that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.'
Lastly, 'dual' is not a category for a logbook. You are PIC, PUT, SPIC, PICUS, P2 etc etc but 'dual' has no meaning for the recording of flight time.
Probably as clear as mud, but I tried!
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I've also wondered about this case.
As an instructor you are supervising a pilot who is outside the 90 day requirements for the carriage of passengers. You cannot be a passenger, as the pilot isn't allowed to take them, so you must log it as crew time.
The normal interpretation is instructor logs P1, and pilot logs Pu/t.
This won't upset anyone, but, as no instruction or intervention has taken place, wouldn't it be more appropriate for the pilot to log the time as P1S?
I stick to the interpretation that Bose-x describes, but don't necessarily agree with it.
As an instructor you are supervising a pilot who is outside the 90 day requirements for the carriage of passengers. You cannot be a passenger, as the pilot isn't allowed to take them, so you must log it as crew time.
The normal interpretation is instructor logs P1, and pilot logs Pu/t.
This won't upset anyone, but, as no instruction or intervention has taken place, wouldn't it be more appropriate for the pilot to log the time as P1S?
I stick to the interpretation that Bose-x describes, but don't necessarily agree with it.
Gizajob
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If the pilot cannot carry pax, that is one matter. He can still fly alone and therefore can act as PIC. The instructor is always entitled to be the commander if giving instruction or supervising (according to LASORS).
So you can conduct a flight in which the instructor is PIC and the other person is PICUS. You do the requisite flying to be able to take pax and then the instructor gets out.
Logging the above flight as PUT makes no difference, as you say Mark1. It only means your PICUS total is less than it could be.
Bose-x quotes a common view, but I think my post above demonstrates that this is not necessarily how the rules actually work...
So you can conduct a flight in which the instructor is PIC and the other person is PICUS. You do the requisite flying to be able to take pax and then the instructor gets out.
Logging the above flight as PUT makes no difference, as you say Mark1. It only means your PICUS total is less than it could be.
Bose-x quotes a common view, but I think my post above demonstrates that this is not necessarily how the rules actually work...
Originally Posted by EGBKFLYER
But we don't fly multi-pilot aircraft, so how does the above apply?
ANO article 129(1) defines a 'co-pilot' as:
'a pilot who in performing his duties as such is subject to the direction of another pilot carried in the aircraft'
Sounds like that would apply to a licenced pilot who is with an instructor I think. Instructor is the 'Captain' and the person on the check is the co-pilot acting as pilot in command. By the rule above, PICUS time would be what is logged.
ANO article 129(1) defines a 'co-pilot' as:
'a pilot who in performing his duties as such is subject to the direction of another pilot carried in the aircraft'
Sounds like that would apply to a licenced pilot who is with an instructor I think. Instructor is the 'Captain' and the person on the check is the co-pilot acting as pilot in command. By the rule above, PICUS time would be what is logged.
2) A pilot claiming time spent as co-pilot performing
the duties and functions of pilot-in-command,
under the supervision of the pilot-in-command,
toward meeting the licence requirements as
given in Case B [PICUS], will be credited with that flight
time only if:
a) the flight was conducted in an aircraft having
a Certificate of Airworthiness that requires its
flight crews to include not less than two pilots;
..
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It is very simple really and already put here, but to summarise:
If you are a PPL holder flying with an FI, then you can only log P/UT NOT P1/S or PICUS.
Only a successful flight test is able to be counted as P1/S.
Bookworms post simply shows that you can only have a co-pilot on a multi-crew a/c. SEP's etc. are classified as single crew. So there is only one pilot needed. The only difference is when an FI is onboard and two people can log the flight, but only one can be captain ie P1.
However, as a caveat if I'm doing a checkout with someone and I don't have to touch the controls or utter any "advice", then I tell them to log it as P1 and I won't log it at all. An hour here or there makes no difference to my log book and as long as I get paid I'm happy.
If you are a PPL holder flying with an FI, then you can only log P/UT NOT P1/S or PICUS.
Only a successful flight test is able to be counted as P1/S.
Bookworms post simply shows that you can only have a co-pilot on a multi-crew a/c. SEP's etc. are classified as single crew. So there is only one pilot needed. The only difference is when an FI is onboard and two people can log the flight, but only one can be captain ie P1.
However, as a caveat if I'm doing a checkout with someone and I don't have to touch the controls or utter any "advice", then I tell them to log it as P1 and I won't log it at all. An hour here or there makes no difference to my log book and as long as I get paid I'm happy.
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It's in JAR-FCL 1.080(c). Wouldn't life be simple if everything referred to the one source?
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Don't worry about that, It isn't a proper pilot's logbook until it weighs twice as much as it should due to the tippex used!
I keep meaning to take shares out in Tippex with the amount I use!
I keep meaning to take shares out in Tippex with the amount I use!
