IMC / Instrument rating
So many errors and inaccuracies on this thread that it's difficult to know where to start....
IMC Ratings: Valid only in UK airspace. The old UK CPL and UK ATPL had IMC privileges equivalent to the IMC rating which were valid as long as the licence was. The JAR-FCL CPL and ATPL have no such privileges.
IR: Entirely separate to a JAR-FCL CPL, UK BCPL or UK CPL. There is no requirement to hold a ME Class Rating or ME IR on any CPL; however, the theory exams appropriate to the IR will only be valid for 36 months after passing the last exam. In other words, if you pass the CPL exams and obtain your CPL, you then have up to 3 years to add an IR. To keep the cost of licence and rating issue down, many people complete requirements for both CPL and ME Class Rating at the same time and then take their IR on the same ME aeroplane.
ATPL: The JAR-FCL CPL/IR is not 'automatically upgraded' upon achieving any specific total flight time. Most people take the ATPL exams rather than the CPL exams in order to suffer the misery only once, achieving a 'CPL with ATPL knowledge' which is commonly - and wrongly - referred to as a 'Frozen ATPL'. This ATPL theory credit is valid for 7 years from the date of the most recent IR revalidation so long as the first IR is passed within 3 years of passing the JAR-FCL theory exams. There are a number of other requirments for a JAR-FCL ATPL including a ME IR, completion of an approved Multi Crew Co-operation course, 500 hours multi-pilot (not multi-engine!) time and a minimum of 1500 hours.
Finally, if you hold a UK rather than JAR-FCL professional licence, remember that there is no necessity to convert to a JAR-FCL equivalent! Which means that even Restricted BCPL holders can continue to have their licences re-issued upon expiry.
IMC Ratings: Valid only in UK airspace. The old UK CPL and UK ATPL had IMC privileges equivalent to the IMC rating which were valid as long as the licence was. The JAR-FCL CPL and ATPL have no such privileges.
IR: Entirely separate to a JAR-FCL CPL, UK BCPL or UK CPL. There is no requirement to hold a ME Class Rating or ME IR on any CPL; however, the theory exams appropriate to the IR will only be valid for 36 months after passing the last exam. In other words, if you pass the CPL exams and obtain your CPL, you then have up to 3 years to add an IR. To keep the cost of licence and rating issue down, many people complete requirements for both CPL and ME Class Rating at the same time and then take their IR on the same ME aeroplane.
ATPL: The JAR-FCL CPL/IR is not 'automatically upgraded' upon achieving any specific total flight time. Most people take the ATPL exams rather than the CPL exams in order to suffer the misery only once, achieving a 'CPL with ATPL knowledge' which is commonly - and wrongly - referred to as a 'Frozen ATPL'. This ATPL theory credit is valid for 7 years from the date of the most recent IR revalidation so long as the first IR is passed within 3 years of passing the JAR-FCL theory exams. There are a number of other requirments for a JAR-FCL ATPL including a ME IR, completion of an approved Multi Crew Co-operation course, 500 hours multi-pilot (not multi-engine!) time and a minimum of 1500 hours.
Finally, if you hold a UK rather than JAR-FCL professional licence, remember that there is no necessity to convert to a JAR-FCL equivalent! Which means that even Restricted BCPL holders can continue to have their licences re-issued upon expiry.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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Finally, if you hold a UK rather than JAR-FCL professional licence, remember that there is no necessity to convert to a JAR-FCL equivalent! Which means that even Restricted BCPL holders can continue to have their licences re-issued upon expiry.
W
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I don't know if this should really be on another thread but as we are discussing ratings could anyone suggest the best "route" to ATPL from PPL + IMC (& a few hundred hrs P1)?
From the limited research I have done so far it sounds like:
(1) Get Class 1 medical
(2) Begin ATPL ground school modules
In parallel with (2) do the flight training for CPL (twin, to save having to do separate twin training). Then do the IR. Ensure IR and CPL flight tests are passed within 36 months of ATPL exams being passed.
Comments welcomed...
Fuji
From the limited research I have done so far it sounds like:
(1) Get Class 1 medical
(2) Begin ATPL ground school modules
In parallel with (2) do the flight training for CPL (twin, to save having to do separate twin training). Then do the IR. Ensure IR and CPL flight tests are passed within 36 months of ATPL exams being passed.
Comments welcomed...
Fuji
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Sounds about right, although I don't really understand the 'in parallel with...' bit - don't you need the CPL (or ATPL) exams complete before the CPL skills test?
