IMC / Instrument rating
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IMC / Instrument rating
Hi,
Quick question please….
Can someone please explain the difference to me between an IMC rating, and an Instrument rating. I thought they were the same thing, but having looked through the adverts in one of the magazines, I see that they are different. Can someone please shed a bit of light on the subject for me.
Many thanks
Grob Driver
Quick question please….
Can someone please explain the difference to me between an IMC rating, and an Instrument rating. I thought they were the same thing, but having looked through the adverts in one of the magazines, I see that they are different. Can someone please shed a bit of light on the subject for me.
Many thanks
Grob Driver
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IMC Rating
Quick easy course after which you can fly in cloud an shoot approaches in the UK only, and outside Class A airspace. The vis must be 1800m or better for take-off and landing, and you are advised to apply higher approach minima than would apply for an IR pilot
IR
Fly IFR anytime anyplace subject to your own prudence, currency and the limitations of the aircraft
Charlie
Quick easy course after which you can fly in cloud an shoot approaches in the UK only, and outside Class A airspace. The vis must be 1800m or better for take-off and landing, and you are advised to apply higher approach minima than would apply for an IR pilot
IR
Fly IFR anytime anyplace subject to your own prudence, currency and the limitations of the aircraft
Charlie
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Instrument Rating: an ICAO rating, valid anywhere in the world. Allows you to fly in cloud or poor vis, out of sight of the surface, in all types of airspace. The JAR implementation of this rating is particularly difficult to get - in particular, the ground exams will be very difficult if you are working full time. Alternatives to the JAR IR are an FAA IR (which is only valid on N-registered aircraft), or an IMC Rating (with restrictions as described below).
IMC Rating: This is a UK-only rating. It is not recognised, and therefore can't be used, anywhere in the world except the UK. It allows you to fly in cloud or poor vis, out of sight of the surface, in class D, E, F and G airspace in the UK. It allows you to fly instrument approaches, but the recommended minima for these approaches are far higher than for an Instrument Rated pilot (500' absolutely minimum for a precision approach, 600' for non-precision, but an individual approach may have higher limits).
Hope that clears up the confusion!
FFF
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IMC Rating: This is a UK-only rating. It is not recognised, and therefore can't be used, anywhere in the world except the UK. It allows you to fly in cloud or poor vis, out of sight of the surface, in class D, E, F and G airspace in the UK. It allows you to fly instrument approaches, but the recommended minima for these approaches are far higher than for an Instrument Rated pilot (500' absolutely minimum for a precision approach, 600' for non-precision, but an individual approach may have higher limits).
Hope that clears up the confusion!
FFF
---------------
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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I think I am right in saying that the IMC requires renewal every two years and the IR every year?
Also the IMC can be renewed by most club CFIs, whereas the IR requires a CAA authorised Instrument Rating Examiner, who are more difficult to find and book.
And, of course, the initial IMC can also be done by a QFI, whereas the IR requires a visit to the CAA Flying Unit, who have a (rather undeserved) reputation for being dragons.
W
Also the IMC can be renewed by most club CFIs, whereas the IR requires a CAA authorised Instrument Rating Examiner, who are more difficult to find and book.
And, of course, the initial IMC can also be done by a QFI, whereas the IR requires a visit to the CAA Flying Unit, who have a (rather undeserved) reputation for being dragons.
W
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All true Mr Collins, although if you are suggesting that a QFI can conduct the examination for an IMC rating, this is not correct. This takes the form of an examiners' endorsement. Still not the same as a visit to CAAFU though 
Charlie.
Charlie.
Last edited by CSX001; 21st Jul 2003 at 22:15.
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The IMC rating initial test and renewal tests are examined by PPL examiners (FE[PPL]). They are usually freelancers or staff instructors at your local flying school.
Initial Instrument Rating tests are examined by the dreaded CAAFU staff examiners. Renewals however are done by Instrument Rating Renewal Examiners (IRRE) who are usually freelancers or staff instructors at commercial schools.
QFIs don't technically exist under JAR - they're plain old FIs. The JAR equivalent to the old AFI is FI(R), the 'R' meaning 'Restricted'.
Initial Instrument Rating tests are examined by the dreaded CAAFU staff examiners. Renewals however are done by Instrument Rating Renewal Examiners (IRRE) who are usually freelancers or staff instructors at commercial schools.
QFIs don't technically exist under JAR - they're plain old FIs. The JAR equivalent to the old AFI is FI(R), the 'R' meaning 'Restricted'.
