Training fixes
 

I never really thought about this before one of the instructors down at the airfield mentioned it in a newsletter. The chaps and chapesses who come up with the RT phrasiology have played a bit of a blinder on this one. Next time you're 'temporarily uncertain of your position', pop it onto Virgin 121.5 and ask the nice people in London Centre (or Scottish Centre if you're really lost :D) for a 'Training Fix' and they'll tell you where you are.

Everyone else will think you're doing a bit of training and there's no need to admit you're lost!

Why just not admit you're lost, if you are?

I do several "training fixes" in awkward places, but I am sure to tell them my position, just in case they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, which could impinge upon someone's real PAN or MAYDAY call. Remember, the training is for both parties.

Why don't you want to admit you're lost? There's no shame in it; we all get lost sometime or another. And you'd feel a bit stupid if they couldn't give you your 'training fix' as there was a real emergency going on, and THEN you had to admit that you were lost. :(

I think there are degrees of 'lostness', ranging from 'I knew where I was a couple of minutes ago' to 'I haven't got a clue'! I think it's useful to get in touch with someone in the early stages of lostness rater than carrying on and hoping it'll all work itself out. Anything that encourages people to ask earlier has to be a good thing - even if it's just for confirmation.

Just as a matter of interest, how many people here have been a bit lost, and how many of those have admitted it on air to D+D? I've never got in touch with D+D but I wouldn't say I've never been a little bit uncertain where I was? Has anyone here admitted to being lost to D+D?

Now, I'd get in touch and admit it! However in my early flying days, I think this advice would have come in very useful. It's only now that I am more experienced have I got the confidence to ask for assistance if I need it.

Why not do the really smart thing, and spend a few hours' flying money on a decent GPS.

I couldn't agree more! There's nothing that improved my enjoyment of flying more than my Garmin Pilot III. However, for that PPL student on a qualifying cross-country, a 'Training Fix' can be quite a useful trick to have in the bag.

Horse****.

Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq.

If I were your examiner or instructor I'd fail you as a result of your deceit AND let me tell you that I used to call London Centre on the telephone whilst my students were on short final after QXCountry of solo navex. They will tell you in the blink of an eye if your students aircraft has either used 121.5 OR is suspected of having been in airspace it shouldn't have.

Just don't do it.

I'd have all the respect in the world for a student who came in for debrief you said "actually I called 121.5 for being Lost then proceeded to destination". He'd pass and be commended.

If the student claimed he had no problems when I already knew he's used 121.5 or had bust some airspace then he'd be chopped, bollocked and made to refly the exercise.

Cheers

WWW

Well obviously a student on a QXC should not be using a GPS - that's cheating.

In fact the mere mention of the possibility of thinking of getting a GPS within the earshot of an instructor, prior to getting one's PPL, is a very bad thing to do because he's likely to regard you as a bit of a smart ***e and will be watching you extra carefully.

However, a QXC is usually a well worn and easy route, done on perfect days, not requiring any accurate nav to avoid a CAS bust (because that would reflect on the instructor) and one has to do it only once per life :O

If I was lost, I would do a fix with two VORs. Just tune in each one, turn the knob until the bar is centred with the FROM flag showing, read off the radial off the top of the dial, and repeat for the 2nd one. Then draw the two lines on the map and see where they cross. Takes a lot less time than calling somebody on the radio, and every PPL should know how to do this (and how to track a VOR). It's REALLY EASY. Even easier with a DME :O

When Paris was a young chap
 

..........he was really into his rallying (cars), and as he was too young to drive, he had to make do with playing with the maps whilst occupying the lefthand seat. I used to think that there was nothing worse than being in a rally car, on a rally and not knowing quite exactly where you were. I used to think to myself 'I'll wait til the next corner, or the one after that and I'm sure I'll be able to find out exactly where I've gone wrong'.

Well, there is something more worrying than being in that car, and it's being in an aircraft and not knowing where you are. Don't 'wait til the next corner' get on the radio and ask for assistance.

I've said in a previous thread and I'll say it agin here - the folk at D&D do a brilliant job (I visited West Drayton a while back and would recommend it to anyone - no matter how much experience you have) and will get you on your way as quickly as possible. Their concern is that you (and others who may be close by you) are safe - they do not pass judgement as to why you may have got yourself into the situation, your well being is prime!

PD

An ex-member of our group told me that on his QXC, he became unsure of position somewhere between Bristol and Exeter, so seeing a farmer in a field, landed. He trotted over, asked where he was (farmer more than happy to help, apparently) and took off again.

