Lhr Svfr
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Lhr Svfr
Now I know this has come up before but I couldn't find it in search.
Anyway here's the scenario (Old mother (in law) Rimmer has been crunching on about being taken for a fly (the last time she was in a light a/c was with Alan Cobham in the 1930s would you believe!!).
So the plan is to return her home from her next visit in Mr Piper's 28th variety of gents aerial conveyance. So what we are talking about is Shoreham to Denham (OMIL Rimmer lives in Ricky so that's handy).
As for routing I've heard tell of an SVFR routing west of EGLL that cuts off quite a bit of distance. So the first question is has anybody done it (all advice greatfully received) and second, if not useing the the SVFR clearance what routing would be recommended - I'm thinking in terms DCT - WOD - Marlow - Beconsfield - DCT).
Anyway here's the scenario (Old mother (in law) Rimmer has been crunching on about being taken for a fly (the last time she was in a light a/c was with Alan Cobham in the 1930s would you believe!!).
So the plan is to return her home from her next visit in Mr Piper's 28th variety of gents aerial conveyance. So what we are talking about is Shoreham to Denham (OMIL Rimmer lives in Ricky so that's handy).
As for routing I've heard tell of an SVFR routing west of EGLL that cuts off quite a bit of distance. So the first question is has anybody done it (all advice greatfully received) and second, if not useing the the SVFR clearance what routing would be recommended - I'm thinking in terms DCT - WOD - Marlow - Beconsfield - DCT).
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Haven't got my charts to hand, so I can't give you a complete routing, but here's a couple of thoughts on the last part, which I know pretty well.
I did the SVFR route for the first time last weekend. I'd planned it several times, but I don't go in that direction very often, and every time I'd planned it the weather had different ideas until last weekend - but I did finally get around to it.
The Heathrow boys are very friendly, and more than happy to help you out. Give them a call on 119.9, but don't be surprised if the only reply you get is "Contact me on 132.7" which is the Thames frequency.
Once you get past that hurdle, request SVFR via Ascot. Expect to be cleared either not above 1000' or not above 1500'. Make sure you really do route via Ascot - on one leg last weekend I tried to fly a direct route, which took me about a mile abeam Ascot, and the controller was quick to point it out to me.
Make sure you speak to Denham and find out what their prefered arrival method is from this direction. I've done almost all my flying out of White Waltham, but suddenly realised, when about a mile from the edge of the ATZ, that I didn't have a clue how to join from this direction and at such low level without barging into the circuit!
Remember you need 10km viz for SVFR unless you have an IMC rating or IR.
If you decide not to go that way, or you can't get clearance, then you can stay in quite tight to the zone. There's a gap between Heathrow and Farnborough/Blackbushe that you can use. There are three danger areas in that gap, you can get a DAAIS from Farnborough, and you'll most likely find they're only active to 1400'. The TMA base is 2500', so that gives you plenty of room to squeeze through. After that, give White Waltham a call and transit their overhead. Overhead joins are at 1500' QNH, so you can easilly fly over the top of that without getting in anyone's way - but make sure you stay to the west of the field, or you'll be in the Heathrow zone. Continue north, and talk to Wycombe to get traffic information - tell them you're going to pass to the east of their zone, and fly through the gap between the ATZ and the Heathrow CTA. There are some good visual references for this gap, but don't rely on your GPS - mine has the size of the ATZ marked incorrectly. After that, simply turn right and fly DCT.
If that sounds too complicated, then routing to the west, through the Odiham MATZ, is the easiest option. Given that you'll want to be available to answer questions from mother-in-law Rimmer, you might be best routing this way and cutting down on the R/T - save the complicated routing for when you're solo, or you pax is a pilot or experienced pax who knows when to stop talking. Maybe you could try that on the way back, after dropping her off?
Have fun, whichever way you decide to go!
FFF
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I did the SVFR route for the first time last weekend. I'd planned it several times, but I don't go in that direction very often, and every time I'd planned it the weather had different ideas until last weekend - but I did finally get around to it.
The Heathrow boys are very friendly, and more than happy to help you out. Give them a call on 119.9, but don't be surprised if the only reply you get is "Contact me on 132.7" which is the Thames frequency.
