Biggin Hill - An accident waiting to happen?
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At Barton an area of apron from in front of the hangars to the fuel pumps was released by the AFISO's so that a/c could start up and taxy between each without radio.
This reduced the amount of radio traffic of a minor nature and unloaded the single Info Freq
Are there parts of the manouvering area at Biggin that could similarly be freed from the requirement to call for taxy? Along with the very sensible suggestion of telephone booking out might this improve the situation.?
BTW Have you noticed on Pprune how people, the subject of critiscm, (real or perceived) always seek to remove the discussion from the public forum?
BTW2 How about [email protected] ?
Sir George Cayley
The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door
This reduced the amount of radio traffic of a minor nature and unloaded the single Info Freq
Are there parts of the manouvering area at Biggin that could similarly be freed from the requirement to call for taxy? Along with the very sensible suggestion of telephone booking out might this improve the situation.?
BTW Have you noticed on Pprune how people, the subject of critiscm, (real or perceived) always seek to remove the discussion from the public forum?
BTW2 How about [email protected] ?
Sir George Cayley
The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door
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The reason why they don't like doing the washing in public on PPrune is because they know fine that in double quick time the CAA ATC inspectors will find out about it.
The ones I have met have all been very pleasant, but I presume being on the end of some searching questions on an inspection isn't. And if they get told they require additional controllers for 2 frequencys it proberly has huge ramifications to staffing and costs.
I wouldn't let them know who you are either or which plane you fly.
MJ
The ones I have met have all been very pleasant, but I presume being on the end of some searching questions on an inspection isn't. And if they get told they require additional controllers for 2 frequencys it proberly has huge ramifications to staffing and costs.
I wouldn't let them know who you are either or which plane you fly.
MJ
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BH
Unfortunately by your quote, you have perpetuated the comment that I suggested was unhelpful and could be removed.....would you mind following suit?
Mad Jock
Speaking as someone who raised an MOR regarding Alan Mann Avionics and was, not long after, summarily thrown out from the much sought after hangar which I had occupied for 11 years, I can understand the concern.....
but....
Do you really think that you will get 'picked on' by Biggin controllers for raising a flight safety concern? The ones I have met seem too nice and level headed for such pettiness.
If I were them I would be more insulted by this suggestion than I was by the original outburst!
W
Unfortunately by your quote, you have perpetuated the comment that I suggested was unhelpful and could be removed.....would you mind following suit?
Mad Jock
Speaking as someone who raised an MOR regarding Alan Mann Avionics and was, not long after, summarily thrown out from the much sought after hangar which I had occupied for 11 years, I can understand the concern.....
but....
Do you really think that you will get 'picked on' by Biggin controllers for raising a flight safety concern? The ones I have met seem too nice and level headed for such pettiness.
If I were them I would be more insulted by this suggestion than I was by the original outburst!
W
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Biggin Hill ATC - run by Serco I believe.
Don't blame the atcos, it's not their fault that their employers work on the basis of maximum profit for minimal SRG approved staffing.
Don't blame the atcos, it's not their fault that their employers work on the basis of maximum profit for minimal SRG approved staffing.
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niknak.
As far as I can see from all the post's on this thread, no one is blaming the ATCO's, infact quite the opposite. Seems to me that Bigg Hilly is praising the ATCO's and is taking a brave step in highlighting this issue. Wonder if SERCo know what's happening at this unit!
Don't blame the atcos, it's not their fault that their employers work on the basis of maximum profit for minimal SRG approved staffing
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B and S
Perhaps I phrased my comments inappropriatley, I know that the Biggin ATCOs work very hard, and the staffing situation is not of their doing.
My point is that SRG / Serco and the owners of Biggin Hill are very well aware that they need extra ATCO staff and that there should be separate aerodrome and approach frequencies operational at all times, something that they all seem unwilling to do anything about - until such time as a serious incident or worse happens - at which time they will all bury their heads in the sand and blame the coal face workers.
Apologies to the Biggin ATC staff for any misunderstanding.
Perhaps I phrased my comments inappropriatley, I know that the Biggin ATCOs work very hard, and the staffing situation is not of their doing.
My point is that SRG / Serco and the owners of Biggin Hill are very well aware that they need extra ATCO staff and that there should be separate aerodrome and approach frequencies operational at all times, something that they all seem unwilling to do anything about - until such time as a serious incident or worse happens - at which time they will all bury their heads in the sand and blame the coal face workers.
