Flying together - do we criticise too much?
The Original Whirly
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Flying together - do we criticise too much?
Two separate conversations with PPRuNers at the recent fly-in got me thinking. Both said they would be nervous about flying with other pilots because they didn't feel they were very good and they felt they'd be criticised...or words to that effect.
Now, as someone who learned a lot - and still does - from flying with other people, this worries me. Soon after I got my PPL I swanned around the country on a regular basis with a another new PPL; we both made loads of mistakes, but we had twice the fun and learned twice as much for half the cost. And sure, I felt he was hypercritical, but I put up with it or gave as good as I got("if you don't tell anyone I identified the wrong airfield, I won't tell anyone you tried to land on the wrong runway!"). Since then I've flown with quite a lot of other people, and I'd thoroughly recommend it.
But now I think about it, perhaps we, as pilots, do as a group tend to be too ready to criticise each other. Look at some of the recent threads. A genuine mistake, and half the world is screaming; "Bad Airmanship!" OK, I exaggerate a little, but you get my point. And I remember feeling as though everyone must be better than I was; I sometimes still feel that way. Are we perhaps criticising in order to cover up our own feelings of inadequacy about our flying, which we don't need to have anyway? We all want to improve, we all aim to do our best, and that is good. And flying is potentially dangerous, and has to be taken seriously. But have we - or some of us anyway - lost the fun somewhere in all of this, and stopped making allowances for people being inexperienced, less than perfect, merely human?
Now I come to think about it, the least critical, most fun pilots to fly with have been those with the most experience. Is it the nearly newbies, perchance...
Now, as someone who learned a lot - and still does - from flying with other people, this worries me. Soon after I got my PPL I swanned around the country on a regular basis with a another new PPL; we both made loads of mistakes, but we had twice the fun and learned twice as much for half the cost. And sure, I felt he was hypercritical, but I put up with it or gave as good as I got("if you don't tell anyone I identified the wrong airfield, I won't tell anyone you tried to land on the wrong runway!"). Since then I've flown with quite a lot of other people, and I'd thoroughly recommend it.
But now I think about it, perhaps we, as pilots, do as a group tend to be too ready to criticise each other. Look at some of the recent threads. A genuine mistake, and half the world is screaming; "Bad Airmanship!" OK, I exaggerate a little, but you get my point. And I remember feeling as though everyone must be better than I was; I sometimes still feel that way. Are we perhaps criticising in order to cover up our own feelings of inadequacy about our flying, which we don't need to have anyway? We all want to improve, we all aim to do our best, and that is good. And flying is potentially dangerous, and has to be taken seriously. But have we - or some of us anyway - lost the fun somewhere in all of this, and stopped making allowances for people being inexperienced, less than perfect, merely human?
Now I come to think about it, the least critical, most fun pilots to fly with have been those with the most experience. Is it the nearly newbies, perchance...
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Personally, I love flying with other pilots.
Having someone sat next to you to map-read gives you more time to enjoy the view, or vice versa if I'm doing the map-reading. I love trying out other peoples' aircraft, and I love giving people a chance to try out my aircraft. Looking out for traffic is much easier if there are two of you. And if you become slightly unsure of your position it's nice to have someone confirm that they also think you are where you think you are.
It's also rare that I fly with other people and don't learn something. Sometimes it's a new aircraft that I get to learn about. Sometimes I learn more about my own aircraft. Sometimes it's just a case of a bit of a technique problem. I once flew with another member of my Europa group as a passenger. My landings over the last few weeks had been even less consistent than normal, and my passenger happened to remark that he usually spent longer rounding out than me. My landing problems were solved. (Ok, not permanently solved, but I did a few pretty good landings, by holding off for longer, before they deteriorated to their usual bouncy style again!)
Then there's that infernal GPS, which I hate. It's far too complicated to use properly, you can spend longer setting it up for a flight than the length of the flight itself. But take with a passenger, and you can play with it as your passenger flies - or vice versa if he's familiar with the GPS unit. Suddenly that over-complex box of unnecessary gadgets starts to become more appealing (to me, anyway - I know other pilots would never dream of flying without programming their GPS first, but we're all different).
