Mobile phones on the apron
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
Mobile phones on the apron
Sorry if this has been asked many times before, but have there been any actual recorded events where a mobile phone has caused an aeroplane (or indeed car) to explode?
W
W
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
It's a risk in a quarry where they have blasting caps - the RF can set off a detonator (so I'm told - never tried it, not even in my misspent yoof).
If the 100 watts or more of pulsed RF from the transponder don't cause an aircraft to explode, the few watts from the mobile phone aren't likely to do so, either. Especially since the signal strength reduces proportional to the square of the distance.
But such "risks" are the sort of story dreamed up by officious officials to justify their rulemaking.
There are folks in this world who are horrified by the thought that someone, somewhere, may be having fun - and they will invent rules as fast as they can go to change all that.
Have you had such an experience?
Maybe you need a copy of some learned scientific sheet on field strengths etc?
If the 100 watts or more of pulsed RF from the transponder don't cause an aircraft to explode, the few watts from the mobile phone aren't likely to do so, either. Especially since the signal strength reduces proportional to the square of the distance.
But such "risks" are the sort of story dreamed up by officious officials to justify their rulemaking.
There are folks in this world who are horrified by the thought that someone, somewhere, may be having fun - and they will invent rules as fast as they can go to change all that.
Have you had such an experience?
Maybe you need a copy of some learned scientific sheet on field strengths etc?
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
There was a document that claimed there had been 3 such events on Shell petrol station forecourts. It got circulated by my company's health and safety department to all staff.
This from Shell's website:
Urban myth....?
This from Shell's website:
We understand that there is an email, purportedly official Shell communication, circulating which describes various incidents that are supposed to have occured as a result of mobile phones ringing while at a retail station.
Please be advised that the email in question does NOT originate from Shell Malaysia and we are unable to confirm any of the incidents quoted.
Please be advised that the email in question does NOT originate from Shell Malaysia and we are unable to confirm any of the incidents quoted.
Thread Starter
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: London
Urban myth....?
Isn't there supposed to be an office in Government which stops bloody stupid red-tape creating rule-making?
W
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
Most UK petrol stations display a "no mobile phones" warning. Until the advent of mobile phones, nobody thought about it.
I was using amateur radio mobile equipment from the 1960s on, and never had a warning about RF causing explosions till cellphones appeared on the scene.
Urban myth, with a remote possibility - a strong enough RF field could generate a spark, but it would need to be a pretty strong field. I doubt a cellphone could do it.
But in this day and age, regulation is the "norm". Health and Safety, Litigation, and petty bureaucracy have a natural tendency to proliferate. Smile, and ignore the daft rules, that's what I do.
I was using amateur radio mobile equipment from the 1960s on, and never had a warning about RF causing explosions till cellphones appeared on the scene.
Urban myth, with a remote possibility - a strong enough RF field could generate a spark, but it would need to be a pretty strong field. I doubt a cellphone could do it.
But in this day and age, regulation is the "norm". Health and Safety, Litigation, and petty bureaucracy have a natural tendency to proliferate. Smile, and ignore the daft rules, that's what I do.
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
I heard that the only reason that mobiles weren't allowed on garage forecourts was because they interfered with the fuel metering system and punters were getting 50 litres for the cost of 5 etc.
Car radio's aren't banned on forecourts, neither are CB radio's. Seems like a load of old tosh that one might cause something to explode.
Car radio's aren't banned on forecourts, neither are CB radio's. Seems like a load of old tosh that one might cause something to explode.
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Big Nil By Addenten
I have been involved in aviation on a prfessional basis for some 35 years, including 3,500 hours as Space Shuttle captain. During this time I have encountered many instances of aircraft exploding on ramps near to fuel bowsers, as a result of unthinking pilots using mobile phones. It should be noted, however, that all these aircraft were Beech Bonanzas, which are seriously hot ships, and not to be confused with the kind of 'ordinary' aircraft which you plebs fly.
Crab out.
Crab out.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 437
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From: Far East
i believe car radios are banned on petrol forecourts since they instruct one to switch off engine and ignition.
When you consider that mobiles have batteries in side them and that many people wear them on their belts, just think how close they come to the nozzle of the fuel pump during refueling and how much vapour escapes out of the filler pipe, particularly on a hot day. .. a knackered old phone, a call coming in just as you spill some petrol.