Apologies to the Biggin ATC staff for any misunderstanding.
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niknak.
Sounds like you have some inside knowledge of Biggin Hill and or SERCO! Are you saying that the CAA AND SERCO know that Biggin ATCO's are overloaded at times? If this is the case then I think the said ATCO's should strike until the situation has been resolved by either dividing the ATC functions by getting in more staff OR has have previously been mentioned, a strict PPR booking system implemented. It seems which ever way you look at it, they need more staff, unless their rostering system could be changed. I'd hate to be a EGKB ATCO bearing in mind SRG, SERCo and your airport owners are un-willing to change your situation as niknak states.
My point is that SRG / Serco and the owners of Biggin Hill are very well aware that they need extra ATCO staff and that there should be separate aerodrome and approach frequencies operational at all times, something that they all seem unwilling to do anything about - until such time as a serious incident or worse happens - at which time they will all bury their heads in the sand and blame the coal face workers.
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BH
It was not you who I was suggesting had registered under a new user name to write your post, it was one of the chaps before you. I am completely agreeable with your concerns and the reaction this thread has received seems to have definitely touched a raw nerve with a few of the people directly involved with the airfield.
It was not you who I was suggesting had registered under a new user name to write your post, it was one of the chaps before you. I am completely agreeable with your concerns and the reaction this thread has received seems to have definitely touched a raw nerve with a few of the people directly involved with the airfield.
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Question from a pilot, about booking out by telephone...
How does this help, exactly? I'm not denying it does, I'm just curious as to how.
I don't often fly in an ATC environment. But in my experience, if I book out over the radio, I call up whenever I'm ready and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going.
On the other hand, if I book out by telephone, I call up 5 minutes before I'm ready to leave, tell the controller my call-sign, where I'm going, and when. Then, 5 minutes later, I call up on the radio and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going. If anything, it seems to create more work, with the (apparently)rather dubious advantage that you have 5 minutes' notice of my movements. Does that really help?
Anyone care to enlighten me? Flower? Anyone else? Thanks!
FFF
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How does this help, exactly? I'm not denying it does, I'm just curious as to how.
I don't often fly in an ATC environment. But in my experience, if I book out over the radio, I call up whenever I'm ready and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going.
On the other hand, if I book out by telephone, I call up 5 minutes before I'm ready to leave, tell the controller my call-sign, where I'm going, and when. Then, 5 minutes later, I call up on the radio and tell the controller my call-sign and where I'm going. If anything, it seems to create more work, with the (apparently)rather dubious advantage that you have 5 minutes' notice of my movements. Does that really help?
Anyone care to enlighten me? Flower? Anyone else? Thanks!
FFF
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Having been used to the Bournemouth system, which is booking out by phone, I know the controllers prefer it. It does actually save time if done properly (ie) Establish contact, say what needs to be said and end contact. Telephone allows duplex ommunication, rather than saying it all, then getting the questions back afterwards and then having to retransmit. Also, with tyro pilots (no offence meant 
), using a telephone tends to mean far less 'ermm.... err..... standby', etc. It also means that to some extent the ATCO can receive the booking out message whilst monitoring the active frequency / circuit / ground movements in the background and keeping his / her eye on the ball.
It certainly reduces the level of radio traffic to permit standard zone / circuit calls to be fitted in.
), using a telephone tends to mean far less 'ermm.... err..... standby', etc. It also means that to some extent the ATCO can receive the booking out message whilst monitoring the active frequency / circuit / ground movements in the background and keeping his / her eye on the ball.It certainly reduces the level of radio traffic to permit standard zone / circuit calls to be fitted in.
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Flower we do have ATSA but with all the A/C based at biggin It would literally be a full time job just answering the phone.
WIZPIGBIG, surely then, by employing somebody full time would increase flight safety for all by reducing the ATCO's workload. This should be the priority after all.
WIZPIGBIG, surely then, by employing somebody full time would increase flight safety for all by reducing the ATCO's workload. This should be the priority after all.
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I'm not moaning. I like Biggin
As a suggesttion why not make the ATIS not only Dep info but also Arr Info
Surely freq time would be reduced if a pilot made his initial call with the Info letter and the QFE Job done then
As a suggesttion why not make the ATIS not only Dep info but also Arr Info
Surely freq time would be reduced if a pilot made his initial call with the Info letter and the QFE Job done then
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FFF, booking out by telephone or in person is in use at Elstree. They want (need?) to know your destination, the captain's surname and the number of POB. This information is put on the flight strip. When you are subsequently ready to go you can just ask for airfield information and/or taxi instructions; you don't need to give them this information again, which saves RT time.