Didn't occur to him that a rut in the field may take the nose wheel off or all the other risks involved. Gives him cold sweats these days.

The impetuosity of youth, I suppose

"Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq."

WWW,

For once I can't agree with your sentiment. Although it might not be strictly kosher, it's far better for someone on to call early on 121.5 if uncertain of position. If it's NOT already a "genuine emergency", it has the potential to turn into one very soon!

A timely call might well prevent an inexperienced pilot suffering an airspace bust, or an AIRPROX.

The training fix is actually for D&D's benefit too, of course. :D

The only problem is that a refused TF may require the pilot to go back on the radio "cap in hand" and admit he IS now not "Training" after all... ;)

What say D&D?

BTW, If I get a bit lost I drop down to 50 feet and read the road signs :E

I definately have to agree with WWW on this one. If you are lost, then tell someone and get out of it. We've all had times when we were 'temporarily unsure of our position.'
Just admit it and use the service as it was designed for.

Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too? :mad:

As I understand it D&D both invite and welcome training calls.

The 999 service does not.

Therefore it's not fair to compare the two. Apples & Oranges come to mind.

I agree with Sky Torque. Best to own up and admit your problem. But if using the word training in the call, makes some people make the call, where they otherwise wouldn't, then it's better than them not making the call at all.

dp

A training call is just that, pretending that you aren't lost when you are is about as unprofessional as you can get.

If people can't admit that they are lost because of their ego's, then I'd rather thay weren't sitting in the cockpit of an a/c. Ego kills more people in flying than anything else.

No-one is going to slap your legs if you get lost and to be honest with the general standard of navigation skills in PPL-land I'm amazed D and D aren't snowed under continually.

Use the system corrrectly or fill your a/c with GPS's so you always have a backup rather than relying on hoodwinking an excellent system. Failing that, learn how to navigate properly in the first place and then keep it up.

If you are genuinely lost, then D&D can offer you all sorts of help that you may not realise you need. If you pretend that you are training, then this help won't be as forthcoming.
Again, use it correctly, or don't use it at all.

If I caught any of my students or members playing this game, they'd get a kicking of monumental proportions.

The problem on here is that some people insist on making everything so black and white.

We have WWW and SAS bollocking students for deceit and comparisons with false calls to 999, which is plainly illogical, since they are a criminal offence whereas failing to be aware of one's position as a PIC and seeking help is plainly not.

Yes, if you are lost, call D&D immediately, state the situation and ask for assistance.

If you are not lost, you won't need to.

But what about that uncertain feeling that low hour PPLs sometimes get, sure they planned the flight meticulously and are maintaining a solid VFR flight log, BUT maybe the weather is a little different to plan and that affects the view out of the window and makes it harder to triangulate the position. OR the winds aloft are stronger/weaker than forecast and the drift correction angle "feels wrong?"

Strictly speaking, the pilot is not lost, but there is some concern creeping into the edge of consciousness, starting to affect his/her ability to manage the workload.

Under those circumstances, a training fix is completely appropriate and sensible, because (a) it is providing training for D&D, (b) it is providing training for the PPL in consolidating his/her position under more challenging circumstances and (c) it may well avoid a more dangerous situation such as a CAS bust

WWW and SAS, you should reflect seriously on the merits of your postings and the impact on the low houred PPLs who read these threads and are influenced by such postings.

For the record, in 1996 with the princely total of 115 hrs, I found myself in a situation where I was starting to become concerned about position, due to the masking effect of wx and also a seriously stronger wind aloft. By taking a training fix over ground without many features, I was able to re-orient myself, safeguard against busting the Stansted zone and navigate safely back home. Whirly, had D&D declined the training fix, I would have escalated to an emergency, since the unavailability of the training fix would have made the situation more serious.

Now if you wish to argue with me about my decision, feel free to, but I called D&D afterwards, explained what happened, thanked them and was told that it was a completely appropriate use of the service.

Why not ask the agency you are already talking to to help, assuming they are appropriatly equipped-as a radar controller it is unbelievably easy to find someone who is lost, and assuming you arent a million miles away takes about 5 seconds if you have a transponder, maybe 20 secs if you dont. paperwork will not be filled in if you ask for help, no one is going to ring the CAA and tell them you had to ask for help; and as already stated above it`s not illegal to get lost-busting CAS though is illegal - so ask for help early if at all unsure.

(apologies for spelling,it is early!)

EvilJ

A good suggestion and such a pity that we do not have full LARS coverage for the UK.

Horse****.

If you don't KNOW where you are then you are LOST. Its not tricky, difficult or hard to understand.