Once you get past that hurdle, request SVFR via Ascot. Expect to be cleared either not above 1000' or not above 1500'. Make sure you really do route via Ascot - on one leg last weekend I tried to fly a direct route, which took me about a mile abeam Ascot, and the controller was quick to point it out to me.
Make sure you speak to Denham and find out what their prefered arrival method is from this direction. I've done almost all my flying out of White Waltham, but suddenly realised, when about a mile from the edge of the ATZ, that I didn't have a clue how to join from this direction and at such low level without barging into the circuit!
Remember you need 10km viz for SVFR unless you have an IMC rating or IR.
If you decide not to go that way, or you can't get clearance, then you can stay in quite tight to the zone. There's a gap between Heathrow and Farnborough/Blackbushe that you can use. There are three danger areas in that gap, you can get a DAAIS from Farnborough, and you'll most likely find they're only active to 1400'. The TMA base is 2500', so that gives you plenty of room to squeeze through. After that, give White Waltham a call and transit their overhead. Overhead joins are at 1500' QNH, so you can easilly fly over the top of that without getting in anyone's way - but make sure you stay to the west of the field, or you'll be in the Heathrow zone. Continue north, and talk to Wycombe to get traffic information - tell them you're going to pass to the east of their zone, and fly through the gap between the ATZ and the Heathrow CTA. There are some good visual references for this gap, but don't rely on your GPS - mine has the size of the ATZ marked incorrectly. After that, simply turn right and fly DCT.
If that sounds too complicated, then routing to the west, through the Odiham MATZ, is the easiest option. Given that you'll want to be available to answer questions from mother-in-law Rimmer, you might be best routing this way and cutting down on the R/T - save the complicated routing for when you're solo, or you pax is a pilot or experienced pax who knows when to stop talking. Maybe you could try that on the way back, after dropping her off?
Have fun, whichever way you decide to go!
FFF
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I actually did Denham-Shoreham a few weeks back, and it took me all of 35 minutes in the air (at 110 knots). I could have taken advantage of the helilanes but decided against it as I'd not flown them before with someone who had and it would have increased my workload to an unacceptable level.
I went north, round the top of the zone, south missing White Waltham's zone to the west, then over the top of Farnborough at 2400' to avoid their ATZ, then direct to the Steyning gap.
Dead easy, even with the high controller workload - a total of about 4 radio calls to Farnborough, and a lovely day to boot.
I went north, round the top of the zone, south missing White Waltham's zone to the west, then over the top of Farnborough at 2400' to avoid their ATZ, then direct to the Steyning gap.
Dead easy, even with the high controller workload - a total of about 4 radio calls to Farnborough, and a lovely day to boot.
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Might be worth giving London a ring and see if a more direct route from Ockenden is available, I was offered, and accepted, a routing which took me right over LHR , but that was many years ago.
If not, WOD BUR DEN at least avoids the choke corner near Booker. Its not 'views of London' but safer than hugging the Zone boundary.
If not, WOD BUR DEN at least avoids the choke corner near Booker. Its not 'views of London' but safer than hugging the Zone boundary.
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Quality stuff gang, many thanks ...methinks on reflection me an OMIL Rimmer will make like Buffalo gals and 'go round the outside' Still want to give the SVFR route a try one day - it sounds like fun but as FFF reckons this might not be the time to do it. 
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If you do go round the outside remember that there is a convenient VRP (Bagshot mast) on the corner of the Heathrow zone. If you route to the south and west of the mast you will be outside of the zone, and as long as you stay close you will be clear of the Farnborough and Blackbushe ATZs. As long as the viz is reasonable this is easy to do VFR. Stay clear of the danger areas mentioned by FFF though.
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Please don't phone us and ask to route over LHR!
It is not easy controlling when having a laughing fit.
The ASCOT BUR route MUST be flown not above 1000'. Please make sure you get your NAV right. As FFF says, you will get barked a if it goes wrong, and if you suddenly turn towards LHR and departures stop launching outbounds it will inevitably mean a lot of paperwork and a probable court appearance!
HOWEVER! - don't let that scare you. It is easy to fly - Ascot racecourse is very prominent with it's grandstands, and obviously BUR is a doddle! You might get BUR direct to Denham and derestricted up to 2000 feet - but don't forget that Denham may want you to enter via the correct lanes. If so - pleae turn away from LHR!!!
