What aircraft should I buy?
The Original Whirly
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What aircraft should I buy?
My long term plan has always been to instruct on helicopters, then buy a reasonably cheap f/w aircraft so that I can fly when I want, get to fly-ins, and do a bit of touring now and then. I want it to be:
1) a two seater; I've considered a single seater (Minimax is nice) but I'm a sociable being really, and I don't like flying long distances on my own.
2) could live outside at least for short periods. Having just got back from the Highlands, I don't want something that I'd have to worry about if it got left out for a few days in bad weather.
3) is good on short strips because that's the sort of flying and airfields that I like. And I might even keep it at Chirk Airfield, which is a very rough field, which had runways...once upon a time!
4) is relatively easy to learn to fly, and not too challenging once you've learned. Yes, I know I'm an R22 pilot, but it takes me a long time to learn to fly new things, and I'd like any friends who come with me to be able to fly it too if possible.
5) can carry two small-average people, plus a teeny weeny bit of luggage, plus enough fuel that you're not stopping every hour and a half or so, and still get off the ground...at short strips of course.
6) preferably group A, not microlight. I really don't want to have to keep three sets of hours current!
7) preferably PFA, so that maintenance etc is cheaper. But don't tell me to build my own; I fly things, I don't build them.
8) is fast enough for touring...at least fairly slow touring, but cruises at 75kts or more anyway.
9) er...costs less than £12,000 or thereabouts.
I know I'm probably asking the impossible, but I thought I'd get some suggestions anyway. Yes, I have thought about joining/forming a group, but I've always wanted to own my own aircraft...at least for long enough to realise it's not practical!
1) a two seater; I've considered a single seater (Minimax is nice) but I'm a sociable being really, and I don't like flying long distances on my own.
2) could live outside at least for short periods. Having just got back from the Highlands, I don't want something that I'd have to worry about if it got left out for a few days in bad weather.
3) is good on short strips because that's the sort of flying and airfields that I like. And I might even keep it at Chirk Airfield, which is a very rough field, which had runways...once upon a time!
4) is relatively easy to learn to fly, and not too challenging once you've learned. Yes, I know I'm an R22 pilot, but it takes me a long time to learn to fly new things, and I'd like any friends who come with me to be able to fly it too if possible.
5) can carry two small-average people, plus a teeny weeny bit of luggage, plus enough fuel that you're not stopping every hour and a half or so, and still get off the ground...at short strips of course.
6) preferably group A, not microlight. I really don't want to have to keep three sets of hours current!
7) preferably PFA, so that maintenance etc is cheaper. But don't tell me to build my own; I fly things, I don't build them.
8) is fast enough for touring...at least fairly slow touring, but cruises at 75kts or more anyway.
9) er...costs less than £12,000 or thereabouts.
I know I'm probably asking the impossible, but I thought I'd get some suggestions anyway. Yes, I have thought about joining/forming a group, but I've always wanted to own my own aircraft...at least for long enough to realise it's not practical!
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Not really up on PFA stuff but rough(ish) strips and living outside mean all-metal and, probably, high wing. Cuts down your options a bit.
I think some Luscombes are all-metal.
I think some Luscombes are all-metal.
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An older 150 may do the job although that would not be on a Permit.
IAE are or were selling one for £10k + VAT and if it is still around they will probably take a bit less.
Few permit aircraft would be of the variety which can live outside. Having said that most aircraft can stay outside for a few nights with some covers on. Around 10k and otherwise fullfilling all the other criteria there are a few that would fit the bill. Jodel, Condor etc.
Recently bought a share in a Condor myself and it is a delight to fly. Cruises @ 80-85 kts for 4 IGH and good strip performance. Mine is on PT CofA but they can be had on Permit too.
If you are down this way and want to have a go give me a buzz (or PM)
FD
IAE are or were selling one for £10k + VAT and if it is still around they will probably take a bit less.
Few permit aircraft would be of the variety which can live outside. Having said that most aircraft can stay outside for a few nights with some covers on. Around 10k and otherwise fullfilling all the other criteria there are a few that would fit the bill. Jodel, Condor etc.
Recently bought a share in a Condor myself and it is a delight to fly. Cruises @ 80-85 kts for 4 IGH and good strip performance. Mine is on PT CofA but they can be had on Permit too.
If you are down this way and want to have a go give me a buzz (or PM)
FD
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Whirly,
As far as I can see it you have only a few choices, and you may have to add to the budget a little...
1. Cessna 120/140 - all metal, most are on PFA permits. Quite sought after so you're looking at 14K upwards.
2. Luscombe 8 series metal wing. Great touring aeroplane. A reputation for tricky ground handling (largly undeserved), watch out for corrosion - £12k upwards.