What you emphatically are not is in need of is a Training Fix.

A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.

D&D can and do have a different repsonse to a Training Fix call and a Lost call.

The information given by them to a Training Fix call tends to be of a less detailed nature particularly if they are busy. They possibly won't add in extras such as 'beware of controlled airspace 3 miles to you 2 o' clock'. They may not ask about endurance or other things and will assume an instructor is on board.

You are also skewing the statistics of D&D calls.

D&D has to justify its expense and if a significant chunk of its workload is falsely thought to be training and not actual help work then this weakens the funding arguments for D&D.

Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.

Occupying 121.5 is a serious business there are THOUSANDS of ears on that frequency at the same time as being on the frequency controlling them.

I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule.

There is NO harm in using 121.5 if you are lost and there never has been and nobody cares least of all the CAA. Every PPL should be taught that.

Mind you though that VFR nav is supposed to be just that. Its no good only being safe IF you can use the navaids and 121.5 because I've had total electrical failure 3 times in 1500hrs of light aircraft flying. Twice through failed Alternators and one through electrical smoke and having to turn everything off.

Its mk1 Eyeball, the map and some confidence in what you are doing that will save your life in that situation.

Not cheaty weasley tricks and lies.

Cheers

WWW

Or a battery powered GPS???:8

I can appreciate where you are coming from WWW (although your language doesn't help your argument).

But I'm afraid we will have to differ.

While I agree completely that we should always admit to our problems, the simple reality is that some people won't. If using the word training makes them more likely to ask for help in time, then so be it. It's better than them not asking for help.

This is not just a GA problem. There have been examples of commercial airlines running out of fuel, yet refusing to declare a mayday. One in NY comes to mind, but I have read about others.

I'd be interested to see the reply you get from the CAA. Any chance you'd publish it here, along with the letter you are sending them?

dp

The other prblem with WWW's suggestion would mean that people couldnt practise using D&D post qualification - I seem to rememeber some material coming from D and D a while back asking for people to call them for their own training. I'm sure they are quite capable of telling people to bog off if they are busy with real emergencies.

I do agree though that if you are lost you shouldn't use a training fix; but human nature is what it is.

WWW, I certainly understand your points and respectfully disagree with them. However, I think you'd convince more people if you toned down your demeanor and language. Gentle encouragement I believe is the term. It's fine to be firm in your beliefs but also show respect for others with differing opinions.

When I first began flying there were times I had a rough idea where I was but was not absolutely certain. I don't think it's wrong for someone in that situation to ask for a training fix. It does no one any harm. And every airliner within 200 nm will not turn off 121.5. As pilots build up their XC time they'll become more comfortable in knowing where they are and this won't be an issue for them.

My instructor had no problem with me carring a handheld GPS but he did ask that I not use it unless I was absolutely lost (until I got my PPL). i.e. use it as a last resort. I'm surprised that more instructors don't show their students how to use them and even encourage them to carry one as a backup. Personally, I use mine as primary nav and use VORs as backup, writing down my position every 10-15 minutes.

What a pompous, arrogant and thoroughly incorrect statement! CAP413 states: Any pilot is entitled to ask for a Training Fix, instructor, student or otherwise. If such calls disturb WWW's quiet snooze in the driving cab of his airborne omnibus - tough!

www said

I just had a look at my Trevor thom Volume 7, 2001 edition:

Page 122 second paragraph -

Weasley, I think you are referring to a Practice-Pan. The training fix is something that could be used post PPL qualification. Although the book didn't say it, I would advise anyone attempting this to listen for a time to 121.5 just to make sure that nobody is actually involved in a genuine Pan or Mayday call.

Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.

There is an increasing trend for 121.5 being used to try and call airliners who aren't monitoring the control frequency, have gone to the incorrect frequency and don't have the common sense to revert to the previous one when all is silent, are not listening where they should be due to other finger trouble, or the captain has gone to the loo whilst the FO is talking to company (yes, the last one did really happen).

Perhaps a few fighter launches with all the appropriate costs being sent to the airlines involved might help focus the minds on this particular un-needed use of the emergency frequency ;) On average there is a loss of comms for a prolonged period in these circumstances at least once a day in the UK, and it's getting worse.

Back to the topic, if you are lost (or uncertain of position), then make that call to D&D. Don't dress things up to try and save face, just tell them the truth and they will do what they can to help you out. It's a no brainer.

WWW

If your reference applies to my post, please would you explain, preferably in temperate language, why you have such a problem with my actions, when the D&D cell did not?