The list of benefits goes on - but I only have a limited amount of time, so I'll have to stop there. I hope that other pilots who I've flown with have enjoyed, and benefited from, flying with me as much as I have with them.
FFF
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Having someone sat next to you to map-read gives you more time to enjoy the view, or vice versa if I'm doing the map-reading. I love trying out other peoples' aircraft, and I love giving people a chance to try out my aircraft. Looking out for traffic is much easier if there are two of you. And if you become slightly unsure of your position it's nice to have someone confirm that they also think you are where you think you are.
It's also rare that I fly with other people and don't learn something. Sometimes it's a new aircraft that I get to learn about. Sometimes I learn more about my own aircraft. Sometimes it's just a case of a bit of a technique problem. I once flew with another member of my Europa group as a passenger. My landings over the last few weeks had been even less consistent than normal, and my passenger happened to remark that he usually spent longer rounding out than me. My landing problems were solved. (Ok, not permanently solved, but I did a few pretty good landings, by holding off for longer, before they deteriorated to their usual bouncy style again!)
Then there's that infernal GPS, which I hate. It's far too complicated to use properly, you can spend longer setting it up for a flight than the length of the flight itself. But take with a passenger, and you can play with it as your passenger flies - or vice versa if he's familiar with the GPS unit. Suddenly that over-complex box of unnecessary gadgets starts to become more appealing (to me, anyway - I know other pilots would never dream of flying without programming their GPS first, but we're all different).
The list of benefits goes on - but I only have a limited amount of time, so I'll have to stop there. I hope that other pilots who I've flown with have enjoyed, and benefited from, flying with me as much as I have with them.
FFF
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Definitely agree flying with other pilots has lots of benefits.
My main difficulty is that since becoming an instructor, if I ever fly with anyone just for fun without my instructor's hat on the relationship becomes much more difficult. The other guy is probably more stressed about making mistakes because he knows he's got an instructor sitting next to him, and I'm trying not to be instructory and make suggestions or point out mistakes.
Most disturbing example was flying with someone last year, 4-up in a PA28. I tried to make it clear to the guy that he was P1, then he went and took off without any vital actions! I decided to shut up but just make sure everything was checked myself, then dealt with it on the ground at the other end.
My main difficulty is that since becoming an instructor, if I ever fly with anyone just for fun without my instructor's hat on the relationship becomes much more difficult. The other guy is probably more stressed about making mistakes because he knows he's got an instructor sitting next to him, and I'm trying not to be instructory and make suggestions or point out mistakes.
Most disturbing example was flying with someone last year, 4-up in a PA28. I tried to make it clear to the guy that he was P1, then he went and took off without any vital actions! I decided to shut up but just make sure everything was checked myself, then dealt with it on the ground at the other end.
Criticism is rarely unhelpful, and rarely malicious.
The main thing is that it needs to be polite and constructive (and if a serious cock-up was made, private), so long as pilots flying with other pilots bear that in mind, I don't think it should ever be a problem.
Personally I like to beat the rush and point out my own mistakes before anybody else gets the chance. That said I usually make enough that nobody feels left out.
G
The main thing is that it needs to be polite and constructive (and if a serious cock-up was made, private), so long as pilots flying with other pilots bear that in mind, I don't think it should ever be a problem.
Personally I like to beat the rush and point out my own mistakes before anybody else gets the chance. That said I usually make enough that nobody feels left out.
G
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I always enjoy flying with other pilots, if I'm P1 or not. I always learn something, and it's no bad thing to see that other people do dumb things too sometimes 
Plus it helps to have a navigator when you find yourself somewhere unexpected, eh Speedbird252...
as for
it makes me think back to Sywell. FFF gave me control and then 'failed' the engine on me... really enjoyed that 
but at least he didn't criticise my rubbish PFL
Plus it helps to have a navigator when you find yourself somewhere unexpected, eh Speedbird252...as for
I hope that other pilots who I've flown with have enjoyed, and benefited from, flying with me as much as I have with them.
but at least he didn't criticise my rubbish PFL
Last edited by Evo; 13th Jun 2003 at 17:15.