When coming from the south east I often offer via the Fairoaks overhead to Ascot level at 1500' and not above 1000' on crossing the M3. YOU WILL BE SENT TO FAIROAKS on 123.42 for YOU to request clearance through the ATZ. IF you don't get it, again, don't turn towards LHR in the zone!
How much time does it actually save though?? Is it really worth it as you can stay outside and be up at 2400 feet.
MY personal advice, is to do it for the first time from the north. It is much easier to find BUR than ASCOT if you are not familiar. You also need to avoid the danger areas at Bagshot and of course the Fairoaks ATZ.
It is not easy controlling when having a laughing fit.
The ASCOT BUR route MUST be flown not above 1000'. Please make sure you get your NAV right. As FFF says, you will get barked a if it goes wrong, and if you suddenly turn towards LHR and departures stop launching outbounds it will inevitably mean a lot of paperwork and a probable court appearance!
HOWEVER! - don't let that scare you. It is easy to fly - Ascot racecourse is very prominent with it's grandstands, and obviously BUR is a doddle! You might get BUR direct to Denham and derestricted up to 2000 feet - but don't forget that Denham may want you to enter via the correct lanes. If so - pleae turn away from LHR!!!
When coming from the south east I often offer via the Fairoaks overhead to Ascot level at 1500' and not above 1000' on crossing the M3. YOU WILL BE SENT TO FAIROAKS on 123.42 for YOU to request clearance through the ATZ. IF you don't get it, again, don't turn towards LHR in the zone!
How much time does it actually save though?? Is it really worth it as you can stay outside and be up at 2400 feet.
MY personal advice, is to do it for the first time from the north. It is much easier to find BUR than ASCOT if you are not familiar. You also need to avoid the danger areas at Bagshot and of course the Fairoaks ATZ.
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I have flown this route many, many times in the Aztec (in the days when I was at Fairoaks) and know it like the back of my hand.
As AlanM (no relation to the Fairoaks AlanM, I trust?) says, it is important to understand the clearance and follow it. He says that BUR is easier to find than Ascot and if you have ADF or GPS this is true. However, I don't believe that either bit of kit is a requirement for SVFR, so I will describe BUR for the VFR pilot.
As you leave Ascot the track is (near as dammit) due North. The distance is very short, so provided you make a sensible correction for wind there should be no problem getting very close to BUR. You are low, so picking out landmarks can be a bit dodgy (especially as this area is a wasteland of big houses with swimming pools) but you should be able to see Windsor Castle to your NE. Stay well the the West of that, and you will see two towns (Slough and Maidenhead). Aim to keep them either side of the nose, aiming for the gap between them. BUR itself is right next to a supermarket in among some rivers and ponds.
It may also be useful to know that Ascot stands out as a large low white rectangle, easily visible from the Fairoaks overhead.
On the subject of the BUR Ascot corridor, if you are using it to go South from the Midlands you may well be given a clearance to enter the zone not above 1500', to be below 1000' at BUR. You have to very careful not to get too low coming over the Chilterns, I would suggest not descending below 2000' until abeam High Wycombe/Amersham, then descending quite sharply (in a fast aircraft) to 1500' before the motorway then continue the descent to 1000'.
The SVFR controllers are much happier to give you a climb going North (often to 2400' as you pass BUR), so terrain clearance isn't usually as much of an issue in that direction, but if they give you 1500' to the zone boundary, be ready to climb as soon as you see the motorway. Also, don't blunder through the Booker ATZ.
May I make a plea for everyone's sake? The Thames/SVFR guys are a great bunch, and they make Ascot-BUR as available as they can, but they are increasing their already considerable workload, because they have to watch us like hawks as we go under the jumbos, to check both our position and altitude.
Nice as these chaps and chappesses are, I am quite sure that if enough plonkers who cannot hold heading or height use the route, they will have to reduce its availability. So Please only use it if you know what you are doing...for all our sakes!
W
As AlanM (no relation to the Fairoaks AlanM, I trust?) says, it is important to understand the clearance and follow it. He says that BUR is easier to find than Ascot and if you have ADF or GPS this is true. However, I don't believe that either bit of kit is a requirement for SVFR, so I will describe BUR for the VFR pilot.
