Proof of VAT when flying to Continent!?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Aberdeen, UK
Proof of VAT when flying to Continent!?
Hi all,
I was told that if you fly an originally imported-to-the-UK G-reg aircraft (factory or PFA type) to the continent and have no proof of payment of VAT during time of import, your airplane can be impounded!? Huh?
In my case, my Zenair (on a PFA permit) was imported to the UK over ten years ago and I am not the original owner.
Anyone heard of this?
-Jason
I was told that if you fly an originally imported-to-the-UK G-reg aircraft (factory or PFA type) to the continent and have no proof of payment of VAT during time of import, your airplane can be impounded!? Huh?
In my case, my Zenair (on a PFA permit) was imported to the UK over ten years ago and I am not the original owner.
Anyone heard of this?
-Jason
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: London
It certainly is true that the French carry out these checks. I was asked for all my aircraft papers at Carcassonne last month while flying a friend's N-reg SR20.
Fortunately I had everything they wanted with me, since I don't think I'd have been popular if I'd returned sans aircraft!
Actually I was slightly surprised it only happened once during the week I was in France, given the recent friction between that country and the US. I had been expecting the 'N' on the fuselage to attract more unwelcome attention than that.
It has never happened to me in a G-reg aircraft but I always take the full stack of paperwork just in case.
Fortunately I had everything they wanted with me, since I don't think I'd have been popular if I'd returned sans aircraft!
Actually I was slightly surprised it only happened once during the week I was in France, given the recent friction between that country and the US. I had been expecting the 'N' on the fuselage to attract more unwelcome attention than that.
It has never happened to me in a G-reg aircraft but I always take the full stack of paperwork just in case.
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From: TL487591
Under an EU directive which came into force in 2002, National Customs officials are not permitted to request VAT documentation for foreign aircraft that are registered in the EU.
This means that the only place you will be asked for VAT documentation on a G-Reg aircraft is the UK.
N reg remains open to inspection by one and all, although as Flyin Dutch says, the worst is definitely behind us on that score - for now.
2D
This means that the only place you will be asked for VAT documentation on a G-Reg aircraft is the UK.
N reg remains open to inspection by one and all, although as Flyin Dutch says, the worst is definitely behind us on that score - for now.
2D
Guest
Posts: n/a
Whilst the EU directive may well be in force, this does not stop the various country's officials doing the stop check. In the end you may well be able to pull the trump card "EU directive" this will be further down the line after many hours delay.
We operate a variety of aircraft on different registers and they are all regularly ramp checked for VAT - particularly in France and increasingly in Italy (where you are also subject to "Luxury Tax" - tax on any luxury goods, which works out very, very expensive for the sake of a bit of paper!)
For the sake of carrying the extra paperwork, I'd do it.
We operate a variety of aircraft on different registers and they are all regularly ramp checked for VAT - particularly in France and increasingly in Italy (where you are also subject to "Luxury Tax" - tax on any luxury goods, which works out very, very expensive for the sake of a bit of paper!)
For the sake of carrying the extra paperwork, I'd do it.
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From: TL487591
Daifly
You are the first person I have encountered since the EU directive came into force who appears to have had direct experience of a ramp check on a G-reg aircraft that involves a specific request for VAT documentation. Whilst Ramp Checks are common in France, they normally focus on Crew Licence(s), Certificate of Airworthiness, Certificate of Registration and any Maintenance and Insurance documentation that might be available. Many people carry VAT documentation in the same folder as these documents, but giving the ramp checker the opportunity to see VAT paperwork is obviously rather different to responding to a specific request.
Most such stories fall into the Urban Legend category, in that they always happened to "somebody I know", rather than directly to the reporter.
I am working on a project in this area and would appreciate the specifics of which aircraft, when and where if you feel comfortable letting me have the information. Drop me a PM.
2D
You are the first person I have encountered since the EU directive came into force who appears to have had direct experience of a ramp check on a G-reg aircraft that involves a specific request for VAT documentation. Whilst Ramp Checks are common in France, they normally focus on Crew Licence(s), Certificate of Airworthiness, Certificate of Registration and any Maintenance and Insurance documentation that might be available. Many people carry VAT documentation in the same folder as these documents, but giving the ramp checker the opportunity to see VAT paperwork is obviously rather different to responding to a specific request.
Most such stories fall into the Urban Legend category, in that they always happened to "somebody I know", rather than directly to the reporter.
I am working on a project in this area and would appreciate the specifics of which aircraft, when and where if you feel comfortable letting me have the information. Drop me a PM.
2D
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 32
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From: Aberdeen, UK
Thanks for the replies folks. I have NO original paperwork (I'm the 4th owner and the plane's been here for 10+ years).
Can anyone point me to an internet site where I can read 'The EU Directive' you guys have referred to?