On the topic of the main thread, I think it is a sad state of affairs that someone raises these concerns, in a pretty appropriate way (particularly after some additional clarification of the more colourful language in the original post) and is criticized for doing so by people involved. If people don't agree with those safety concerns they can voice their contrary opinions. That is what discussion is all about. And if the CAA do come and read this stuff I'm sure they're smart enough to interpret what they read - they're not going to shoot someone on the basis of the first post.
On the topic of the main thread, I think it is a sad state of affairs that someone raises these concerns, in a pretty appropriate way (particularly after some additional clarification of the more colourful language in the original post) and is criticized for doing so by people involved. If people don't agree with those safety concerns they can voice their contrary opinions. That is what discussion is all about. And if the CAA do come and read this stuff I'm sure they're smart enough to interpret what they read - they're not going to shoot someone on the basis of the first post.
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Ok back to the subject......
Firstly lets get a few things straight.
1) CAA SRG carry out an inspection of Biggin ATC every 12 months. The ATC Unit has the appropriate approval to operate issued by them. The matter of controller workload has always been discussed during these inspections. What constitutes a busy traffic situation, however, is purely the opinion of the ATC Inspector not a pre-determined number of aircraft. I have no fears or problems with the content of this thread becoming known to the CAA, I work with them on all ATC matters.
2) Lets not start SERCo bashing, it is not relevant. Although we are SERCo employees the staffing compliment and working rosters are determined locally. 'Head Office' inspect the ATC Unit on a regular basis and this includes any items brought up by SRG.
3) Pre-flight booking out...... this idea has been suggested many times over the years. The ATSA staff employed here are very experienced but are already stretched on busy days. Any telephone method of booking out would require more staff.
4) Total aircraft movements on Saturday were 596 of which 47 occurred between 1700 and 1800 local. Compare that with the some other airfields at their busy times (Shoreham, Oxford and Cranfield come to mind) and I think you will find it is not excessive. The combing of operations onto one frequency would have happened at around 1730 so maybe half that number were affected by single frequency ops.
Moving on.....
I could dig deeper into this matter and start playing back R/T recordings, interviewing staff, examining paper reocrds etc but this would take time and is not really productive when the
perceived problem is wider than just that one Saturday.
As mentioned elsewhere the nature of the traffic flow at Biggin is sometimes predictable but not always so. I have had controllers rostered to work 2 frequencies only to have both of them sit there watching the grass grow for no reason other than people aren't interested in flying that day. Not a very efficient use of manpower really and actually has a negative effect on staff morale.
We have tried various different working roster patterns to attempt a more flexible approach, but these rosters have to fulfil both the aerodrome hours of operation and the legal limitation on
controllers working hours. I do not intend to type out the entire 'Scheme for Limitation of Air Traffic Controllers Hours' here.
If anyone is really interested then CAP670 'Air Traffic Services Safety Requirements' refers.
Due to these hours limitations we get to a stage at 1630 local on weekends when the traffic situation has to be assessed by those on duty and a decision made as to how long we can maintain
two frequencies. Keep them going for too long and one controller will exceed duty hours and another controller gets less than the required rest period. There have been times when the rules on hours have been busted because it was too busy to drop one controller into the poo.
The alternative, which is demanded by the CAA, is to introduce restrictions on traffic flow so that it remains containable on one frequency. This we do, usually by stopping high useage flights like
circuit training. I reserve the right to put in place more draconian measures but do my utmost to avoid this.
On my desk as I type this I have yet another different working roster that I would like to try. It is not a panacea for all ills and will not kill 99% of all known germs, but it might relieve some of
the weekend 'tea time rush' problem. It still needs consultation with staff and CAA before introduction.
I bring to the attention of everyone reading this thread that Biggin has an excellent safety record. This is entirely due to the proffesional attitude of my staff and the understanding and co-operation we receive from the aircrew using the airport, from Student to Proffesional pilot. I would have much preffered to have had a straight conversation on this issue and not to have had to resort to so much typing. Whether intended or not placing threads like this in the public domain does place a slur on the airport and its staff which I consider is not warranted and which I will defend.
Waiting for the return postings.......