Whirl and I talked about this on the way back from Sherburn and we were both mildly surprised about somebody being apprehensive about flying with other pilots. I can understand their sense of unease but as experience builds it isn't only a case of learning more yourself, it's also a case of learning that a lot of other people out there make similar mistakes.
As with any walk of life, only an idiot would pillory a fellow for making minor errors when they are very likely to make them themselves
I always try to learn from my mistakes, not always successfully, and I like to think that I can take constructive criticism in the manner in which it is intended. I'm sure there are people out there who would disagree with me but I do try , honest
Also, having skin like a rhino probably helps as well
As with any walk of life, only an idiot would pillory a fellow for making minor errors when they are very likely to make them themselves
I always try to learn from my mistakes, not always successfully, and I like to think that I can take constructive criticism in the manner in which it is intended. I'm sure there are people out there who would disagree with me but I do try , honest
Also, having skin like a rhino probably helps as well
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I think part of the problem (and it explains Whirly's point about experienced pilots being more amenable) is that learning to fly is - for most people - very much a solitary experience. Possibly that's part of the attraction of the whole thing, especially for Briggs-Myers INTP's like myself
As we've often discussed on this forum, most flyng 'clubs' do a p*ss-poor job of fostering a real club atmosphere/ethos.
Anyone who read my thread the other week about how it all seems worthwhile after all, will know that I've done a lot of what Mr Everett refers to as 'mutual flying' since qualifying. Actually sharing the workload, rather than just 'back seat driving', this pretty much eliminates the scope for sour criticism. Having said that, I've learnt a lot from the people I've flown with, and some of it consists of 'things I would never do myself', but there's no problem with that; I regard it as lucky that I've had the chance to learn from the actions of others.
But sometimes I 'just want to be alone' up there - either way we win - as longs as we remember to keep learning.
Anyway Whirly - I seem to remember you being a little uncomplimentary about some others' flying on Saturday
As we've often discussed on this forum, most flyng 'clubs' do a p*ss-poor job of fostering a real club atmosphere/ethos.Anyone who read my thread the other week about how it all seems worthwhile after all, will know that I've done a lot of what Mr Everett refers to as 'mutual flying' since qualifying. Actually sharing the workload, rather than just 'back seat driving', this pretty much eliminates the scope for sour criticism. Having said that, I've learnt a lot from the people I've flown with, and some of it consists of 'things I would never do myself', but there's no problem with that; I regard it as lucky that I've had the chance to learn from the actions of others.
But sometimes I 'just want to be alone' up there - either way we win - as longs as we remember to keep learning.
Anyway Whirly - I seem to remember you being a little uncomplimentary about some others' flying on Saturday
The Original Whirly
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Boke,
So, I'm the pot calling the kettle black, am I? Perfectly possible, though I think I was joking, if I'm remembering the conversation correctly. But since you didn't know I was joking, I guess that just shows how easily such things can be misunderstood. Oh well. Maybe it's just that aircraft can sometimes be easier to deal with and more predictable than people.
So, I'm the pot calling the kettle black, am I?
Perfectly possible, though I think I was joking, if I'm remembering the conversation correctly. But since you didn't know I was joking, I guess that just shows how easily such things can be misunderstood. Oh well. Maybe it's just that aircraft can sometimes be easier to deal with and more predictable than people.
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I think Whirlybird has made a very valid point - I think we do tend to be overcritical. In flying there is often seen as being only one correct way to do things; to talk on the radio, to join overhead, to lean engines etc. This is certainly picked up by student pilots, hence the angst when faced with flying with a strange instructor (we all know that they will have their own 'correct' method of doing certain things).
And perhaps in Aviation there really are more absolutes than in other spheres of activity, so there is more opportunity to make mistakes because there are less grey areas.