In oz they have had cases of explosions due to mobiles ccording to local papers.
When you consider that mobiles have batteries in side them and that many people wear them on their belts, just think how close they come to the nozzle of the fuel pump during refueling and how much vapour escapes out of the filler pipe, particularly on a hot day. .. a knackered old phone, a call coming in just as you spill some petrol.
In oz they have had cases of explosions due to mobiles ccording to local papers.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: UK
I think that the Shell document originated with Shell UK.
I've seen it posted up, on Shell headed paper, refering to incidents at petrol stations in Britain, at a Shell filling station on the A303 in Hampshire.
G
I've seen it posted up, on Shell headed paper, refering to incidents at petrol stations in Britain, at a Shell filling station on the A303 in Hampshire.
G
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
Probably more dangerous to wear glasses when fueling, just think if the suns rays caught the lens at some bizzare angle [like when you're a kid and go around burning stuff with a magnifying glass] and caused the fuel bowser to explode.....
Or imagine if you were stung in the throat by a bee while fueling, suffered anaphlactic shock, stumbled though lack of oxygen and started pouring fuel all over the hot exhaust...Maybe we should all wear SARS facemasks while filling with petrol, just in case
Or imagine if you were stung in the throat by a bee while fueling, suffered anaphlactic shock, stumbled though lack of oxygen and started pouring fuel all over the hot exhaust...Maybe we should all wear SARS facemasks while filling with petrol, just in case
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey thanks guys, you've just cleared up a mystery for me-
My new Nokia has a third button beside the green phone button (to start yakking), red phone button (to stop yakking). I've been wondering what it was for.
It must be the detonate button.
SD
My new Nokia has a third button beside the green phone button (to start yakking), red phone button (to stop yakking). I've been wondering what it was for.
It must be the detonate button.
SD
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 510
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From: England
Ok, time for some facts:
As Keef correctly points out, strong radio-frequency (RF) fields can produce sparks between unbonded conductors (metal objects that aren't connected together to you and me) but, we are talking about typical powers of the order of 100 watts, way out of the range of mobile phones.
I too understand that the risk was first identified at quarries in the United States.
From my days as a scientist at the Safety-in-Mines Research Establishments I recall that for any particular explosive atmosphere of fuel and air there is a minimum energy spark required before ignition can take place. We designed mining equipment so that a failure at any point in the equipment would not be able to produce a spark of sufficient energy for ignition. Such equipment is known as "Intrinsically Safe".
Now, mobile phones are not Intrinsically Safe, but it is not the fact that they have a transmitter in them that creates the greatest hazard, it is the rechargable battery. Before you get too worried about this, can I remind you that a torch, a Walkman, a Camera, etc also contain batteries, and given the quality of construction, I would think that mobile phones are much safer than cheap torches.
Putting the risk into perspective, its probably similar to that from a pair of glasses (convex lenses for long-sight). i.e. too small to justify printing posters about, but we do seem to live in a crazy world.
I would guess than clothing made of man-made fibres would be a higher risk. You can get some impressive sparks from the static charges this type of clothing generates during low humidity. Not too many posters warning about this are there?
Getting hit by another car while walking to the till is probably the greatest hazard on a forecourt.
As Keef correctly points out, strong radio-frequency (RF) fields can produce sparks between unbonded conductors (metal objects that aren't connected together to you and me) but, we are talking about typical powers of the order of 100 watts, way out of the range of mobile phones.
I too understand that the risk was first identified at quarries in the United States.
From my days as a scientist at the Safety-in-Mines Research Establishments I recall that for any particular explosive atmosphere of fuel and air there is a minimum energy spark required before ignition can take place. We designed mining equipment so that a failure at any point in the equipment would not be able to produce a spark of sufficient energy for ignition. Such equipment is known as "Intrinsically Safe".
Now, mobile phones are not Intrinsically Safe, but it is not the fact that they have a transmitter in them that creates the greatest hazard, it is the rechargable battery. Before you get too worried about this, can I remind you that a torch, a Walkman, a Camera, etc also contain batteries, and given the quality of construction, I would think that mobile phones are much safer than cheap torches.
Putting the risk into perspective, its probably similar to that from a pair of glasses (convex lenses for long-sight). i.e. too small to justify printing posters about, but we do seem to live in a crazy world.