Gizajob
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The definition of 'co-pilot' given in the ANO article 129(1) is not as complete as that given in JAR FCL 1.001 - god knows why... therefore disregard most of my previous effort!Given the latest info, what I still can't find is a reference saying:
Successful Flight tests are PICUS - why should that be on a single pilot aircraft by the logic above?
Under what circumstances PUT should be logged - everything else is detailed in JAR FCL 1.080
why can't it just be straightforward
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What matters is not what you log, but what you need logbook entries for in the future!!
Let's say you want to do the FAA CPL one day. Then, you will need a 100nm VFR cross-country flight with an instructor, and I believe another one at night. Not easy to do the latter in the UK, since night=IFR
That is the sort of thing one wants to meticulously log, and get the instructor's signature next to each such flight just to make sure nobody can argue with it.
I've just discovered that I have 8 hours last year, FAA rules, IFR across Europe, dual, which was logged PU/T when it should have been logged P1. But who cares?
Let's say you want to do the FAA CPL one day. Then, you will need a 100nm VFR cross-country flight with an instructor, and I believe another one at night. Not easy to do the latter in the UK, since night=IFR
That is the sort of thing one wants to meticulously log, and get the instructor's signature next to each such flight just to make sure nobody can argue with it.
I've just discovered that I have 8 hours last year, FAA rules, IFR across Europe, dual, which was logged PU/T when it should have been logged P1. But who cares?
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If you are qualified and current its P1.
Dont let an instructors nick your hours just because he is sat beside you. Agree before hand if the flight is instructional purposes or not.
No where in LASORS does it state that a club or insurance requirements can dictate how hours are logged in line with any 28 day requirement, etc.
LASORS states that an instructor can only log PIC for "all flight time during which he acts as an instructor in an aeroplane or supervises SPIC flying". Well you arent a student and if he isnt instructing you because you have already agreed its a club requirement not a licence requirement.....
Dont let an instructors nick your hours just because he is sat beside you. Agree before hand if the flight is instructional purposes or not.
No where in LASORS does it state that a club or insurance requirements can dictate how hours are logged in line with any 28 day requirement, etc.
LASORS states that an instructor can only log PIC for "all flight time during which he acts as an instructor in an aeroplane or supervises SPIC flying". Well you arent a student and if he isnt instructing you because you have already agreed its a club requirement not a licence requirement.....
Agree before hand if the flight is instructional purposes or not.
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That is the sort of thing one wants to meticulously log, and get the instructor's signature next to each such flight just to make sure nobody can argue with it.
I log all dual flight in the UK (and G registered aeroplanes) as DUAL (PUT) and all dual flights in the USA (and N registered aeroplanes that I am rated for which is anything under 12501 lbs unless it is turbojet) as PIC as well as DUAL.
I ensure that I meet any requirements for JAA seperately from the FAA regs, I was going to start two logbooks ages ago, but it is beyond that now, so I ensure that whenever I have contact with the CAA or have to fill out CAA forms, that I only include their requirements (i.e. FAA PIC/Dual flights get filled in as PUT).......I only bother to log cross country if >50nm, and I don't bother to log "IFR" flights, only Actual or simulated.
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If you require an FI, then you are P/UT. It doesn't matter if you are needing a check for club/syndicate rules or for licence purposes.
FI's don't "nick" hours, they are PIC and have the responsibility, so therefore should log the time. I only let PPL's log P1 time out of the goodness of my heart, not because the law says so and I have very specific criteria for allowing them to do so. Most don't reach it so very few are allowed to log P1 instead of me.
If you want to fly aircraft I'm responsible for, then you follow the rules I lay down in the flying order book. These supercede and are far harsher than the ANO, but if you sign it, then you are agreeing that you will abide by them.
If you don't sign it, then find another club......
FI's don't "nick" hours, they are PIC and have the responsibility, so therefore should log the time. I only let PPL's log P1 time out of the goodness of my heart, not because the law says so and I have very specific criteria for allowing them to do so. Most don't reach it so very few are allowed to log P1 instead of me.
If you want to fly aircraft I'm responsible for, then you follow the rules I lay down in the flying order book. These supercede and are far harsher than the ANO, but if you sign it, then you are agreeing that you will abide by them.
If you don't sign it, then find another club......
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If your club is stating that you must fly with an instructor then you are entering a whole different arena and you are not loggin hours as in App B of LASORS.
In our group you can request one of the other members to act as a safety pilot if you havent flown for a while. You are PIC. No FI required as you are not out of currency as regards your licence - its just common sense if you have not flown for a while. End of.
In our group you can request one of the other members to act as a safety pilot if you havent flown for a while. You are PIC. No FI required as you are not out of currency as regards your licence - its just common sense if you have not flown for a while. End of.
I only let PPL's log P1 time out of the goodness of my heart, not because the law says so and I have very specific criteria for allowing them to do so. Most don't reach it so very few are allowed to log P1 instead of me.