Too fast, too much, too soon? New PPL > complex conversion.
Join Date: Jun 2001
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I think it kinda depends not only on the individual but on the conversion taking place
IMHO most people would have little problem in converting from say an Archer to an Arrow (the numbers are simple just add 10 kts) you have the fun of wobbly props and up and down wheels - it honestly doesn't take too long to figure out...
If on the other hand your going from say a 152 to a Bonanza or Mooney then clearly its going to take a bit more thinking about and training time (just speeding up thought processes to stay ahead of the aircraft for a start)
Having said that I know of one bloke who was blatting around in an Arrow pre PPL with no worries and another bloke who has quite a bit of time but is having trouble coping with the extra complexity.
IMHO most people would have little problem in converting from say an Archer to an Arrow (the numbers are simple just add 10 kts) you have the fun of wobbly props and up and down wheels - it honestly doesn't take too long to figure out...
If on the other hand your going from say a 152 to a Bonanza or Mooney then clearly its going to take a bit more thinking about and training time (just speeding up thought processes to stay ahead of the aircraft for a start)
Having said that I know of one bloke who was blatting around in an Arrow pre PPL with no worries and another bloke who has quite a bit of time but is having trouble coping with the extra complexity.
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I found the conversion from Cessna 150 to 182 reasonably straight forward.....and all that extra room!!!!!It's certainly heavier, whereby after my 10th circuit on the trot, I had a left arm like popeye.(my instructor was quick to point out that I was a fool for not making full use of the trim 
Join Date: Jun 2002
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planes which were gradually falling apart ... doing well to have one working radio, with the rest of the panel defunct ... this typical-UK-GA scene
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I would say that this is not just a UK problem. The state of the avionics in rental planes at KCDW, are if anything, worse: making instrument flight positively unpleasurable. For example, of the 2 PA28’s I fly, only one has a reliable VOR (just the one), but it doesn’t have a reliable DME. It’s the reverse with the other (ie an unreliable VOR, but a reasonable DME). At least with the warrior for rent at EGKH, the instruments are in reasonable condition.
The problem is not with the sad state of our aircraft construction industry, but the general cost of flying, and what people are prepared to pay for it – ie because the costs are so high, most of us are only prepared to pay the absolute minimum - which results in rentals with just the basics.
It is an interesting philosophical point that while the Yanks earn loads more than the Brits, and the cost of flying is easily half due to cheap gas, they too are only prepared to pay the minimum, which to us Brits is relatively dirt cheap…
The problem is not with the sad state of our aircraft construction industry, but the general cost of flying, and what people are prepared to pay for it – ie because the costs are so high, most of us are only prepared to pay the absolute minimum - which results in rentals with just the basics.
It is an interesting philosophical point that while the Yanks earn loads more than the Brits, and the cost of flying is easily half due to cheap gas, they too are only prepared to pay the minimum, which to us Brits is relatively dirt cheap…
Join Date: Apr 2003
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MLS-12D & KCDW
There isn't a shortage of new planes; in fact quite a number of interesting and "sexy" designs have appeared recently, note the 4-seater DA40 for example and too many 2-seater composites for me to keep track of.
The problem is the lack of students. As KCDW absolutely rightly points out, the decline being in the USA too shows that it isn't anything much to do with cost (whereas the UK flight training industry keeps laboriously pretending it is).
So, what keeps people away? Why are most of the pilots who still hang in there middle aged and often a lot older than that? There is a vast number of men, and some women too, in their 20s and 30s who earn £40k-£60k but few of them choose to learn to fly.
It's another subject, but basically anyone with the money to pursue a significantly time/money-consuming leisure activity is looking to buy into a useful social scene. And there isn't any, in GA, really...
The state of the aircraft is several stages down the road from the primary problem.
There isn't a shortage of new planes; in fact quite a number of interesting and "sexy" designs have appeared recently, note the 4-seater DA40 for example and too many 2-seater composites for me to keep track of.
The problem is the lack of students. As KCDW absolutely rightly points out, the decline being in the USA too shows that it isn't anything much to do with cost (whereas the UK flight training industry keeps laboriously pretending it is).
So, what keeps people away? Why are most of the pilots who still hang in there middle aged and often a lot older than that? There is a vast number of men, and some women too, in their 20s and 30s who earn £40k-£60k but few of them choose to learn to fly.
It's another subject, but basically anyone with the money to pursue a significantly time/money-consuming leisure activity is looking to buy into a useful social scene. And there isn't any, in GA, really...
The state of the aircraft is several stages down the road from the primary problem.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Hello IO540-C4D5D
Agreed, but as I said we don't need any more composite 'glass slippers' 
(I fully acknowledge that many people would disagree with that view).
KCDW, you're perfectly right: I have flown some rather questionable airplanes in the USA (presumably reflecting the relatively loose airworthiness standards under part 91 of the FARs).
