Aerobatics over Tempsford
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Aerobatics over Tempsford
I (and more often my wife) hears a plane's engine outside our house and then look out the window to see a plane throwing itself wildly around the sky. Has happened many times in the last few weeks.
To give an example.....
Tonight (2nd June): Hear plane, go outside to the car to grab a pair of binoculars to try and see what's making the noise. Turns out to be some Extra 300 or lookalike doing stall turns, spinning, looping, rolling etc.. As this is the third or so plane I have seen doing this recently I remark to my wife that the rolling looks a little untidy and perhaps he's not much of an expert, when the pilot enters a series of manouevres which I think the aerobatic fraternity call a lomcevak, whereby the plane seems to defy physics and do a level flight spin with the tail swiftly catching up with the nose and then the wing joining the race to see who could be the front of the plane. After perhaps three seconds or so the propellor wins and the plane carries on as though nothing untoward happened.
Not complaining, Love it actually. Just wondering who the pilots are and where they are flying from. Gransden?
Todays culprit was flying a white plane with a yellow underside to the wing. Previously I have seen a white plane with a red and white striped underside of wing.
Any answers?
DeepC
To give an example.....
Tonight (2nd June): Hear plane, go outside to the car to grab a pair of binoculars to try and see what's making the noise. Turns out to be some Extra 300 or lookalike doing stall turns, spinning, looping, rolling etc.. As this is the third or so plane I have seen doing this recently I remark to my wife that the rolling looks a little untidy and perhaps he's not much of an expert, when the pilot enters a series of manouevres which I think the aerobatic fraternity call a lomcevak, whereby the plane seems to defy physics and do a level flight spin with the tail swiftly catching up with the nose and then the wing joining the race to see who could be the front of the plane. After perhaps three seconds or so the propellor wins and the plane carries on as though nothing untoward happened.
Not complaining, Love it actually. Just wondering who the pilots are and where they are flying from. Gransden?
Todays culprit was flying a white plane with a yellow underside to the wing. Previously I have seen a white plane with a red and white striped underside of wing.
Any answers?
DeepC
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I have absolutely no idea. However:
I'm certainly not much of an expert - but I've done a lomcevak. Well, when I say I've done one, what I did was move the controls where my instructor told me to move them. Gyroscopic aerobatics is one thing I really don't understand at all, and I was really a passenger throughout the lomcevak even though I was at the controls. But it is entirely possible that this guy was a novice doing a lomcevak, just like I was.
FFF
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Perhaps he's not much of an expert, when the pilot enters a series of manouevres which I think the aerobatic fraternity call a lomcevak
FFF
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My guess would be Mark Jeffries out of Little Gransden. I think his aircraft is a self-built Laser. The other possibility is Denny Dobson who is based at Little Staughton. He flies an Extra but it was yellow and blue last time I saw it. Both guys are excellent show pilots but I guess they have to try things out in practice which is why it may look a bit rough.
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FFF
Sorry to disagree old chap, but when pilots get to the stages of buying kit like Extras and SU-26's they will have an idea what a lomcevak is. If it is M J's (in all probability) a lomcevak will be a warm up figure.
Damien
Marks Extra left it maintenance hangar the other week, for its new owner. (don’t know if it got to him)
Regards
Wide
Sorry to disagree old chap, but when pilots get to the stages of buying kit like Extras and SU-26's they will have an idea what a lomcevak is. If it is M J's (in all probability) a lomcevak will be a warm up figure.
Damien
Marks Extra left it maintenance hangar the other week, for its new owner. (don’t know if it got to him)
Regards
Wide
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Lomcevak
Ah - it means hangover in Czech, I believe!
I have done 3, all dual - one in the CAP10 and the others in an S2A and an S2B.
Know how to do it in my single seat Pitts, even know how to recover if it all goes pear-shaped but do not have large enough testicles to do it on my own!
This is the method in the S1S with a wooden prop. Metal prop start 5-10 mph slower!
Capture the vertical with power ON, as the speed bleeds away through 90mph - FULL right rudder and stick into the top left hand corner. After the horizon blurs a max of 3 times - power off and centralise controls, work out what the aeroplane is doing and fly away.
IF you were to hold the control input - you would expect the aeroplane to enter an inverted spin. With fullpower it would tend to flatten it and then you'd be in for a real ride! Opposite aileron (left) would be anti-spin and would tend to keep the nose high, too.