Thanks,
-jason
Can anyone point me to an internet site where I can read 'The EU Directive' you guys have referred to?
Thanks,
-jason
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 111
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From: EGLL mostly
Jason
I've seen a copy of the directive too, but I don't recall where. I'll look around.
To be honest though, your best bet is to contact Customs and Excise and apply for a certificate of free circulation. Assuming that VAT was originally paid on the import, this should be issed to you without any formality or delay. Customs and Excise have records of VAT payments on imported aircraft so your missing paperwork should not pose a problem.
Charlie.
I've seen a copy of the directive too, but I don't recall where. I'll look around.
To be honest though, your best bet is to contact Customs and Excise and apply for a certificate of free circulation. Assuming that VAT was originally paid on the import, this should be issed to you without any formality or delay. Customs and Excise have records of VAT payments on imported aircraft so your missing paperwork should not pose a problem.
Charlie.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 42
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From: West London
Free Circulation Certificate
Jason,
If you write to
John Valbonesi,
Officer,
HM Customs & Excise
Custom House
Heathrow Airport
Hounslow
Middx
TW6 2LA
and tell him your predicament and copies of your certificate of registration etc. he will send you by return a 'Certificate of Free Circulation' for your aircraft.
Some people I know have then paid the French Embassy in London for a 'official' translation of this document to carry with their paperwork. I just carry the Customs' certificate.
Irrespective of whether or not it is really required the French Customs and Police have been known to stop pilots for many hours and even to impound aircraft. Carrying this certificate may well nip this in the bud.
What would you rather do? Sit fuming in an airport terminal or be on your way because you had slightly more paperwork than you 'officially' needed?
Hope this helps,
Lom,
Ps. By the way, remember to say a big thank you to John for doing it.
If you write to
John Valbonesi,
Officer,
HM Customs & Excise
Custom House
Heathrow Airport
Hounslow
Middx
TW6 2LA
and tell him your predicament and copies of your certificate of registration etc. he will send you by return a 'Certificate of Free Circulation' for your aircraft.
Some people I know have then paid the French Embassy in London for a 'official' translation of this document to carry with their paperwork. I just carry the Customs' certificate.
Irrespective of whether or not it is really required the French Customs and Police have been known to stop pilots for many hours and even to impound aircraft. Carrying this certificate may well nip this in the bud.
What would you rather do? Sit fuming in an airport terminal or be on your way because you had slightly more paperwork than you 'officially' needed?
Hope this helps,
Lom,
Ps. By the way, remember to say a big thank you to John for doing it.
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: TL487591
Lomcovaks
As I wrote to Daifly (above), this is an area of special interest to me. If, as you imply, you have direct knowledge of a G-reg aircraft being stopped in France or impounded for failing to have VAT documentation available, then I would be keen to know time, place and aircraft registration. You can PM me if you prefer.
I should put up prize money for this, because so far, not one genuine case has been put forward.
2D
As I wrote to Daifly (above), this is an area of special interest to me. If, as you imply, you have direct knowledge of a G-reg aircraft being stopped in France or impounded for failing to have VAT documentation available, then I would be keen to know time, place and aircraft registration. You can PM me if you prefer.
I should put up prize money for this, because so far, not one genuine case has been put forward.
2D
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Lomcovaks
Can you really get a certificate of free circulation for an imported aircraft (which is probably the great majority of planes in the UK) for which you have no documents as to whether VAT was paid on the original import??
I read a while ago that the Customs offered an amnesty but that covered only planes over about 20 years old.
Can you really get a certificate of free circulation for an imported aircraft (which is probably the great majority of planes in the UK) for which you have no documents as to whether VAT was paid on the original import??
I read a while ago that the Customs offered an amnesty but that covered only planes over about 20 years old.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 42
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From: West London
Cert. of Free Circulation
IO540
My aircraft was imported in 1974 and I have no evidence whatsoever of whether vat was paid at the time.
As I indicated above, if you write to John at HM Customs he will send you a certificate of free circulation.
And 2D's, the only direct evidence that I have of French customs being arsy is with an 'N' reg aircraft but I certainly don't preclude them being a potential hindrance to me if they so choose - irrespective of what various European directives say. Therefore, I think carrying one sheet of A4 paper from HM Customs is a small price to pay to avoid a POTENTIAL significant delay.
Chacun a sont gout, if you don't want to carry one then don't bother.
Lom
My aircraft was imported in 1974 and I have no evidence whatsoever of whether vat was paid at the time.
As I indicated above, if you write to John at HM Customs he will send you a certificate of free circulation.
And 2D's, the only direct evidence that I have of French customs being arsy is with an 'N' reg aircraft but I certainly don't preclude them being a potential hindrance to me if they so choose - irrespective of what various European directives say. Therefore, I think carrying one sheet of A4 paper from HM Customs is a small price to pay to avoid a POTENTIAL significant delay.