And perhaps mixing with professional pilots and ATCers via PPruNe is not such a good idea either - the other people in the air and supporting us on the ground are such professionals that some people could feel very unworthy and therefore be very sensitive to criticisms as well.
I think it comes down to personality and maturity.
If you understand that you are not perfect, but if you accept this and manage your flying with this in mind, I think you will continue to learn from flying AND you will not mind flying with other pilots.
If on the other hand, you expect to be perfect and cannot function if you cannot maintain this fantasy in your mind, then flying will always be a nerve-wracking, and ultimately unfulfilling, activity.
that they will have their own 'correct' method of doing certain things). And perhaps in Aviation there really are more absolutes than in other spheres of activity, so there is more opportunity to make mistakes because there are less grey areas.
And perhaps mixing with professional pilots and ATCers via PPruNe is not such a good idea either - the other people in the air and supporting us on the ground are such professionals that some people could feel very unworthy and therefore be very sensitive to criticisms as well.
I think it comes down to personality and maturity.
If you understand that you are not perfect, but if you accept this and manage your flying with this in mind, I think you will continue to learn from flying AND you will not mind flying with other pilots.
If on the other hand, you expect to be perfect and cannot function if you cannot maintain this fantasy in your mind, then flying will always be a nerve-wracking, and ultimately unfulfilling, activity.
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When I first got my PPL, I was nervous about flying with other people as I thought they would be critical of my pathetic attempts! Other pilots always seem to know everything, and seem very confident.
Having got a bit more experience I've realised that my flying is not really any worse than other people's. Everyone makes the odd mistake from time to time, and having someone in the right hand seat say 'Are you sure that's the runway you want?' rather than ATC can be very useful!!
At the end of the day I think it depends on the personalities of the people involved. I've met a few people I wouldn't want to fly with, but then I wouldn't want to sit in a pub having a few beers with them either.
Another pilot to share the workload, lookout, set radio frequencies and just be there to discuss things with is great, and I heartily recommend it.
Having got a bit more experience I've realised that my flying is not really any worse than other people's. Everyone makes the odd mistake from time to time, and having someone in the right hand seat say 'Are you sure that's the runway you want?' rather than ATC can be very useful!!
At the end of the day I think it depends on the personalities of the people involved. I've met a few people I wouldn't want to fly with, but then I wouldn't want to sit in a pub having a few beers with them either.
Another pilot to share the workload, lookout, set radio frequencies and just be there to discuss things with is great, and I heartily recommend it.
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Flying together is good fun and you can learn an awful lot even from just sitting in the RHS.
However over the years I have become a lot more critical about who I am happy to fly with, more in particular as a mere passenger in the back seat.
I was always under the impression that everyone approached flying with the same respect and professionalism that I try to give it (no claims to being perfect here but try to make the effort!)
After being exposed on a few occasions to flying which made me very unhappy as I felt endangered I took the decision not to fly as a back seat passenger with people unless I know them very well and they were suitably trained and qualified. (Some may say overkill but I have 4,5 kids to look after so I like to do the honourable thing myself if I feel they need to go and live on the life insurance proceeds)
Happy to fly with most people irrespective of experience as long as I think that they are reasonable folks and I can get my sticky's on a set of controls.
If you fly a lot with other people it will pay off to read up on accident reports and distill from these the chain of events which quite often leads to incidents/accidents. For example 2 IMC rated peeps going off and flying into weather not suitable for their experience, where either would have long returned if they would have been alone.
Vis-a-vis criticism it has to be said that all comments need to be made in a constructive manner. Very easy for more experienced folk to humiliate the less experienced flyer but would have thought that none of us would do that.
Of course as recipient you have to appreciate that there are very few flights that go so well that nothing can be learned. In the day job we are practitioners and sometimes someone 'really funny' asks when I will start working for real rather than practising. My standard answer is that on the day that I think I know it all I will retire.
And as far as the forum goes and people being too stern; it is nice if people can be authoritive on the subjects that are discussed. After all a lot of the posers of questions are after information. You will notice that most 'snotty knowitall replies' are from half baked folk. Those in the know have no need to be beligerant.