If it did "get away" from you then the Muller/Beggs recovery would work well - especially as you know which rudder to press to counter the yaw:
power to idle
let go of the stick
press left (in the above instance) rudder until the spin stops
recover
As an old friend reminds me - "The only hard thing about flying is the ground!" So I would want to try this in the firmament first.
Methinks that Ludwig has tried these?
Stik
I have done 3, all dual - one in the CAP10 and the others in an S2A and an S2B.
Know how to do it in my single seat Pitts, even know how to recover if it all goes pear-shaped but do not have large enough testicles to do it on my own!
This is the method in the S1S with a wooden prop. Metal prop start 5-10 mph slower!
Capture the vertical with power ON, as the speed bleeds away through 90mph - FULL right rudder and stick into the top left hand corner. After the horizon blurs a max of 3 times - power off and centralise controls, work out what the aeroplane is doing and fly away.
IF you were to hold the control input - you would expect the aeroplane to enter an inverted spin. With fullpower it would tend to flatten it and then you'd be in for a real ride! Opposite aileron (left) would be anti-spin and would tend to keep the nose high, too.
If it did "get away" from you then the Muller/Beggs recovery would work well - especially as you know which rudder to press to counter the yaw:
power to idle
let go of the stick
press left (in the above instance) rudder until the spin stops
recover
As an old friend reminds me - "The only hard thing about flying is the ground!" So I would want to try this in the firmament first.
Methinks that Ludwig has tried these?
Stik
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Stik old chap I would suggest that this sort of think is very much not the type of thing one should just "have a go" at as the exit can be very unpredictable - it is something for the experinced aeros flyer. Also metal props and gyroscopics are not a good combination, as it is relativley easy to snap the crank shaft - fine if you are hiring an a/c but not in your own, oh, and make sure you have enough forward stick travel so when the prop parts company with the a/c you can still land it.
DeepC, you say that the rolls etc were ragged, this leads one to think it was not Mark.
DeepC, you say that the rolls etc were ragged, this leads one to think it was not Mark.
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What a smashing manoeuvre! Wish I'd taken the opportunity to get a trip in with the FighterCombat guys when I had a chance - b#gger. Reads like an aerial cartwheel.
Don't see what combat use it has though - unless you're playing 'Asteroids' for real.
Don't see what combat use it has though - unless you're playing 'Asteroids' for real.
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Thanks for the replies so far. Still no positive ID though.
Regarding the ‘ragged’ rolling. You have to read my views with an eye on the fact that I am a Civil Engineer who has never sat in a plane (Easyjet and BA 737s and KLM Fokkers excepted).
The comment comes from the fact that as this is the third or fourth plane that I’ve seen over Tempsford I have started mentally awarding marks for artistic impression and technical merit. The dodgy rolling comment was due to the pilot not cleanly rolling about the longitudinal axis but around it. Not far enough around it to be impressive to my untrained eye. But saying that it could be a very difficult manoeuvre beautifully executed but eye wouldn’t know, as I’m not a pilot.
Keep the answers coming. I’ll try and grab my binoculars next time and read off a number to tackle the G-INFO CAA site with.
Thanks
DeepC
Regarding the ‘ragged’ rolling. You have to read my views with an eye on the fact that I am a Civil Engineer who has never sat in a plane (Easyjet and BA 737s and KLM Fokkers excepted).
The comment comes from the fact that as this is the third or fourth plane that I’ve seen over Tempsford I have started mentally awarding marks for artistic impression and technical merit. The dodgy rolling comment was due to the pilot not cleanly rolling about the longitudinal axis but around it. Not far enough around it to be impressive to my untrained eye. But saying that it could be a very difficult manoeuvre beautifully executed but eye wouldn’t know, as I’m not a pilot.
Keep the answers coming. I’ll try and grab my binoculars next time and read off a number to tackle the G-INFO CAA site with.
Thanks
DeepC
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Gyroscopic figures…
Sorry to say, but Stik old chap your wrong (dangerously!) about flattening an inverted spin!
Lycoming powered aircraft (we are talking about an Extra here.. I think?) will only inverted flat spin with ‘right’ rudder.. RIGHT aileron will flatten the spin inverted because roll and yaw are opposite inverted.. full power is then applied and the stick is brought back to accelerate and flatten the spin… actually in the Extra just using full power and right aileron alone does the trick handsomely!