An possible alternative would be to get the Class 1, start the ATPL writtens and then at a suitable point (after module one?) go do an FAA Multi/IR. Then go back, get the ATPL writtens done, do the CPL flying and then finally fly the 15 hours needed to convert the FAA IR to a JAR IR. I'd bet that having an IR would make the CPL test easier, and it's prbably a cheaper route to an JAR IR (the FAA will credit you with some of the IMC training hours, so it's around 25 hours in the states plus 15 here, rather than the full 55 here - IIRC, of course
).
An possible alternative would be to get the Class 1, start the ATPL writtens and then at a suitable point (after module one?) go do an FAA Multi/IR. Then go back, get the ATPL writtens done, do the CPL flying and then finally fly the 15 hours needed to convert the FAA IR to a JAR IR. I'd bet that having an IR would make the CPL test easier, and it's prbably a cheaper route to an JAR IR (the FAA will credit you with some of the IMC training hours, so it's around 25 hours in the states plus 15 here, rather than the full 55 here - IIRC, of course
).
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Chilli Monster,
Unless you're using it towards the qualifications for the grant of a rating (14 CFR part 61.1(b)(3))
Indeed, 61.1 (b)(3)(ii)(b), but that does not define cross country time.
61.1 (b)(3)(i)(C) defines cross country time as ..... time acquired during a flight..... that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure.
The definition itself has nowt to do with distance (or IMC). I wonder if you departed from runway 22L, flew the pattern, and landed on 22R you could call that landing at a different point from departure point and log it as such? I guess you can log what you want, and people can laugh at you when they like, Trivia city!
BEagle, there are inacuracies because the regulations appear to be unclear and permit ridiculous flying behaviour. That's not safe.
Unless you're using it towards the qualifications for the grant of a rating (14 CFR part 61.1(b)(3))
Indeed, 61.1 (b)(3)(ii)(b), but that does not define cross country time.
61.1 (b)(3)(i)(C) defines cross country time as ..... time acquired during a flight..... that includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure.
The definition itself has nowt to do with distance (or IMC). I wonder if you departed from runway 22L, flew the pattern, and landed on 22R you could call that landing at a different point from departure point and log it as such? I guess you can log what you want, and people can laugh at you when they like, Trivia city!
BEagle, there are inacuracies because the regulations appear to be unclear and permit ridiculous flying behaviour. That's not safe.
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
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Evo, thanks for your reply - its an interesting route which I'll look into further. I guess a further advantage of doing as you suggest is that you gain some US ratings as well.
When I mentioned doing the flight training in parallel with the ATPL theory I was thinking that the latter would be spread over a year or two (I have a full time job) but the flying would be likely to be done in smaller segments which I would do within the same period. In addition I would prefer to take my time with the ATPL stuff so I can absorb it properly. I had also forgotten that the theory exams had to be passed before the CPL flight test.
FujiF
When I mentioned doing the flight training in parallel with the ATPL theory I was thinking that the latter would be spread over a year or two (I have a full time job) but the flying would be likely to be done in smaller segments which I would do within the same period. In addition I would prefer to take my time with the ATPL stuff so I can absorb it properly. I had also forgotten that the theory exams had to be passed before the CPL flight test.
FujiF
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so it's around 25 hours in the states plus 15 here
In theory if you have the IMC rating and have used it in anger, ie. gained 40 hrs Instrument time or simulated instrument, you only need to do a 15 hr course with an FAA CFII who will carry out the required IFR qualifying cross countries, and endorse you as ready to take the FAA IR skills test. The writtens are a non event, you study yourself and you take the test and either pass or fail. If you fail, you have to fork out another $70 for a re-test. Theoretically you could have an IMC + 30 hrs instrument, take a 15 hr instrument course in the states or UK, get the FAA IR, then fly 10 hrs in a sim, 5 in an aircraft and gain a JAA IR. Though the big stumbling block is the ATPL grounds.
Regarding FAA X/C time, there is really no point logging X/C below 50nm, as it doesn't count for anything under the FARs [for issue of IR / CPL / ATPL etc]. Also for rating requirements, there is no need for the cross country "legs" to be completed in the same day. So if I flew from Long Beach to Sedona, stopped over night, then Sedona to Roswell, stopped over night, then Roswell to Vegas, stopped over night, then Vegas back to Long Beach, this could be counted as one Cross Country trip for the purposes of rating issue [ie "300nm from departure, 3 landings, a leg of at least 150nm" or whatever it is].