My HO of course.
FD
However over the years I have become a lot more critical about who I am happy to fly with, more in particular as a mere passenger in the back seat.
I was always under the impression that everyone approached flying with the same respect and professionalism that I try to give it (no claims to being perfect here but try to make the effort!)
After being exposed on a few occasions to flying which made me very unhappy as I felt endangered I took the decision not to fly as a back seat passenger with people unless I know them very well and they were suitably trained and qualified. (Some may say overkill but I have 4,5 kids to look after so I like to do the honourable thing myself if I feel they need to go and live on the life insurance proceeds)
Happy to fly with most people irrespective of experience as long as I think that they are reasonable folks and I can get my sticky's on a set of controls.
If you fly a lot with other people it will pay off to read up on accident reports and distill from these the chain of events which quite often leads to incidents/accidents. For example 2 IMC rated peeps going off and flying into weather not suitable for their experience, where either would have long returned if they would have been alone.
Vis-a-vis criticism it has to be said that all comments need to be made in a constructive manner. Very easy for more experienced folk to humiliate the less experienced flyer but would have thought that none of us would do that.
Of course as recipient you have to appreciate that there are very few flights that go so well that nothing can be learned. In the day job we are practitioners and sometimes someone 'really funny' asks when I will start working for real rather than practising. My standard answer is that on the day that I think I know it all I will retire.
And as far as the forum goes and people being too stern; it is nice if people can be authoritive on the subjects that are discussed. After all a lot of the posers of questions are after information. You will notice that most 'snotty knowitall replies' are from half baked folk. Those in the know have no need to be beligerant.
My HO of course.
FD
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Definitely felt, as a PPL holder of a grand 2 months standing, and NPPL holder of 6 months) that I would prefer to make my initial and spectacular mistakes in as much privacy as possible!
Reading threads on here from vastly experienced people made that feeling stronger.
However, having met some of you, and realized that not all dragons are Ppruners, or is that the other way about ???..., I feel that I'm ready now to make my mistakes whether witnessed by others or not. I.e. that face to face meeting, briefly, at a fly-in is very confidence-building.
I'm now eager to share flying, to learn from others, mostly, but also to get the criticism which comes from an immediate reaction to something - rather than a reaction when the story is retailed some while after.
Reading threads on here from vastly experienced people made that feeling stronger.
However, having met some of you, and realized that not all dragons are Ppruners, or is that the other way about ???..., I feel that I'm ready now to make my mistakes whether witnessed by others or not. I.e. that face to face meeting, briefly, at a fly-in is very confidence-building.
I'm now eager to share flying, to learn from others, mostly, but also to get the criticism which comes from an immediate reaction to something - rather than a reaction when the story is retailed some while after.
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Now I have my own licence I prefer to fly with other people both pilots and non pilots, I still think that I am my worst critic and what I think is a bad landing others consider acceptable. I do feel that you learn alot by flying with others even if its what not to do.
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I think the most important thing a flying school ("flying club") could do is to allow PPL STUDENTS to fly with non-instructor pilots.
The student obviously can't log it, and most may not want to pay anything significant, but they will benefit from seeing that real flying is fun and not hard work, circuits, more circuits...
The student obviously can't log it, and most may not want to pay anything significant, but they will benefit from seeing that real flying is fun and not hard work, circuits, more circuits...
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IO
Could not agree more! All exposure is good providing the person that takes these inexperienced folk up is safe and sound.
I have said on this forum before that it would be great to take students on longer trips whereby 2 peeps and one instructor would go out for the day and do a longer flight, to some different fields etc.
Takes effort as things need some planning, but that way you train people for what they want to do with their ticket.
Alas we are just two lonely voices in a vast ocean it seems.
FD
Could not agree more! All exposure is good providing the person that takes these inexperienced folk up is safe and sound.
I have said on this forum before that it would be great to take students on longer trips whereby 2 peeps and one instructor would go out for the day and do a longer flight, to some different fields etc.