3. Rallye Club 100, Not PFA, but a great aeroplane. Most are no more due to corrosion, but the ones left are generally 'here to stay'. Out of fashion so your looking at £ 11k upwards but ongoing costs would be higher than a PFA plane.
Hope this is of some use.
Kingy
As far as I can see it you have only a few choices, and you may have to add to the budget a little...
1. Cessna 120/140 - all metal, most are on PFA permits. Quite sought after so you're looking at 14K upwards.
2. Luscombe 8 series metal wing. Great touring aeroplane. A reputation for tricky ground handling (largly undeserved), watch out for corrosion - £12k upwards.
3. Rallye Club 100, Not PFA, but a great aeroplane. Most are no more due to corrosion, but the ones left are generally 'here to stay'. Out of fashion so your looking at £ 11k upwards but ongoing costs would be higher than a PFA plane.
Hope this is of some use.
Kingy
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
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For the budget which you have allocated I would think that PFA is more or less a must. You are going to get much more for your money than you will with a C of A aircraft. Also you will obviously have more options when it comes to maintenance ie you can decide whether or not you are going to do the work yourself or pay someone else. I'm not sure about actual types on the PFA register but I don't think you'll have too much of a problem finding an aeroplane which you will be very happy with, for £12k.
I know you said you wanted to own an aircraft outright (and I'm sure you don't really want me to say it
)but I would still give serious consideration to joining a group (or even setting one up).I went through the same debate with myself a few years ago and whilst the idea sounded really nice the reality was (is) that I would be permanently dreading the huge maintenance costs. Even in a group of 7 of us its far from cheap. I budget on the basis of about £700 per month (includes £120 hangarage + £150 loan repayment for the original capital), even then the extras like away landing fees, renewals get "forgotten." For this I get a decent 4 seater IFR machine which cruises at 110kt. I fly between 30 & 50hrs a year.
FujiF
I know you said you wanted to own an aircraft outright (and I'm sure you don't really want me to say it
)but I would still give serious consideration to joining a group (or even setting one up).I went through the same debate with myself a few years ago and whilst the idea sounded really nice the reality was (is) that I would be permanently dreading the huge maintenance costs. Even in a group of 7 of us its far from cheap. I budget on the basis of about £700 per month (includes £120 hangarage + £150 loan repayment for the original capital), even then the extras like away landing fees, renewals get "forgotten." For this I get a decent 4 seater IFR machine which cruises at 110kt. I fly between 30 & 50hrs a year.FujiF
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Whirly. I can only say that Evo is right! 
This is a rather tidy Aeronca Chief that is currently for sale.
http://www.aeronca.co.uk/ForSale/FSbutf.htm
This example has an 85hp engine which gives even better short-field performance, and would meet every one of your criteria (flexing no 9 just a teeny bit...).
Re point 2, leaving an Aeronca outside for a few days is certainly OK, but imo none of the PFA classics should really be left outside permanently, even the metal ones like Luscombes. Quite apart from general deterioration and sogginess, there is the constant worry every time the wind gets up!
Aeroncas are probably amongst the easiest tailwheel aircraft to fly, and if you can fly an R22 should be no problem!!
Let me know if you'd like more info.
Slip
This is a rather tidy Aeronca Chief that is currently for sale.
http://www.aeronca.co.uk/ForSale/FSbutf.htm
This example has an 85hp engine which gives even better short-field performance, and would meet every one of your criteria (flexing no 9 just a teeny bit...).
Re point 2, leaving an Aeronca outside for a few days is certainly OK, but imo none of the PFA classics should really be left outside permanently, even the metal ones like Luscombes. Quite apart from general deterioration and sogginess, there is the constant worry every time the wind gets up!
Aeroncas are probably amongst the easiest tailwheel aircraft to fly, and if you can fly an R22 should be no problem!!
Let me know if you'd like more info.
Slip
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C120s have fabric wings, C140s are all tin but apart from one or two are all C of A machines.
The same goes for Luscombes - virtually all of them are fabric winged. They are also not great strip machines as they have a very narrow undercarriage which is not renowned for its robustness.
You can get around the couple of days outside with decent covers - but they are not cheap (or that light or small!).
The obvious choices would be modern alloy permit machines, Zenith 601 etc but your budget does n't come close. Really 12k doesn't leave you much room to maneourve - you're in the 'take what you can get for the money' area.
Of course if you regularly fly with someone else you could part own? And a small group usually offers good availability and a much easier introduction to the perils of owning and operating your own aircraft. With that sort of capital all sorts of machines are possible.