SATCO
Biggin Hill
Firstly lets get a few things straight.
1) CAA SRG carry out an inspection of Biggin ATC every 12 months. The ATC Unit has the appropriate approval to operate issued by them. The matter of controller workload has always been discussed during these inspections. What constitutes a busy traffic situation, however, is purely the opinion of the ATC Inspector not a pre-determined number of aircraft. I have no fears or problems with the content of this thread becoming known to the CAA, I work with them on all ATC matters.
2) Lets not start SERCo bashing, it is not relevant. Although we are SERCo employees the staffing compliment and working rosters are determined locally. 'Head Office' inspect the ATC Unit on a regular basis and this includes any items brought up by SRG.
3) Pre-flight booking out...... this idea has been suggested many times over the years. The ATSA staff employed here are very experienced but are already stretched on busy days. Any telephone method of booking out would require more staff.
4) Total aircraft movements on Saturday were 596 of which 47 occurred between 1700 and 1800 local. Compare that with the some other airfields at their busy times (Shoreham, Oxford and Cranfield come to mind) and I think you will find it is not excessive. The combing of operations onto one frequency would have happened at around 1730 so maybe half that number were affected by single frequency ops.
Moving on.....
I could dig deeper into this matter and start playing back R/T recordings, interviewing staff, examining paper reocrds etc but this would take time and is not really productive when the
perceived problem is wider than just that one Saturday.
As mentioned elsewhere the nature of the traffic flow at Biggin is sometimes predictable but not always so. I have had controllers rostered to work 2 frequencies only to have both of them sit there watching the grass grow for no reason other than people aren't interested in flying that day. Not a very efficient use of manpower really and actually has a negative effect on staff morale.
We have tried various different working roster patterns to attempt a more flexible approach, but these rosters have to fulfil both the aerodrome hours of operation and the legal limitation on
controllers working hours. I do not intend to type out the entire 'Scheme for Limitation of Air Traffic Controllers Hours' here.
If anyone is really interested then CAP670 'Air Traffic Services Safety Requirements' refers.
Due to these hours limitations we get to a stage at 1630 local on weekends when the traffic situation has to be assessed by those on duty and a decision made as to how long we can maintain
two frequencies. Keep them going for too long and one controller will exceed duty hours and another controller gets less than the required rest period. There have been times when the rules on hours have been busted because it was too busy to drop one controller into the poo.
The alternative, which is demanded by the CAA, is to introduce restrictions on traffic flow so that it remains containable on one frequency. This we do, usually by stopping high useage flights like
circuit training. I reserve the right to put in place more draconian measures but do my utmost to avoid this.
On my desk as I type this I have yet another different working roster that I would like to try. It is not a panacea for all ills and will not kill 99% of all known germs, but it might relieve some of
the weekend 'tea time rush' problem. It still needs consultation with staff and CAA before introduction.
I bring to the attention of everyone reading this thread that Biggin has an excellent safety record. This is entirely due to the proffesional attitude of my staff and the understanding and co-operation we receive from the aircrew using the airport, from Student to Proffesional pilot. I would have much preffered to have had a straight conversation on this issue and not to have had to resort to so much typing. Whether intended or not placing threads like this in the public domain does place a slur on the airport and its staff which I consider is not warranted and which I will defend.
Waiting for the return postings.......
SATCO
Biggin Hill
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TMC.
I used to know a controller who worked at Biggin Hill, he always said that the ATCO staff never worked nearly half of what they were legally allowed to. Is this still the same? If it's the same then surely if you were to make the ATCO's work a few more hours (ie what they are actually rostered to do) thus enabling the ability to use 2 frequencys. Perhaps the rostering system has changed since then but this was always the case. I don't really undserstand why the ATCO's wouldn't want there to be 2 freq's in use all the time themselves, it might mean they worked a few more hours a day but would be safer and and would reduce their actuall workload by 50%? Perhaps I'm missing the reason for reluctance to use 2 freq's? 
Who are you Bigg Hilly?
We have tried various different working roster patterns to attempt a more flexible approach, but these rosters have to fulfil both the aerodrome hours of operation and the legal limitation on
Who are you Bigg Hilly?
Last edited by CAUTION VORTEX WAKE; 8th Jul 2003 at 20:16.
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TMC,
Many thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively.