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for what it's worth, my opinion would be definitely to get an IMC (the JAR IR is out of most people's price/time range unless you're going for the full ATPL).
it really does open up the flying available to you in the UK, and makes you a lot more confident (subject of course to being current and never taking an instrument flight lightly).
it can either be a "get out of trouble" rating, or if you work at it and stay current, is almost as useful as an IR in the UK . True up north at least where there's not much class A below say FL65. If you're flying a prop single/twin it's not like you're going to be flying into Heathrow regularly...
it really does open up the flying available to you in the UK, and makes you a lot more confident (subject of course to being current and never taking an instrument flight lightly).
it can either be a "get out of trouble" rating, or if you work at it and stay current, is almost as useful as an IR in the UK . True up north at least where there's not much class A below say FL65. If you're flying a prop single/twin it's not like you're going to be flying into Heathrow regularly...
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Flying under IFR is not (necessarily) about the weather conditions but the rules under which you are flying. There's a lot more involved but you'll need a more knowledgeable man than me to tell you exactly what.
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WCollins is correct - the IMC rating can be renewed by most club CFIs (they changed their name recently, but we know what we mean) - most CFIs are also examiners. The IR is altogether a different fish, with a renewal check flight every year. Prohibitive for most of us.
IMC - relatively easy to get; needs regular practice to keep it current. Provides a good compromise for UK-based PPLs who want to fly IFR in IMC, but who don't want to (or can't) do the full IR.
Trouble is, despite occasional bar talk to the contrary, the IMC rating is not recognised outside the UK.
If the IMC works for you, then after 50 hours or so of "use", you can do an FAA IR for relatively little expense. If you can get your hands on an N-reg aircraft, then you can fly IFR in IMC all over.
IMC - relatively easy to get; needs regular practice to keep it current. Provides a good compromise for UK-based PPLs who want to fly IFR in IMC, but who don't want to (or can't) do the full IR.
Trouble is, despite occasional bar talk to the contrary, the IMC rating is not recognised outside the UK.
If the IMC works for you, then after 50 hours or so of "use", you can do an FAA IR for relatively little expense. If you can get your hands on an N-reg aircraft, then you can fly IFR in IMC all over.
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foghorn
Just to take the corrections a stage further, CAAFU has not existed for over a decade now.
An "IRE" as defined in JAR-FCL is qualified to conduct IR issue tests i.e. a CAA FE.
Renewals are conducted by either a CRE/IR (SPA) or a TRE (MPA).
The differences between the IR and IMC rating are given in ANO Schedule 8.
The holder of an IR may fly in controlled airspace in circumstances which require compliance with IFR. Additional privileges include a lower SVFR minima and no restriction on fly out of sight of the surface.
The privilege of the IMC rating, which is only valid in the State of Issue, extends the privileges of the holder of a pilot licence to fly in Class D and E controlled airspace in circumstances that require compliance with IFR. It also reduces the SVFR visibility minima to 3 Km, and permits flight out of sight of the surface. Compliance with IFR in F and G airspace is not mentioned in the IMC rating as these privileges are not excluded from the basic UK licence.
JAR-FCL 1.175 states that the holder of a JAA licence may include National ratings e.g. IMC for use in the State of Licence Issue. Schedule 8 states that the IMC rating extends the privileges of a JAA licence to include flight in Class D and E airspace in compliance with IFR, but makes no mention of Class F or G airspace!
Instrument Flight Rules have nothing to do with the weather!
Having an IR is only part of the equation, the aircraft must also be suitably "qualified" to exercise the privileges of the IR.
Just to take the corrections a stage further, CAAFU has not existed for over a decade now.
An "IRE" as defined in JAR-FCL is qualified to conduct IR issue tests i.e. a CAA FE.
Renewals are conducted by either a CRE/IR (SPA) or a TRE (MPA).
The differences between the IR and IMC rating are given in ANO Schedule 8.
The holder of an IR may fly in controlled airspace in circumstances which require compliance with IFR. Additional privileges include a lower SVFR minima and no restriction on fly out of sight of the surface.
The privilege of the IMC rating, which is only valid in the State of Issue, extends the privileges of the holder of a pilot licence to fly in Class D and E controlled airspace in circumstances that require compliance with IFR. It also reduces the SVFR visibility minima to 3 Km, and permits flight out of sight of the surface. Compliance with IFR in F and G airspace is not mentioned in the IMC rating as these privileges are not excluded from the basic UK licence.