Furthermore, given the number of CAS busts near Stansted and the CAA comment about the part that featureless terrain may play in this respect, why are you so opposed to airmanship that recognised the risk of transgressing, especially given the comments by some controllers on PPrune about their concerns relating to traffic skirting their zones?

Had you been crew on an airliner forced to GA due to a zone bust, would you still be so adamant in your views?

Do you have superpowers that allow you to see through sunny haze, that was unforecast and see landmarks that are invisible to normal people?

Seems like you are opposed to a win-win outcome.

And if I was LOST, the streak of yellow down the middile of my back would get me on the radio stating precisely that and asking for vectors or other assistance IMMEDIATELY.

Of course, if you remember back to 1996, GPS was not as widely available as it is now and GPS is a great secondary navaid, if used carefully.

Those that have, and those that will
 

Maxflyer, an interesting statement:

I would be careful with your last assumption. It is that sort of statement that makes people self conscious of confessing that they are lost. I've been lost, not plesant and I ended up calling a local radar service for VDF and subsequent QDM home.

As with all these unplanned learning experiences, it was not one event that contributed to me getting lost there were lots of little circumstances: distracted with instructing, instructing GH in a rather featureless area (which I was new to - 2nd day), ADF failure, turning back towards the airfield to discover vis was about 4 km in haze into sun. Of course my inattention to nav was significantly contributing. Suffice to say I learnt a lot more about flying on that trip than many countless others.

In flying you will fit into one of two categories: Those that have, and those that will! Don't assume you are invincible.

GQ

Wouldn't like to meet WWW on an off day. What a grump!

GuinnessQueen

The last thing I want to do is make anyone feel self conscious enough to not use everything at their disposal if lost or unsure of position. My meaning was more about people thinking there is always an easy way out. There is no easy way when flying and navigation is a skill that we always try to hone. GPS systems can have duff batteries. Electrical systems can fail, but an aircraft remains airbourne.

I am no expert and I have found myself unsure of position in the past. After my initial concern I went back to basics and resolved the issue. I would not hesitate to contact D & D if necessay.

If you're lost, please call us on 121.5MHz.

If you think that you might be lost, the same applies. I don't see any point in carrying on hoping that you see something that you recognize.

If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!

If you call for a trg fix, either using DF or radar, you'll be given your position relative to the nearest large town and asked whether you require any further assistance.

If you tell me that you're lost I'll tell you all the above, but will radar identify you (if I can) to make sure that everyone else stays out of your way. I can give you a radar service or organize one for you. I can start tying your position in to what you can see out of the window so that you can start re-gaining your situational awareness.

It is not a sign of weakness or anything else if you call us on 121.5. Do I like the idea of people calling practise PANs on 121.5MHz? Yes I do; however, I am mindful of the arguments against it by the GAT fraternity. There is an obvious solution to the problem which has been suggested before. But until you GA guys (who have a big voice) and the GAT guys start asking for it, there won't be a solution.

Happy flying! :ok:

A friend of mine qualified with an NPPL last year and appeared not to know how to operate VOR or ADF equipment. Is this normal for NPPLs? (I know it's not a good idea!) There's no way he'd be doing a VOR cross-cut when lost...

Tim

There are PLENTY of people learning to fly every week who will conduct Training Fixes with their instructor. I REALLY don't think there is any mileage in the argument that you are helping out D&D with their currency in making Training Fix calls when in fact you are LOST.

By all means use D&D when lost just DON'T try and disguise the fact by LYING and asking for a Training Fix.

This just goes to underline the poor quality of training received by many PPLs who seemingly think its somehow 'better' to disguise the fact that they are lost with D&D. What the heck were their instructors teaching them?! That D&D are some facist CAA narks just waiting to punish them for being lost in the first place?!?

This culture of Training Fix should not be tolerated and I encourage all PPL's to condemn it in their peers. If someone feels in some way inhibited in admitting to D&D that he is lost then he/she needs a slight re-education. NOT to be encouraged into thinking being sly about it is a good way around the problem: there is no problem!

What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it?

Come on chaps.

WWW

"I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule."


WWW - I agree with everything you say but this.

Pilots are responsible professional people (and I know their might be the odd exception). Making sure you are familiar with how to make a call to D and D, etc is as much a part of currency as PFLs.

It is a fact that their are many pilots who have never been asked to obtain a training fix and probably never will be at their renewals (I know it has never come up for me when I have done my renewals). For that reason when I do a group check with another pilot I always cover the topic.

By all means when you do renewals with pilots train them how to request a training fix correctly but PLEASE dont use the cop out you propose!