As you leave Ascot the track is (near as dammit) due North. The distance is very short, so provided you make a sensible correction for wind there should be no problem getting very close to BUR. You are low, so picking out landmarks can be a bit dodgy (especially as this area is a wasteland of big houses with swimming pools) but you should be able to see Windsor Castle to your NE. Stay well the the West of that, and you will see two towns (Slough and Maidenhead). Aim to keep them either side of the nose, aiming for the gap between them. BUR itself is right next to a supermarket in among some rivers and ponds.
It may also be useful to know that Ascot stands out as a large low white rectangle, easily visible from the Fairoaks overhead.
On the subject of the BUR Ascot corridor, if you are using it to go South from the Midlands you may well be given a clearance to enter the zone not above 1500', to be below 1000' at BUR. You have to very careful not to get too low coming over the Chilterns, I would suggest not descending below 2000' until abeam High Wycombe/Amersham, then descending quite sharply (in a fast aircraft) to 1500' before the motorway then continue the descent to 1000'.
The SVFR controllers are much happier to give you a climb going North (often to 2400' as you pass BUR), so terrain clearance isn't usually as much of an issue in that direction, but if they give you 1500' to the zone boundary, be ready to climb as soon as you see the motorway. Also, don't blunder through the Booker ATZ.
May I make a plea for everyone's sake? The Thames/SVFR guys are a great bunch, and they make Ascot-BUR as available as they can, but they are increasing their already considerable workload, because they have to watch us like hawks as we go under the jumbos, to check both our position and altitude.
Nice as these chaps and chappesses are, I am quite sure that if enough plonkers who cannot hold heading or height use the route, they will have to reduce its availability. So Please only use it if you know what you are doing...for all our sakes!
W
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WC.....
if I owned helicopters I wouldn't be getting up at 0530 tomorrow morning for work!
Wise words mate. The prob with the route is in hot weather and light or an Easterly wind. This means that traffic gong North off Heathrow when on Westerlies (Clacton, Wobun etc) should cross BUR at 3000'+
Unfortunately, a heavily laden A340 or 747 often doesn't quite make it! (they should inform us before they depart if they cannot make 243ft/nm!)
Oddly enough, only yesterday I had a helicopter (a very competent regular) at BUR indicating 1200'. He was reporting 1000' so legally the Mode C is within limits. However, TCAS works off that Mode C and the ANZ1 to LAX got airborne, a hottish day and little wind, and he was just 3 miles East of BUR at 2000 climbing very slowly. That is why we get excited about you if you are East of the track.
We have had TCAS climbs on these aircraft - which cannot be much fun when you are climbing as fast as you can!!
if I owned helicopters I wouldn't be getting up at 0530 tomorrow morning for work!
Wise words mate. The prob with the route is in hot weather and light or an Easterly wind. This means that traffic gong North off Heathrow when on Westerlies (Clacton, Wobun etc) should cross BUR at 3000'+
Unfortunately, a heavily laden A340 or 747 often doesn't quite make it! (they should inform us before they depart if they cannot make 243ft/nm!)
Oddly enough, only yesterday I had a helicopter (a very competent regular) at BUR indicating 1200'. He was reporting 1000' so legally the Mode C is within limits. However, TCAS works off that Mode C and the ANZ1 to LAX got airborne, a hottish day and little wind, and he was just 3 miles East of BUR at 2000 climbing very slowly. That is why we get excited about you if you are East of the track.
We have had TCAS climbs on these aircraft - which cannot be much fun when you are climbing as fast as you can!!
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Ace,
I've done the SVFR twice, once SE-NW routing Brooklands (nice prominent landmark) - Thorpe interchange M3-M25 (another prominent landmark with Thorpe park easy to spot at 900 feet!) to Ascot racecourse to White Waltham. Following the M25 from Brooklands to Thorpe keeps you clear of Fairoaks ATZ, BTW.
The second time was from Fairoaks, again Thorpe - Ascot and on to Burnham and exit at Beaconsfield. After passing Burnham I was cleared to 1500.
I've not tried from North to South - WCollins makes a good point about the altitude.
Watch your heading and altitude, and give some thought as to what you would do at low level if the donk qui
I've done the SVFR twice, once SE-NW routing Brooklands (nice prominent landmark) - Thorpe interchange M3-M25 (another prominent landmark with Thorpe park easy to spot at 900 feet!) to Ascot racecourse to White Waltham. Following the M25 from Brooklands to Thorpe keeps you clear of Fairoaks ATZ, BTW.