Recovery is achieved quickly in the Extra by closing the throttle FULLY (removes gyroscopic effect… that’s what’s flattening the spin), FULL left rudder and FULL left aileron (inverted this is actually the in-spin aileron) and FULL aft stick..
Flat spins and any form of Lomcovak (and there are many forms of gyroscopic figure, for example the ‘Cravat’ ‘Ruade’ and the ‘Eventail’ to name but a few) are potentially very dangerous figures.. the outcome can be unpredictable… almost all involve significant height loss… With practice the exit from these figures can be made to look precise… as the figure depletes energy (in some figures the aircraft will start to ‘snap’ roll as the gyroscopic forces diminish) the exit can be flown to a ‘line’ or exit heading… a knowledge of flat spin recovery is essential! This can happen when things go wrong..
Gyroscopic manoeuvres should only be flown by advanced/unlimited aerobatic pilots who are extremely current… all these manoeuvres a flown using ‘negative’ g (quite high values sometimes) and they can be quite disorientating even to experienced unlimited level aerobatic pilots (there are only a hand full of pilots in the UK that fly to this level)… YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED…
It go’s without saying, these figures should only be flown in ‘unlimited’ aircraft types, like the Extra, Sukhoi, Yak 50 etc
Hope this helps…
Sorry to say, but Stik old chap your wrong (dangerously!) about flattening an inverted spin!
Lycoming powered aircraft (we are talking about an Extra here.. I think?) will only inverted flat spin with ‘right’ rudder.. RIGHT aileron will flatten the spin inverted because roll and yaw are opposite inverted.. full power is then applied and the stick is brought back to accelerate and flatten the spin… actually in the Extra just using full power and right aileron alone does the trick handsomely!
Recovery is achieved quickly in the Extra by closing the throttle FULLY (removes gyroscopic effect… that’s what’s flattening the spin), FULL left rudder and FULL left aileron (inverted this is actually the in-spin aileron) and FULL aft stick..
Flat spins and any form of Lomcovak (and there are many forms of gyroscopic figure, for example the ‘Cravat’ ‘Ruade’ and the ‘Eventail’ to name but a few) are potentially very dangerous figures.. the outcome can be unpredictable… almost all involve significant height loss… With practice the exit from these figures can be made to look precise… as the figure depletes energy (in some figures the aircraft will start to ‘snap’ roll as the gyroscopic forces diminish) the exit can be flown to a ‘line’ or exit heading… a knowledge of flat spin recovery is essential! This can happen when things go wrong..
Gyroscopic manoeuvres should only be flown by advanced/unlimited aerobatic pilots who are extremely current… all these manoeuvres a flown using ‘negative’ g (quite high values sometimes) and they can be quite disorientating even to experienced unlimited level aerobatic pilots (there are only a hand full of pilots in the UK that fly to this level)… YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED…
It go’s without saying, these figures should only be flown in ‘unlimited’ aircraft types, like the Extra, Sukhoi, Yak 50 etc
Hope this helps…
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Another fine display high over Tempsford Airfield yesterday evening. This time I got a fairly good view of the plane. Mainly white top sides with red markings on trailing edges and tail.
Underside is totally yellow.
Any ideas of the character keeping Tempsford amused?
DeepC
Underside is totally yellow.
Any ideas of the character keeping Tempsford amused?
DeepC
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Mr Russian,
Generalising a bit, but would you agree - if push came to shove - a beggs-muller recovery would work?
From my limited teaching (from very unlimited pilots), if you are *really* messed up: power off, hands off, see the ground then sort it.
Generalising a bit, but would you agree - if push came to shove - a beggs-muller recovery would work?
From my limited teaching (from very unlimited pilots), if you are *really* messed up: power off, hands off, see the ground then sort it.
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Yeap.. In every 'unlimited' aerobatic aircraft that I've flown the:
idle power, kick the heavy rudder, let go of the stick..
emergency procedure works just fine.. it just takes the aircraft longer to recover. Aeroplanes want to fly.. not spin!
This procedure is in the Extra 300's operating hand book under the heading.. 'should disorientation occur during spins' it says that it will ALWAYS work..
idle power, kick the heavy rudder, let go of the stick..
emergency procedure works just fine.. it just takes the aircraft longer to recover. Aeroplanes want to fly.. not spin!
This procedure is in the Extra 300's operating hand book under the heading.. 'should disorientation occur during spins' it says that it will ALWAYS work..
Last edited by The Mad Russian; 18th Jul 2003 at 01:05.