The same goes for Luscombes - virtually all of them are fabric winged. They are also not great strip machines as they have a very narrow undercarriage which is not renowned for its robustness.
You can get around the couple of days outside with decent covers - but they are not cheap (or that light or small!).
The obvious choices would be modern alloy permit machines, Zenith 601 etc but your budget does n't come close. Really 12k doesn't leave you much room to maneourve - you're in the 'take what you can get for the money' area.
Of course if you regularly fly with someone else you could part own? And a small group usually offers good availability and a much easier introduction to the perils of owning and operating your own aircraft. With that sort of capital all sorts of machines are possible.
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Whirly -
There's a RANS.... something or other..... that's been advertised for sale for a while at Netherthorpe for £9k. Can't remember the exact type but t'was a modern two seater, 100kts cruise, PFA (I think) tail-dragger aircraft. If it operates out of EGNF it should be able to cope with whatever grass/short field strip you were thinking of. Would this be the kind of thing you are looking for?
There's a RANS.... something or other..... that's been advertised for sale for a while at Netherthorpe for £9k. Can't remember the exact type but t'was a modern two seater, 100kts cruise, PFA (I think) tail-dragger aircraft. If it operates out of EGNF it should be able to cope with whatever grass/short field strip you were thinking of. Would this be the kind of thing you are looking for?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Kingy (and Whirly and gasax),
I seem to recall that only the later 8 series had metal wings - the earlier ones were metal covered with fabric? A while back, when I was looking at buying an aircraft, I had a very similar list. Wasn't too bothered about short field stuff, but I needed something I could keep outside, and I wanted a tail-dragger. I narrowed it down to the later Luscombe 8s, and the Cessna 120/140 as Kingy says.
Then I realised that this was far too small a selection to be able to have a realistic chance of finding a good one, and decided to buy into a group instead! (By finding a group which already had hangar space I got around the problem of finding space in London, so the need to have something that could live outdoors went away and the choices got much bigger.)
FFF
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Luscombe 8 series metal wing
Then I realised that this was far too small a selection to be able to have a realistic chance of finding a good one, and decided to buy into a group instead!
(By finding a group which already had hangar space I got around the problem of finding space in London, so the need to have something that could live outdoors went away and the choices got much bigger.)FFF
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Groups are the way ahead. Your capital outlay is smaller therefore you can go for something a bit bigger and better. Your overheads will be reduced, it will already be established with a base and may possibly have an engine fund.
And if it's a well managed group with bookings on line, I doubt you will see your flying curtailed by the other members too much.
But go for a small group - no more than six. Take it from me, any bigger is a right royal pain in the
And if it's a well managed group with bookings on line, I doubt you will see your flying curtailed by the other members too much.
But go for a small group - no more than six. Take it from me, any bigger is a right royal pain in the
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FFF,
I stand corrected It's the C140a that is all metal.
As for Luscombes - Post war '8's used an all-metal wing, but there was an option of a rag wing also. I believe that the majority of Luscombes in the UK have the all-metal wing, as at fly-ins they tend to out-number the rag wings about 2-1..
Moving away from all metal aircraft, may I recommend a Taylorcraft BC12 as a very efficient touring aircraft - Mine does 100mph on 3.5 GPH and has 6 hours endurance! £12K would buy one.
Reading Whirly's post again I see that she does not specifically want a taildragger so I'm gonna be uncool an recommend a Rallye Club again also - Great plane... One of the very few cheap planes that you can fly from your short grass strip, arrive at a regional airport and not feel (and look) like a member of the grumbleweeds in.
Lots of great pireps here...!
Kingy
I stand corrected It's the C140a that is all metal.
As for Luscombes - Post war '8's used an all-metal wing, but there was an option of a rag wing also. I believe that the majority of Luscombes in the UK have the all-metal wing, as at fly-ins they tend to out-number the rag wings about 2-1..
Moving away from all metal aircraft, may I recommend a Taylorcraft BC12 as a very efficient touring aircraft - Mine does 100mph on 3.5 GPH and has 6 hours endurance! £12K would buy one.
Reading Whirly's post again I see that she does not specifically want a taildragger so I'm gonna be uncool an recommend a Rallye Club again also - Great plane... One of the very few cheap planes that you can fly from your short grass strip, arrive at a regional airport and not feel (and look) like a member of the grumbleweeds in.
Lots of great pireps here...!
Kingy
The Original Whirly
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Thanks everyone. This is all really useful stuff - looks like a Luscombe, Aeronca, Rallye Club, or Rans something or other. Or maybe join a group...but there aren't many up here anyway. I'll keep looking, and listening to suggestions. And maybe go fly a taildragger somewhere to see what I think of them. Oh, one thing I left off the list - I'm not tall enough to swing a prop, so it'll have to be electric start, or possibly one of those cord pull thingies like lawnmowers (dunno what you call them).