I will say this one last time: The controllers at Biggin are a credit to you - utterly superb and professional at all times. In no way was it ever my intention to 'slur' the controllers or Biggin itself, simply to have a frank and OPEN (i.e. not behind closed doors) discussion about something that I, and it would seem, many other people are concerned about. You say that maybe we should have 'had a chat' about my concerns - but frankly, if the CAA are unable to influence this issue, I see little that a 'chat' with me would achieve.
The job of SATCO in any ATC unit is an invidious one - constantly juggling everything in order to keep the ship afloat and I am full of admiration and respect for what you do there. However, to be honest, your post has done little to alleviate my concerns. You say that
That averages out at one movement every 76 seconds between 17:00 AND 18:00!!!!! Not far that off a major international airport and they have considerably more than one ATCO operating just one frequency! Let us also not forget that the ‘47 movements’ do not include, say, ground vehicle’s having to be controlled or indeed the co-ordination between you and other Radar units e.g. Thames. I will say it again, this is simply unsafe!
Also, and feel free to correct me here, as far as I can gather from your post, the only thing stopping you from operating two frequencies more often is a roster problem – here we come back to the rumours from the bar which I will not bring up here – but surely this can be worked around? As you said you have a new system that may well solve the problem and we can hope to see an improvement sometime soon.
One final point, and please if the Moderators feel this to be ‘stepping over the line’ then please feel free to delete this paragraph:
Wizzybigpiggy, or whatever he was called, if he IS (as he claims to be) part of your operation, then he has single-handedly sullied the good name of Biggin ATC with his un-inarticulate arguments, cheap jibes and offensive tone and I pity the other, excellent controllers who would have to put up with his Neanderthal ways.
Best wishes,
BH
Many thanks for taking the time to reply so comprehensively.
I will say this one last time: The controllers at Biggin are a credit to you - utterly superb and professional at all times. In no way was it ever my intention to 'slur' the controllers or Biggin itself, simply to have a frank and OPEN (i.e. not behind closed doors) discussion about something that I, and it would seem, many other people are concerned about. You say that maybe we should have 'had a chat' about my concerns - but frankly, if the CAA are unable to influence this issue, I see little that a 'chat' with me would achieve.
The job of SATCO in any ATC unit is an invidious one - constantly juggling everything in order to keep the ship afloat and I am full of admiration and respect for what you do there. However, to be honest, your post has done little to alleviate my concerns. You say that
Total aircraft movements on Saturday . . . . . of which 47 occurred between 1700 and 1800 local.
Also, and feel free to correct me here, as far as I can gather from your post, the only thing stopping you from operating two frequencies more often is a roster problem – here we come back to the rumours from the bar which I will not bring up here – but surely this can be worked around? As you said you have a new system that may well solve the problem and we can hope to see an improvement sometime soon.
One final point, and please if the Moderators feel this to be ‘stepping over the line’ then please feel free to delete this paragraph:
Wizzybigpiggy, or whatever he was called, if he IS (as he claims to be) part of your operation, then he has single-handedly sullied the good name of Biggin ATC with his un-inarticulate arguments, cheap jibes and offensive tone and I pity the other, excellent controllers who would have to put up with his Neanderthal ways.
Best wishes,
BH
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TMC
I know that you are on the radio a fair bit, but presumably you spend a lot of time pushing paper around your office downstairs.
Would it not be possible for you to cover the doubtful periods sitting downstairs wrapped in red-tape, in a position to mount the wooden hill to the tower if your colleague on watch felt that things were getting a little 'interesting'.
Or is this too simple a perspective on the life of a SATCO
W
I know that you are on the radio a fair bit, but presumably you spend a lot of time pushing paper around your office downstairs.
Would it not be possible for you to cover the doubtful periods sitting downstairs wrapped in red-tape, in a position to mount the wooden hill to the tower if your colleague on watch felt that things were getting a little 'interesting'.
Or is this too simple a perspective on the life of a SATCO
W
Last edited by Timothy; 8th Jul 2003 at 22:13.
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Big Hilly
I apologise unreservedly if any remarks I made have been misconstrued. I was extremely angry yesterday at the apparent slur in your opening posting. Today however is another day. Believe it or not I do think you have a point but I do think you used a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Many apologies again . yours Neanderthal ( non taken)
I apologise unreservedly if any remarks I made have been misconstrued. I was extremely angry yesterday at the apparent slur in your opening posting. Today however is another day. Believe it or not I do think you have a point but I do think you used a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Many apologies again . yours Neanderthal ( non taken)