Cheers
EA
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EA, et al.
The words from LASORS Section E wrt converting an ICAO IR to JAA IR (or adding a JAA IR to a JAA/CAA PPL/CPL using the ICAO IR as a basis)
------------------
1. Complete a minimum of 15 hours instrument time under instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1 or 10 hours in a FNPT 2 or Flight Simulator.
2. Additional IR training considered necessary by the Head of Training of an approved FTO.
3. Pass a 170A Flight Test.
4. Pass the JAR IR(A) Skill Test.
5. Pass the JAR IR(A) or ATPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge examinations as appropriate.
------------------
Point 2 above may be the gotcha for anyone thinking it is a piece of piss to do it FAA --> JAA.
Also worth remembering that the 170A is going to take about 2 hours, as is the IRT...
LASORS Section E
Edited to add link to LASORS-E
The words from LASORS Section E wrt converting an ICAO IR to JAA IR (or adding a JAA IR to a JAA/CAA PPL/CPL using the ICAO IR as a basis)
------------------
1. Complete a minimum of 15 hours instrument time under instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1 or 10 hours in a FNPT 2 or Flight Simulator.
2. Additional IR training considered necessary by the Head of Training of an approved FTO.
3. Pass a 170A Flight Test.
4. Pass the JAR IR(A) Skill Test.
5. Pass the JAR IR(A) or ATPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge examinations as appropriate.
------------------
Point 2 above may be the gotcha for anyone thinking it is a piece of piss to do it FAA --> JAA.
Also worth remembering that the 170A is going to take about 2 hours, as is the IRT...
LASORS Section E
Edited to add link to LASORS-E
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Point 2 above may be the gotcha for anyone thinking it is a piece of piss to do it FAA --> JAA.
My mate did it, 10 hrs in an FNPT2 5 in the air and passed first time. Still I guess less reputable organisations will try and milk you for as much as possible, which unfortunately seems to often be the way.....
EA
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Some points from earlier posts need correction or amplification:
1.<<You will also be issued an IMC rating by the CAA for free if you hold a foreign IR. Of course in a N reg aircraft with an FAA IR you are perfectly entitled to fly 'proper' IFR in any airspace in the UK / Europe / Abroad.>>
Not free. £67.
2. FAA regs: VFR on Top is requested by a pilot who is operating on an IFR clearance. If granted, you operate at the appropriate VFR altitudes and are responsible for separation, whilst staying on the IFR flight plan. VFR over the top is permitted without an IR, but one has to maintain the appropriate distances (for the airspace) from cloud, and that would usually mean having a BIG 4000' wide hole to descend through at or before the destination.
3. An IMC rating granted on the back of an FAA IR apparently does have to be revalidated after 2 years, regardless of the currency of the FAA IR.
FTD
1.<<You will also be issued an IMC rating by the CAA for free if you hold a foreign IR. Of course in a N reg aircraft with an FAA IR you are perfectly entitled to fly 'proper' IFR in any airspace in the UK / Europe / Abroad.>>
Not free. £67.
2. FAA regs: VFR on Top is requested by a pilot who is operating on an IFR clearance. If granted, you operate at the appropriate VFR altitudes and are responsible for separation, whilst staying on the IFR flight plan. VFR over the top is permitted without an IR, but one has to maintain the appropriate distances (for the airspace) from cloud, and that would usually mean having a BIG 4000' wide hole to descend through at or before the destination.
3. An IMC rating granted on the back of an FAA IR apparently does have to be revalidated after 2 years, regardless of the currency of the FAA IR.
FTD
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On another technicality, I believe that you cannot go VFR on top, as VFR implies that you are in sight of the ground. In fact you would be flying VMC on top, but flying under IFR rules. I think.....
Blue skies.
Blue skies.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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SKYYACHT
Might be worth reminding yourself what the rules really say, then:
Flight within controlled airspace
25.—(1) Within Class B airspace:
(a) an aircraft flying within Class B airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain clear of cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km;
(b) an aircraft flying within Class B airspace below flight level 100 shall remain clear of cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(2) Within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace:
(a) an aircraft flying within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km;
(b) subject to sub-paragraph (c), an aircraft flying within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;
(c) sub-paragraph (b) shall be deemed to be complied with if:
(i) the aircraft is not a helicopter and is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which, according to its airspeed indicator, is 140 knots or less and it remains clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km; or
(ii) the aircraft is a helicopter flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and it remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Flight outside controlled airspace
26.—(1) An aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.