Slip, thanks for the link; that's a nice looking aircraft.
Anyway, no rush. This is probably next year's project; getting established as a helicopter instructor is still this years.
Slip, thanks for the link; that's a nice looking aircraft.
Anyway, no rush. This is probably next year's project; getting established as a helicopter instructor is still this years.
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Choose tailwheel, Whirly -- it's just more fun. I don't know why. And a lot more useful.
Yopu could pick up an Auster for a little over £12K or in that region, but then you would have to deal with a thirsty, maintenance hungry Gipsy. Good aircraft for the money. Noisy, rattly ******s, though.
David
(P.S. I can't believe 'b*gger' is censored. How PC is that?!)
Yopu could pick up an Auster for a little over £12K or in that region, but then you would have to deal with a thirsty, maintenance hungry Gipsy. Good aircraft for the money. Noisy, rattly ******s, though.
David
(P.S. I can't believe 'b*gger' is censored. How PC is that?!)
QDM x 3 it doesn't have to be a Gipsy, there are Austers out there with the svelte, Avgas sipping Cirrus as Whirly knows. It wasn't that noisy was it Whirl?
Alternatively there is the Continental powered Taylorcraft Auster predecessor. Ask Kingy for a whizz about in his.
You are tall enough to hand swing both of the above, it's just a matter of technique.
Unfortunately both of the above need to live indoors due to wooden spars and fabric coverings. Still, if suitably grouped the hangerage need not be too onerous. Plus your wonderplane won't be covered in pidgeon poo when you want to aviate
Alternatively there is the Continental powered Taylorcraft Auster predecessor. Ask Kingy for a whizz about in his.
You are tall enough to hand swing both of the above, it's just a matter of technique.
Unfortunately both of the above need to live indoors due to wooden spars and fabric coverings. Still, if suitably grouped the hangerage need not be too onerous. Plus your wonderplane won't be covered in pidgeon poo when you want to aviate
The Original Whirly
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LownSlow,
I liked the Auster actually. Didn't notice the noise; I wouldn't would I - I'm an R22 pilot!!!
Are you SURE I'm tall enough - and strong enough - to hand swing ANYTHING? It's just I know a woman about my size who kept the Cub when she and her husband split up, and her only problem was that she had to get someone else to start it for her!
That's just not practical. Well, I suppose I could try. I do actually like the idea of hand swinging, and of tailwheel aircraft - so much more....real, or romantic, or something. I'm just not sure if the reality would agree with the idea.
Living indoors is not a problem; I think I might hangar whatever I get at either Welshpool or Sleap, despite the extra cost, to have access to maintenance, since I don't really believe in getting my hands dirty. That might change if it was my very own...but it might not. Anyway, the only strip close by that has any space is Chirk, and you can't fly from there at weekends, and it really is short and rough for landing anyway...maybe a bit too challenging after a long flight home.
But I'd like to be able to go somewhere like Oban, and leave it outside for a few days if necessary, and not worry. And I gather you can't even do that with some (wood?) aircraft. Is that right?
This ownership thing is complicated; I think I'll need till next year to just understand it all.
Fun finding out though.
I liked the Auster actually. Didn't notice the noise; I wouldn't would I - I'm an R22 pilot!!!
Are you SURE I'm tall enough - and strong enough - to hand swing ANYTHING? It's just I know a woman about my size who kept the Cub when she and her husband split up, and her only problem was that she had to get someone else to start it for her!
That's just not practical. Well, I suppose I could try. I do actually like the idea of hand swinging, and of tailwheel aircraft - so much more....real, or romantic, or something. I'm just not sure if the reality would agree with the idea.Living indoors is not a problem; I think I might hangar whatever I get at either Welshpool or Sleap, despite the extra cost, to have access to maintenance, since I don't really believe in getting my hands dirty. That might change if it was my very own...but it might not. Anyway, the only strip close by that has any space is Chirk, and you can't fly from there at weekends, and it really is short and rough for landing anyway...maybe a bit too challenging after a long flight home.
But I'd like to be able to go somewhere like Oban, and leave it outside for a few days if necessary, and not worry. And I gather you can't even do that with some (wood?) aircraft. Is that right?
This ownership thing is complicated; I think I'll need till next year to just understand it all.
Fun finding out though.
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But I'd like to be able to go somewhere like Oban, and leave it outside for a few days if necessary, and not worry. And I gather you can't even do that with some (wood?) aircraft. Is that right?
QDM