In my very limited experience, Australia seems to have quite a few newish aircraft for hire.
quite a number of interesting and "sexy" designs have appeared recently, note the 4-seater DA40 for example and too many 2-seater composites for me to keep track of
(I fully acknowledge that many people would disagree with that view).KCDW, you're perfectly right: I have flown some rather questionable airplanes in the USA (presumably reflecting the relatively loose airworthiness standards under part 91 of the FARs).
In my very limited experience, Australia seems to have quite a few newish aircraft for hire.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Hi
Newish aircraft can be hired for reasonable money, but peeps expect to fly quality aircraft for peanuts and that is unfortunately not possible.
You can hire a new (less than one year old just 100 hrs on the clock) DR400 at Turweston with more avionics than you can shake a stick at; £135 per hour on the Hobbs.
Pilot Flight Training do a nearly new C172S for £115 per hour (again Hobbs)
At Connington you can fly a very nicely equipped Seneca 2 for less than £200 per hour.
OK it is all a bit more expensive than the cheapest of cheap but not extortionate.
As always in life: You pays your money and make your choice.
FD
Newish aircraft can be hired for reasonable money, but peeps expect to fly quality aircraft for peanuts and that is unfortunately not possible.
You can hire a new (less than one year old just 100 hrs on the clock) DR400 at Turweston with more avionics than you can shake a stick at; £135 per hour on the Hobbs.
Pilot Flight Training do a nearly new C172S for £115 per hour (again Hobbs)
At Connington you can fly a very nicely equipped Seneca 2 for less than £200 per hour.
OK it is all a bit more expensive than the cheapest of cheap but not extortionate.
As always in life: You pays your money and make your choice.
FD
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MLS-12D
One may not need glass slippers
but what IS needed is modern-looking aircraft (by which I don't mean new Cessnas) because Joe Public's perception of this business is getting close to a vintage car rally! And it is Joe Public where new pilots come out from. There isn't some special "pilots DNA pool" out there
FlyinDutch
I know of businesses who have tried to operate brand new Cessnas but they got few customers, in a location where old heaps can be hired for say £20/hr less. I expect the reason is that after years of neglect the bottom has dropped out of the GA market. Otherwise, as you suggest, there would be different quality customers at different price levels. It would be interesting to see how one did operating (training in, and renting out) a fully modern fleet, at a location where there isn't competition from 1970 C150s.
One may not need glass slippers
but what IS needed is modern-looking aircraft (by which I don't mean new Cessnas) because Joe Public's perception of this business is getting close to a vintage car rally! And it is Joe Public where new pilots come out from. There isn't some special "pilots DNA pool" out there FlyinDutch
I know of businesses who have tried to operate brand new Cessnas but they got few customers, in a location where old heaps can be hired for say £20/hr less. I expect the reason is that after years of neglect the bottom has dropped out of the GA market. Otherwise, as you suggest, there would be different quality customers at different price levels. It would be interesting to see how one did operating (training in, and renting out) a fully modern fleet, at a location where there isn't competition from 1970 C150s.
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I was in Stuart, Florida a couple of months ago, and one of the FBOs at the airport had just purchased a few brand-new 172s, with the intention of offering basic flight instruction to the well-healed non-pilot owners of private jets based there.
Personally, I would rather save approx. C$50 per hour and fly a less well-equipped (but still in decent shape) 172N; I don't see much benefit from fancy GPS, fuel injection, and whatever other bells and whistles the new models feature. However, certainly the intended customers have the cash, and they probably won't mind paying a bit extra for the privilege of flying a new, well-appointed aircraft. After all, if you can operate your own Challenger, renting a 172 isn't going to seem like much, no matter how new the model.
Personally, I would rather save approx. C$50 per hour and fly a less well-equipped (but still in decent shape) 172N; I don't see much benefit from fancy GPS, fuel injection, and whatever other bells and whistles the new models feature. However, certainly the intended customers have the cash, and they probably won't mind paying a bit extra for the privilege of flying a new, well-appointed aircraft. After all, if you can operate your own Challenger, renting a 172 isn't going to seem like much, no matter how new the model.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I'm surprised to hear that there's not much demand for newish aircraft.
I occassionally hire a C172, which is a couple of years old, from White Waltham, to keep my instrument skills in practice. The last time I tried to book it (the only one), it was fully booked every weekend for the next 5 weeks! A bit of a problem, since the club's currency rules is 4 weeks on type!!! This is despite the fact that they also have several PA28s which are older but cheaper.
Mind you, people who are looking for the cheapest flying possible generally don't rent from White Waltham to start with I suppose.
FFF
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I occassionally hire a C172, which is a couple of years old, from White Waltham, to keep my instrument skills in practice. The last time I tried to book it (the only one), it was fully booked every weekend for the next 5 weeks! A bit of a problem, since the club's currency rules is 4 weeks on type!!! This is despite the fact that they also have several PA28s which are older but cheaper.
Mind you, people who are looking for the cheapest flying possible generally don't rent from White Waltham to start with I suppose.
FFF
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