I would guess than clothing made of man-made fibres would be a higher risk. You can get some impressive sparks from the static charges this type of clothing generates during low humidity. Not too many posters warning about this are there?
Getting hit by another car while walking to the till is probably the greatest hazard on a forecourt.
Player of Games
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 161
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From: Flatland
You have to be a little unlucky to make anything blow up
with a mobile phone...however, personal radio's and CB's
particularly those with illegal amps are potential hazards
in the context of filling the petrol tanks of either aircraft
or cars.
Typical mobile is generating up to 0.25W, while personal
radio / CB's might be 20-100 times stronger.
It was CB's which turned up to eleven would screw up
the electronics in automatic pump systems.
-- Andrew
with a mobile phone...however, personal radio's and CB's
particularly those with illegal amps are potential hazards
in the context of filling the petrol tanks of either aircraft
or cars.
Typical mobile is generating up to 0.25W, while personal
radio / CB's might be 20-100 times stronger.
It was CB's which turned up to eleven would screw up
the electronics in automatic pump systems.
-- Andrew
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Io
Mobile Phones
Apocryphal tales abound. As previously mentioned, the main reason for not using mobile phones on forecourts and places such as aircraft is to prevent interference with other electrical systems (it has caused some issues on airliners). The CB radios that lorry drivers use are more likely to cause an explosion. In quarries and mines specialist telephones with carbon fibre bodies (referred to as intrinsically safe) are used to prevent static discharges igniting vapours etc. Although it would be wise to remove anything that emits em energy.
Where mobile phones are concerned, does anyone know if;
a. Anyone has a brain tumour yet from using their Nokia?
b. Any filling stations have exploded?
c. What is the highest score in Pac Man on the Nokia 660?
Where mobile phones are concerned, does anyone know if;
a. Anyone has a brain tumour yet from using their Nokia?
b. Any filling stations have exploded?
c. What is the highest score in Pac Man on the Nokia 660?
Last edited by Maxflyer; 11th July 2003 at 06:51.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Dorset
Agree with all the above (particularly the basic facts presented by people such as QNH1013 / Maxflyer and others). As with all things, a modicum of common sense, correctly applied, goes a long way.
eg. When I was flying a PA28 at night out of Bournemouth and wanted to refuel at the end of the sortie, the E$$o (don't want any advertising, do we, BRL
) bowser would turn up and need to see inside the tanks to refuel to the tabs. As he'd quite often not have a free hand, he'd ask me to shine a torch into the tank. He'd usually offer me his intrinsically safe one, but on occasions, that may not have been readily available, so I would use my Maglite (sorry, unintentional advertising, BRL! ) to illuminate it. Common sense dictated, however, that it would be turned on / off at a safe distance from the filler / nozzle to eliminate possible risks from arcing switch contacts.
So, I would say that the risks associated with mobile phones are predominantly due to RF field energy and switching on / off. If you're a few metres away from any ready source of petrol vapour, then there's no issue. With Jet-A1 / AVTUR / Diesel, I believe that the vapour pressure is so much lower that I would pretty well say the risk is so low as to be below negligible.
HOWEVER, Health and Safety is all about minimising risks, so I'm sure they will try to reduce a 'below negligible risk' to zero!!
eg. When I was flying a PA28 at night out of Bournemouth and wanted to refuel at the end of the sortie, the E$$o (don't want any advertising, do we, BRL
) bowser would turn up and need to see inside the tanks to refuel to the tabs. As he'd quite often not have a free hand, he'd ask me to shine a torch into the tank. He'd usually offer me his intrinsically safe one, but on occasions, that may not have been readily available, so I would use my Maglite (sorry, unintentional advertising, BRL! ) to illuminate it. Common sense dictated, however, that it would be turned on / off at a safe distance from the filler / nozzle to eliminate possible risks from arcing switch contacts.So, I would say that the risks associated with mobile phones are predominantly due to RF field energy and switching on / off. If you're a few metres away from any ready source of petrol vapour, then there's no issue. With Jet-A1 / AVTUR / Diesel, I believe that the vapour pressure is so much lower that I would pretty well say the risk is so low as to be below negligible.
HOWEVER, Health and Safety is all about minimising risks, so I'm sure they will try to reduce a 'below negligible risk' to zero!!