Takes effort as things need some planning, but that way you train people for what they want to do with their ticket.
Alas we are just two lonely voices in a vast ocean it seems.
FD
Flying as a passenger rarely, if ever, worries me. I spent enough time as an instructor to get used to others flying differently to how I might.
If another pilot is a passenger then it provides just a little more impetus for me to strive to do even better than the standard I usually set for myself.
If another pilot is a passenger then it provides just a little more impetus for me to strive to do even better than the standard I usually set for myself.
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Flyin'Dutch'
I think a part of the problem with longer trips is that most schools want to make money out of everything possible, and long trips work out very expensive on the self fly hire + instructor rate, so the plane tends to get loaded with people who will rotate so they fly 1 leg each.
I often found, for example, that club fly-outs tend to be carefully organised so as to maximise the revenue on both the plane and the instructor. Sadly, most schools are skint and a lot of them don't like a student going up with a PPL, on the (unspoken) grounds that the often-hard-up student should be spending every penny with the school and not contributing to someone else. Even if the said PPL is self fly hiring from the same school..
Anyone who does not believe what I say should buy into a syndicate, or buy his own, and then try inviting PPL student friends to fly with him... see what happens
I think a part of the problem with longer trips is that most schools want to make money out of everything possible, and long trips work out very expensive on the self fly hire + instructor rate, so the plane tends to get loaded with people who will rotate so they fly 1 leg each.
I often found, for example, that club fly-outs tend to be carefully organised so as to maximise the revenue on both the plane and the instructor. Sadly, most schools are skint and a lot of them don't like a student going up with a PPL, on the (unspoken) grounds that the often-hard-up student should be spending every penny with the school and not contributing to someone else. Even if the said PPL is self fly hiring from the same school..
Anyone who does not believe what I say should buy into a syndicate, or buy his own, and then try inviting PPL student friends to fly with him... see what happens
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IO
I think you may well be right.
Unfortunately this is not in the long term best interest for GA. People who have been flying together from an early age will continue doing so after they have got their PPL. PPL who fly together and learn and stimulate each other are likely to do more than just the £100 hamburger run.
I can see that it is 'less attractive' in the short run for schools to promote this as it would mean that machines are longer from base.
A shame really.
As you say, if you want to get going you will need to get into a syndicate or buy something as the freedom you get from this is so liberating and will open skies previously unventured by most clubpilots and hirers.
FD
PS: There are schools and clubs out there which genuinely stimulate longer trips and flying together. Some of this also depends on the GA community they serve.
I think you may well be right.
Unfortunately this is not in the long term best interest for GA. People who have been flying together from an early age will continue doing so after they have got their PPL. PPL who fly together and learn and stimulate each other are likely to do more than just the £100 hamburger run.
I can see that it is 'less attractive' in the short run for schools to promote this as it would mean that machines are longer from base.
A shame really.
As you say, if you want to get going you will need to get into a syndicate or buy something as the freedom you get from this is so liberating and will open skies previously unventured by most clubpilots and hirers.
FD
PS: There are schools and clubs out there which genuinely stimulate longer trips and flying together. Some of this also depends on the GA community they serve.
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I don't think that as a Pilot-PAX we should not comment at all, that would be as bad as the co-pilot who doesn't have the balls to face up to the captain. However there is a fine line between being a 'back seat' pilot and constructive comments. I used to be a bit of a BSP just after I got my PPL but have since learned to chill out a bit [maybe flying doesn't scare me as much as it did]
Me and a couple of mates regularly fly together, and it works well. We tend to swap pilot flying during the flight when the PIC wants a break / take photos etc....Its easier to navigate with two pilots onboard, and two sets of ears listening to ATC can't be bad....
Cheers
EA
]Me and a couple of mates regularly fly together, and it works well. We tend to swap pilot flying during the flight when the PIC wants a break / take photos etc....Its easier to navigate with two pilots onboard, and two sets of ears listening to ATC can't be bad....
Cheers
EA