Chacun a sont gout, if you don't want to carry one then don't bother.
Lom
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
Lomcovaks
1974 is before the Customs & Excise amnesty.
This has never actually happened to me personally but I have heard that somebody who buys a "VAT paid" (which means that at some time it has been owned by a NON VAT-registered person or corporate body) plane here in the UK, and doesn't get evidence that VAT has been paid on it, and cannot obtain that evidence afterwards, he's got big potential trouble...
This requirement for VAT docs tends to feature prominently on checklists for buying used planes.
Over the years, many planes have been imported simply by having been flown over to the UK, which anybody can do anytime without any checks. When it was later moved to G-reg, the CAA would not check with C&E if VAT has been paid. The C&E amnesty took care of the oldest ones only.
1974 is before the Customs & Excise amnesty.
This has never actually happened to me personally but I have heard that somebody who buys a "VAT paid" (which means that at some time it has been owned by a NON VAT-registered person or corporate body) plane here in the UK, and doesn't get evidence that VAT has been paid on it, and cannot obtain that evidence afterwards, he's got big potential trouble...
This requirement for VAT docs tends to feature prominently on checklists for buying used planes.
Over the years, many planes have been imported simply by having been flown over to the UK, which anybody can do anytime without any checks. When it was later moved to G-reg, the CAA would not check with C&E if VAT has been paid. The C&E amnesty took care of the oldest ones only.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
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From: Europe
Not originating from over herel I can not be certain but seem to remember that VAT on these shores was introduced around 1976.
So any aircraft which has been on the register from before this time should have no problem getting a certificate of free circulation by virtue of the fact that VAT did not exist when it was brought into the country.
FD
So any aircraft which has been on the register from before this time should have no problem getting a certificate of free circulation by virtue of the fact that VAT did not exist when it was brought into the country.
FD
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch'; 26th July 2003 at 05:03.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
I got one of those Certificates of Free Circulation, from a different office of HMC & E. I had to submit proof that the aircraft was G-reg on or before some date (I forget what the date was).
The Certificate lives in the documents folder with all the other stuff, and has been produced to French "Customs/Ramp Checkers". However, they very quickly decided we weren't a problem, and whether or not they even looked at the Free Circulation I don't know.
As you say - technically not needed, but since it's free and easy to get, why not!
The Certificate lives in the documents folder with all the other stuff, and has been produced to French "Customs/Ramp Checkers". However, they very quickly decided we weren't a problem, and whether or not they even looked at the Free Circulation I don't know.
As you say - technically not needed, but since it's free and easy to get, why not!
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 510
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From: England
FD, (Hi again!) VAT was introduced into the UK in April 1973.
I had a spot check by French Customs at Dieppe (in a G-reg a/c) a few years ago. They surrounded the aircraft on landing, but were very friendly, and spoke good english. They didn't want to see any aircraft documents, but wanted to look at our passports and licences, and examined all our flight bags very thoroughly. They asked how long we were staying in France, and when we said "just for lunch", these appeared to be magic words, and the examination stopped immediately and they left. I never did understand what was going on.
I had a spot check by French Customs at Dieppe (in a G-reg a/c) a few years ago. They surrounded the aircraft on landing, but were very friendly, and spoke good english. They didn't want to see any aircraft documents, but wanted to look at our passports and licences, and examined all our flight bags very thoroughly. They asked how long we were staying in France, and when we said "just for lunch", these appeared to be magic words, and the examination stopped immediately and they left. I never did understand what was going on.
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From: TL487591
Bluebeard777
You can apply for and receive a certificate of free circulation for your Homebuilt if you desire, although because it is/will be on the G reg, this will be of acadamic interest only.
Lomcovaks
I carry a Certificate of Free Circulation for my N reg, and I have carried such a document for previous G regs of mine. But... there has been no case that anybody can point to, where a G reg has ever been detained by French customs in relation to VAT paperwork, supported by your own experience. This is certainly true after the directive was issued.
I am not attempting to deter people from obtaining and carrying pieces of paper with them if they so desire. I am trying to stop a myth from spreading about French customs, G-reg aircraft and VAT.
2D
You can apply for and receive a certificate of free circulation for your Homebuilt if you desire, although because it is/will be on the G reg, this will be of acadamic interest only.
Lomcovaks
I carry a Certificate of Free Circulation for my N reg, and I have carried such a document for previous G regs of mine. But... there has been no case that anybody can point to, where a G reg has ever been detained by French customs in relation to VAT paperwork, supported by your own experience. This is certainly true after the directive was issued.
I am not attempting to deter people from obtaining and carrying pieces of paper with them if they so desire. I am trying to stop a myth from spreading about French customs, G-reg aircraft and VAT.
2D
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 29th July 2003 at 14:50.