(2)
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(b) Sub-paragraph (a) shall be deemed to be complied with if:
(i) the aircraft is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;
(ii) the aircraft, other than a helicopter, is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is 140 knots or less and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 1500 metres; or
(iii) in the case of a helicopter the helicopter is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level flying at a speed, which having regard to the visibility is reasonable, and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
W
VFR implies that you are in sight of the ground.
Flight within controlled airspace
25.—(1) Within Class B airspace:
(a) an aircraft flying within Class B airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain clear of cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km;
(b) an aircraft flying within Class B airspace below flight level 100 shall remain clear of cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(2) Within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace:
(a) an aircraft flying within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km;
(b) subject to sub-paragraph (c), an aircraft flying within Class C, Class D or Class E airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;
(c) sub-paragraph (b) shall be deemed to be complied with if:
(i) the aircraft is not a helicopter and is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which, according to its airspeed indicator, is 140 knots or less and it remains clear of cloud, in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km; or
(ii) the aircraft is a helicopter flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and it remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
Flight outside controlled airspace
26.—(1) An aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.
(2)
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.
(b) Sub-paragraph (a) shall be deemed to be complied with if:
(i) the aircraft is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;
(ii) the aircraft, other than a helicopter, is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is 140 knots or less and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 1500 metres; or
(iii) in the case of a helicopter the helicopter is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level flying at a speed, which having regard to the visibility is reasonable, and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.
W
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Not free. £67.
An IMC rating granted on the back of an FAA IR apparently does have to be revalidated after 2 years, regardless of the currency of the FAA IR.
EA
An IMC rating granted on the back of an FAA IR apparently does have to be revalidated after 2 years, regardless of the currency of the FAA IR.
If the FAA IR remains current and the IMC rating lapses, the FAA is still rendered valid by Art 21(4) which permits its use on G-reg outside controlled airspace.
The oddity, I guess, is that if it lapses you cannot tear up your old IMC rating, write the CAA a cheque and apply for a new one on the basis of the current FAA IR. Or can you?
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English Al
A question on the points raised in your 24 July post.
Concerning an FAA IR used in a G reg flown in France etc.
You stated it is allowed to fly out of sight of the surface outside of controlled airspace, do you mean fly by the French definition of VMC rather than in IMC?
You also gave the impression that you can fly in actual IMC , but again outside of controlled airspace. Does this then exclude approaches in IMC and transits of C D and E airspace in IMC?
If so this makes the use of an FAA IR in a G reg pretty restricted.
You also in two different posts mentioned that credit would be given for instrument hours flown when undertaking training for an FAA IR, but you gave two different figures, 50 hours, and 40 hours.
Sorry to ask the questions, but the topic is of great interest, and any clarification very welcome.
A question on the points raised in your 24 July post.
Concerning an FAA IR used in a G reg flown in France etc.
You stated it is allowed to fly out of sight of the surface outside of controlled airspace, do you mean fly by the French definition of VMC rather than in IMC?
You also gave the impression that you can fly in actual IMC , but again outside of controlled airspace. Does this then exclude approaches in IMC and transits of C D and E airspace in IMC?
If so this makes the use of an FAA IR in a G reg pretty restricted.
You also in two different posts mentioned that credit would be given for instrument hours flown when undertaking training for an FAA IR, but you gave two different figures, 50 hours, and 40 hours.
Sorry to ask the questions, but the topic is of great interest, and any clarification very welcome.
Thread Starter
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Just a quick message to say thanks for all the info! I never thought it would go on this far!… You’ve certainly answered my question so thanks very much to you all.
Cheers
Grob Driver
Cheers
Grob Driver
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Blueskis,
No, because the the ANO allows an ICAO IR holder to exercise the privileges of the rating in a G reg without formality, but only outside CAS. Now as the French recognise the british ruling on this they also allow the holder to exercise the privileges of this rating in a G reg outside their CAS. This means you can fly in actual IMC, out of sight of the surface outside CAS in France [and Germany etc]
Correct, as you are not allowed inside CAS while flying in accordance with IFR with an ICAO IR in a G reg plane, you cannot shoot an approach.
Ah sorry, I was getting ahead of myself there. The FAA IR requires 40 hrs instrument time [simulated or actual] before you take the flight test. 15hrs of this must have been done with an FAA CFII who needs to endorse you as ready for the flight test, and you must have completed a qualifying cross country which is a flight of 250nm I think, in airways under an air traffic controlled routing or something along those lines. So in theory, an IMC holder with 25hrs actual instrument [or simulated] could take a 15hr course with an FAA CFII and walk away with an IR. Note that this is instrument time and not "under IFR".