JAR-FCL 1.175 states that the holder of a JAA licence may include National ratings e.g. IMC for use in the State of Licence Issue. Schedule 8 states that the IMC rating extends the privileges of a JAA licence to include flight in Class D and E airspace in compliance with IFR, but makes no mention of Class F or G airspace!
Instrument Flight Rules have nothing to do with the weather!
Having an IR is only part of the equation, the aircraft must also be suitably "qualified" to exercise the privileges of the IR.
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strateandlevel,
Call me confused, but what rules apply to approaching an airfield in class F/G airspace if you are in clouds and only hold an IMC? If IFR has nothing to do with the weather, where are regulations requiring you to fly the MAP or divert to an alternate found?
Call me confused, but what rules apply to approaching an airfield in class F/G airspace if you are in clouds and only hold an IMC? If IFR has nothing to do with the weather, where are regulations requiring you to fly the MAP or divert to an alternate found?
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If you are in clouds then you are in IMC which means you must be "IFR".
One instructor told me the other day that you can be "VFR" above the clouds too if you have the IMCR or IR. I can't see the point of this since going "IFR" usually gets you better ATC service.
One instructor told me the other day that you can be "VFR" above the clouds too if you have the IMCR or IR. I can't see the point of this since going "IFR" usually gets you better ATC service.
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I think people say IFR has nothing to do with the weather just to try to sound cool and confuse the unwary. IFR isn't defined by the weather. It's also true that you can elect to fly under IFR regardless of the weather. But neither of these facts means that IFR has nothing to do with weather. If the weather is (or rather causes you to be in) IMC then you must fly under IFR. In this case then, IFR has a lot to do with the weather.
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Just to clarify, the IMC is usable some places abroad, those British Dependant Territories listed in the ANO 2000 [Overseas Territories]....just to be pedantic
Anyone can fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace, but the 'standard' PPL has a restriction of 'in sight of the surface' and 'XYZ m from cloud' [can't remember what though]. The IMC rating removes these restrictions outside controlled airspace then has a little bit which states you can also use it in Class D airspace and below. It also reduces SVFR minima when transiting into Class A zones VFR [Channel Islands for example]. So with an IMC rating you can fly through the clouds, above the clouds and shoot an instrument approach into a Class D airport if you wish. You cannot fly in airways or in Class A airspace while flying in IMC.
The JAA IR in a G reg aircraft further removes the restictions on Class A airspace and because its an ICAO rating, it can be used abroad. You can also therefore enter airways.
Having a foreign IR, for example FAA IR in a G reg aircraft allows the holder to fly IFR in IMC outside all controlled airspace, and becasue many other european governments accept the british validation of a foreign IR this means you can fly outside CAS in IMC while abroard in a G reg aircraft. Not as useful as a JAR IR in a G reg, but more useful than an IMC rating abroard. You will also be issued an IMC rating by the CAA for free if you hold a foreign IR. Of course in a N reg aircraft with an FAA IR you are perfectly entitled to fly 'proper' IFR in any airspace in the UK / Europe / Aroard.
The confusing thing is filing an IFR flight plan whilst the holder of an IMC rating. For example the controllers don't know what your qualifications are, the other day I flew into Edinburgh and had to shoot the approach down to minimums to get in. No problem there as the CAA IMC minima is 'recommended'. However leaving Edinburgh I was cleared with the Grice 4 departure [or something] then Scottish control cleared me across Papa 600, which is class A airspace. [Not a problem in this case as I had a JAA IR'd pilot onboard, but had I been alone then theoretically I would have been illegal even though I hold an FAA IR], however had the tail number of the aircraft started with an N I would have been legal ??? Confusing or what !
It MAY be that in the future the CAA will state that a foreign IR holder can exercise the privilages of the IMC rating whilst in a G reg aircraft WITHOUT the need to have an IMC rating attached. If this is the case then the European IMC rating has just been born, as all European authorities I have contacted have replied that they will accept whatever the CAA accepts regarding foreign IR validation in a G reg aircraft.
Cheers
EA
Anyone can fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace, but the 'standard' PPL has a restriction of 'in sight of the surface' and 'XYZ m from cloud' [can't remember what though]. The IMC rating removes these restrictions outside controlled airspace then has a little bit which states you can also use it in Class D airspace and below. It also reduces SVFR minima when transiting into Class A zones VFR [Channel Islands for example]. So with an IMC rating you can fly through the clouds, above the clouds and shoot an instrument approach into a Class D airport if you wish. You cannot fly in airways or in Class A airspace while flying in IMC.