The second time was from Fairoaks, again Thorpe - Ascot and on to Burnham and exit at Beaconsfield. After passing Burnham I was cleared to 1500.
I've not tried from North to South - WCollins makes a good point about the altitude.
Watch your heading and altitude, and give some thought as to what you would do at low level if the donk qui
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(they should inform us before they depart if they cannot make 243ft/nm!)
W
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Eeek!
Wonder if that guy got a TCAS climb too!!!
Thorpe is OK - but you will probably get not above 800' - depending on LHR runway config and the wind.
Not so bad if Departing 27R with a 30 knot Westerly wind! Given that the ground is up to 150-200 ft there it must be a bit hairy! Also absolutely NO room for error IF you go wrong!!!!!!!
(I am thinking paperwork in my break again....!!)
Cheers
WC - which a/c do you fly out of BIG?
Wonder if that guy got a TCAS climb too!!!
Thorpe is OK - but you will probably get not above 800' - depending on LHR runway config and the wind.
Not so bad if Departing 27R with a 30 knot Westerly wind! Given that the ground is up to 150-200 ft there it must be a bit hairy! Also absolutely NO room for error IF you go wrong!!!!!!!
(I am thinking paperwork in my break again....!!)
Cheers
WC - which a/c do you fly out of BIG?
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Yep, the more I read the more convinced I am that it's going to be better going round the outside to the west.
In fact, using an old half mil we've got kicking around at Rimmer News it seems that the distance saved is only gonna be in the order of a few minutes (allowing for variation's in the Rimmerian thumb and routing) compared with the stress/ hassle factor for all concerned the answer appears clear well as clear as anything ever does to me
In fact, using an old half mil we've got kicking around at Rimmer News it seems that the distance saved is only gonna be in the order of a few minutes (allowing for variation's in the Rimmerian thumb and routing) compared with the stress/ hassle factor for all concerned the answer appears clear well as clear as anything ever does to me
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Ace don't be put off - even if it doesn't save you oodles of time you have to do the SVFR route a few times just for the fun of it - average time saving* Blackbushe to Elstree in an AA5 is about 6 minutes, but since the Elstree "circuit" is now a QXC the actual time saving is neglible (*compared to going around to the west of Booker etc)
(*compared to going around to the west of Booker etc)
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Slightly off topic:
Isn't one of the things that you do when you lose a donk on a 747 is put TCAS to TA only to prevent an unachievable RA to distract you at a crucial time?
I seem to remember a TWD story in 'Flyer' about this ages ago.
Isn't one of the things that you do when you lose a donk on a 747 is put TCAS to TA only to prevent an unachievable RA to distract you at a crucial time?
I seem to remember a TWD story in 'Flyer' about this ages ago.
My quarter-mill of the area shows no need to go west of Booker - from just west of WW, over the top of Marlow, then more or less due east to join Denham's circuit.
Why not plan both routes - if SVFR is turned down then the other option is already in the head ?
Why not plan both routes - if SVFR is turned down then the other option is already in the head ?
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Ace,
If you're going round to the west you don't have to avoid Booker, they regularly allow people to transit through the overhead, just give them a call (Tower 126.55) as you pass Reading. Which ever route you take you've got to keep your eyes open for the gliders. If we're operating off 06/24 then the gliders will be operating on the south side of the field, and on the west side of the field if we're using 17/35.
Brooklands
If you're going round to the west you don't have to avoid Booker, they regularly allow people to transit through the overhead, just give them a call (Tower 126.55) as you pass Reading. Which ever route you take you've got to keep your eyes open for the gliders. If we're operating off 06/24 then the gliders will be operating on the south side of the field, and on the west side of the field if we're using 17/35.
Brooklands
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I flew the Ascot to BUR SVFR route today for the first time, heading up from MID to Denham.
As several people said above, it is very straightforward; much more so than threading one's way up past Farnborough, Blackbushe, White Waltham, Booker etc.
It was a bit of a change of scenery, a nice view of the Heathrow runways and Windsor Castle and the quietest frequency (125.62 at the moment) in west London!
Must try it more often.
As several people said above, it is very straightforward; much more so than threading one's way up past Farnborough, Blackbushe, White Waltham, Booker etc.
It was a bit of a change of scenery, a nice view of the Heathrow runways and Windsor Castle and the quietest frequency (125.62 at the moment) in west London!
Must try it more often.