The way the IMC rating is worded is that it allows flight in IMC IFR outside controlled airspace but then there is an exception for Class D and below, meaning you can shoot an approach. When talking about an ICAO IR this exception doesn't exist which leads to the outside CAS thing. I think there is some confusion in the CAA over this, a friend of mine who is an FAA CFII and JAA FI had it confirmed verbally that holding an ICAO IR "gives the same privileges as the IMC rating". IF this statement was issued in writing it would then mean that an ICAO IR holder could exercise the privileges of the IMC rating throughout Europe in a G reg as the foreign CAA's effectively accept the CAA's validations without formality. In fact the French will now give you an IR based upon your FAA IR as long as you are non resident in the EU and can prove it.
Cheers
EA
You stated it is allowed to fly out of sight of the surface outside of controlled airspace, do you mean fly by the French definition of VMC rather than in IMC?
You also gave the impression that you can fly in actual IMC , but again outside of controlled airspace. Does this then exclude approaches in IMC and transits of C D and E airspace in IMC?
You also in two different posts mentioned that credit would be given for instrument hours flown when undertaking training for an FAA IR, but you gave two different figures, 50 hours, and 40 hours.
The way the IMC rating is worded is that it allows flight in IMC IFR outside controlled airspace but then there is an exception for Class D and below, meaning you can shoot an approach. When talking about an ICAO IR this exception doesn't exist which leads to the outside CAS thing. I think there is some confusion in the CAA over this, a friend of mine who is an FAA CFII and JAA FI had it confirmed verbally that holding an ICAO IR "gives the same privileges as the IMC rating". IF this statement was issued in writing it would then mean that an ICAO IR holder could exercise the privileges of the IMC rating throughout Europe in a G reg as the foreign CAA's effectively accept the CAA's validations without formality. In fact the French will now give you an IR based upon your FAA IR as long as you are non resident in the EU and can prove it.
Cheers
EA
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Englishal
Sorry to contradict, but your understanding of French airspace is dangerously wrong.
You are correct to say that an ICAO IR holder may exercise the rights to fly in IMC outside controlled airspace. Where you go wrong is in assuming that this applies in France.
In France, nobody may fly in conditions less than VMC unless they are under IFR (surprise surprise). To be IFR in France requires the commander of an aircraft to hold a valid instrument rating and to have filed an IFR flight plan. No problem if you have an FAA IR and you are in an N-reg aircraft.
You are half right that the French take the view that if something is legal in the pilot's home country, then it is OK in France too. This only applies if the proposed activity is also legal in France.
Flying under VFR above a solid cloud layer is legal in France. Therefore, the French take the view that if it is also legal for you at home, then it is legal for you to do it in France. By contrast, the whole concept of flying in cloud, without an IFR flight plan, and without a current and valid IR is totally illegal in France, and will not be allowed for you, just because you can do it under the ANO in British airspace.
If you wish to validate and FAA IR for IFR flight in France, you must be a non-EU resident, and the validation is a temporary one.
If you want to fly in cloud in France, there is no way that this can currently be achieved without a valid or validated IR.
Trust me.
Charlie.
Sorry to contradict, but your understanding of French airspace is dangerously wrong.
You are correct to say that an ICAO IR holder may exercise the rights to fly in IMC outside controlled airspace. Where you go wrong is in assuming that this applies in France.
In France, nobody may fly in conditions less than VMC unless they are under IFR (surprise surprise). To be IFR in France requires the commander of an aircraft to hold a valid instrument rating and to have filed an IFR flight plan. No problem if you have an FAA IR and you are in an N-reg aircraft.
You are half right that the French take the view that if something is legal in the pilot's home country, then it is OK in France too. This only applies if the proposed activity is also legal in France.
Flying under VFR above a solid cloud layer is legal in France. Therefore, the French take the view that if it is also legal for you at home, then it is legal for you to do it in France. By contrast, the whole concept of flying in cloud, without an IFR flight plan, and without a current and valid IR is totally illegal in France, and will not be allowed for you, just because you can do it under the ANO in British airspace.
If you wish to validate and FAA IR for IFR flight in France, you must be a non-EU resident, and the validation is a temporary one.
If you want to fly in cloud in France, there is no way that this can currently be achieved without a valid or validated IR.
Trust me.
Charlie.