The JAA IR in a G reg aircraft further removes the restictions on Class A airspace and because its an ICAO rating, it can be used abroad. You can also therefore enter airways.
Having a foreign IR, for example FAA IR in a G reg aircraft allows the holder to fly IFR in IMC outside all controlled airspace, and becasue many other european governments accept the british validation of a foreign IR this means you can fly outside CAS in IMC while abroard in a G reg aircraft. Not as useful as a JAR IR in a G reg, but more useful than an IMC rating abroard. You will also be issued an IMC rating by the CAA for free if you hold a foreign IR. Of course in a N reg aircraft with an FAA IR you are perfectly entitled to fly 'proper' IFR in any airspace in the UK / Europe / Aroard.
The confusing thing is filing an IFR flight plan whilst the holder of an IMC rating. For example the controllers don't know what your qualifications are, the other day I flew into Edinburgh and had to shoot the approach down to minimums to get in. No problem there as the CAA IMC minima is 'recommended'. However leaving Edinburgh I was cleared with the Grice 4 departure [or something] then Scottish control cleared me across Papa 600, which is class A airspace. [Not a problem in this case as I had a JAA IR'd pilot onboard, but had I been alone then theoretically I would have been illegal even though I hold an FAA IR], however had the tail number of the aircraft started with an N I would have been legal ??? Confusing or what !
It MAY be that in the future the CAA will state that a foreign IR holder can exercise the privilages of the IMC rating whilst in a G reg aircraft WITHOUT the need to have an IMC rating attached. If this is the case then the European IMC rating has just been born, as all European authorities I have contacted have replied that they will accept whatever the CAA accepts regarding foreign IR validation in a G reg aircraft.
Cheers
EA
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So an IMC lets you fly in the clouds in Class E/F/G without a clearance.
What if your destination is a field "in" class E airspace. Does an IMC let you fly in the clouds until (say) 300ft above the field. You then break out and land visually. Is that legal?
What if your destination is a field "in" class E airspace. Does an IMC let you fly in the clouds until (say) 300ft above the field. You then break out and land visually. Is that legal?
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Does the fact then that the IMC rating removes the "in sight of surface" restriction of the UK PPL mean that the holder is legal when VFR on top in the rest of Europe?
EA, that bit about the FAA IR in a G reg in Europe was interesting. I'd never realised there was a "half way house" between the IMC and JAA IR in Europe.
FujiF
EA, that bit about the FAA IR in a G reg in Europe was interesting. I'd never realised there was a "half way house" between the IMC and JAA IR in Europe.
FujiF
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What if your destination is a field "in" class E airspace. Does an IMC let you fly in the clouds until (say) 300ft above the
field. You then break out and land visually. Is that legal?
field. You then break out and land visually. Is that legal?
MC
Why do it if it's not fun?
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So an IMC lets you fly in the clouds in Class E/F/G without a clearance
Agree with MasterCaution re. the rest of your question though.
FFF
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PhilD,
This is where the IR / IMC etc becomes like the film Brazil [a bunch of beaucratic nonsense].
Sure he could log P1 for the3-4 or so minutes we were crossing the airway, but in reality I was flying, paying for the plane, manipulating the controls and as I didn't notice the laws of physics change I felt confident the flight could be conducted with utmost safety without having to transfer control.....
Actually you DO NOT need to fly in accordance with IFR levels / rules in cloud, in Class G, so you can let down through the cloud. One of the stange uniquenesses of the UK and IMC rating is that you can go bumbling through cloud willy nilly, no radar, any altitude you want, no clearance in Class G, and even make your own GPS / instrument approaches up [where no other published instrument approaches exist.....]....Its kind of free in a very dangerous sort of way
Cyer
EA
This is where the IR / IMC etc becomes like the film Brazil [a bunch of beaucratic nonsense].
Sure he could log P1 for the3-4 or so minutes we were crossing the airway, but in reality I was flying, paying for the plane, manipulating the controls and as I didn't notice the laws of physics change I felt confident the flight could be conducted with utmost safety without having to transfer control.....
Actually you DO NOT need to fly in accordance with IFR levels / rules in cloud, in Class G, so you can let down through the cloud. One of the stange uniquenesses of the UK and IMC rating is that you can go bumbling through cloud willy nilly, no radar, any altitude you want, no clearance in Class G, and even make your own GPS / instrument approaches up [where no other published instrument approaches exist.....]....Its kind of free in a very dangerous sort of way
Cyer
EA