Oh and "Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?" - now come on I hope you are only referring to the legal distinctions between and IMC and IR and not the RECOMMENDED minimas - quite different things as I am sure you are aware and one on which surprisingly far too many instructors seem to be confused.

WWW

At what stage does a pilot become lost?

You seem to be incapable of understanding that (a) I agree with you about 'fessing up immediately if lost, but (b) recognize a situation which is not lost, but becoming concerned about maintaining positional awareness based on the current situation, i.e. flying into increasing haze and having difficulty seeing the features ahead that would relate to the map.

So when does the pilot become lost? 10 minutes after the last firm fix against feaures, 11, 12 13?????? After all, the pilot has a VFR log that is up to date and has worked so far.

It seems to be that you are suggesting that someone should plough ahead and only deal with the situation when lost, by which time CAS may have been bust (an offence) or some other damage done.

Frankly, I think that your attitude is remarkable for a professional pilot and shows very limited capability of differentiation between the shades of grey that are present in life.

There is a great deal of difference, IMHO, between LYING about being LOST and using a training fix to avoid becoming lost.

The two things are subtly different.

I have used the training fix approach once since 1994 and never bust CAS, despite a lot of xc around the Stansted zone.

Its a record I am proud of and I believe that your thinking is flawed. Whcih if these is offically sanctioned? More illogical and inflammatory comment.:mad:

WWW

I think you should cool down a bit.

What does the above mean? Please read the ANO. The IMCR minima are the same as the IR minima, except for 1800m min met vis for the IMCR.

I know there are recommendations to increase the mins to 500/600ft but they rank alongside recommendations to not use a GPS (it is the work of the devil), to not navigate with a rubber duck floating in a bucket, to not fly into hills (but a CFIT without the use of a GPS is permitted), not twiddle with knobs and look out of the window instead, etc.

The problem with criticising the standard of training in one area, or for a particular Rating, is that you then need to take matters to their ultimate logical conclusion and shut down PPL training in the UK, because, frankly, most of it is c**p and very poorly serves the customers who do not discover until it is too late that they can't really fly anywhere useful and even if they could they can't do it in the wreckage which they can rent off their training establishment.

I have only 500hrs but have never been uncertain of pos for a millisecond, anywhere I've been to in Europe. If aeroplanes were invented today, there wouldn't be D&D on 121.50 because nobody would need to call it. The whole system exists because of the WW1 training which pretends that dead reckoning is good airmanship and anything else is just not cricket...

E 'R' Us said:

Excellent! Does this get taken into account when you log the calls, so that you publish statistics of "claimed" really lost calls against "actual" really lost calls?

If so, what are the numbers? - I've always wondered what proportion of "Practice PAN - temporarily uncertain of position" calls actually meant "er, I'm a bit lost".

You don't have to be really, horribly, totally lost to call D & D. Simply call them and tell them you're uncertain of your position, and they'll tell you where you are. They don't bite, or put a black mark against your name, or call you a Bad Pilot. There is no shame in it. You can do it every week if you like, or if you need to.

What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it. A training fix means you want to practise talking to them etc, a PAN call means you're doing it for real. And I really, really cannot see any good reason to lie about something that happens to the best of us.

So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better than honesty in this situation. :confused:

Whirlybird

Quote from CAP413
Lying?

Looks to me like following CAP 413 and using standard phraseology, which is usually agreed to reduce misunderstandings.

As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.

When I called them, they gave me a position relative to Bishops Stortford, I confirmed my position, made sure I avoided the STN zone and off I went. Sorted, with minimum fuss and in compliance with the rules.

After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.;)

ANyway, that's my last post on this subject.

Whirlbird has it right. More to come.

WWW

So if it is likely to be obvious, why not take the guess work out and ask for what you need properly.

I don't think that banning anyone except instructors from calling is a good idea, it is a procedure like any other and needs to be practiced every so often.

If you are lost, call D&D and let them know, if you are training, then use a training fix. It's not rocket science and there is no room for interpretation.

Confirming your position and not being sure of it are two different things. :
a) I'm pretty sure that town is X, but I think I'll check and confirm it - confirming your position.
b) Things don't make sense; I'm really not sure where I am, but I knew where I was five minutes ago, so I can't be too far off course - being unsure of your position.
OK, there may be a grey area in between sometimes, but not usually.

The ASI on our C150, when working, will move at slightly faster than normal taxiing speeds - certainly way less than 40kts. So believe what you like and worry if you like, and don't let the truth get in the way. ;)