Minimum Equipment List
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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I have recently had to try and track down a MMEL for a C172.
Ended up talking to a nice chap at the CAA who said that they don't produce MMEL's for under 5700kg.
After talking to one of the inspector of paperwork blokes he told me to copy the FAR for SEP and hack out the bits that we don't have.
IO540-C4D5D i am welll aware of students who write everything down. And I don't bollock them for it.
There are things going on tech all the time.
Fuel pumps
Vac pumps
Mags
Alternators
If the Authorities got hold of a log book where none of these items went tech ever they would be a bit suprised.
But schools being schools will want to postpone them getting fixed until the next check.
I have as proberly most instructors have run with a knackard vac pump but the plane is only used dual or by an experenced pilot who knows the score in VFR.
But there are some things which should go in, all of which effect flight safety.
Compass
Dead mag
tyre creep
alt.
leaking fuel tank
Etc if you don't log these type of items and an accident occurs and you were the last to fly it, your in for a day in court as well.
The view i was putting across was if you have complained repeatedly about about an important instrument and there not doing anything about it log it.
MJ
Ended up talking to a nice chap at the CAA who said that they don't produce MMEL's for under 5700kg.
After talking to one of the inspector of paperwork blokes he told me to copy the FAR for SEP and hack out the bits that we don't have.
IO540-C4D5D i am welll aware of students who write everything down. And I don't bollock them for it.
There are things going on tech all the time.
Fuel pumps
Vac pumps
Mags
Alternators
If the Authorities got hold of a log book where none of these items went tech ever they would be a bit suprised.
But schools being schools will want to postpone them getting fixed until the next check.
I have as proberly most instructors have run with a knackard vac pump but the plane is only used dual or by an experenced pilot who knows the score in VFR.
But there are some things which should go in, all of which effect flight safety.
Compass
Dead mag
tyre creep
alt.
leaking fuel tank
Etc if you don't log these type of items and an accident occurs and you were the last to fly it, your in for a day in court as well.
The view i was putting across was if you have complained repeatedly about about an important instrument and there not doing anything about it log it.
MJ
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Joined: Feb 2000
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From: UK
Bookworm, whilst I disagree with you about which is the top level document, I do agree with you that the POH is the definitive working level document. It does seem more than mildly wrong that the POH doesn't contain a clear list of minimum serviceable equipment since that is the document any operator has most available to them.
I took a look at a Cessna TCDS and that's no more clear, and from memory (I'm allergic to single engined Cessnas so don't keep their documentation around) the Cessna POH doesn't have a clear instrumentation MEL either. Neither can I find anything in CAP455 which is the other obvious place to look. Looking deeper, into JAR-VLA 1-App H which is a JAA approved sample format for an operators manual although it says there must be systems description, there's no requirement listed to state what should be fitted and serviceable for flight.
It's starting to strike me that although the information is there if you look hard enough, there is a definite weakness in current practice - this information should be out in the open. Anybody feel brave and fancy flagging this up to the powers that be?
G
I took a look at a Cessna TCDS and that's no more clear, and from memory (I'm allergic to single engined Cessnas so don't keep their documentation around) the Cessna POH doesn't have a clear instrumentation MEL either. Neither can I find anything in CAP455 which is the other obvious place to look. Looking deeper, into JAR-VLA 1-App H which is a JAA approved sample format for an operators manual although it says there must be systems description, there's no requirement listed to state what should be fitted and serviceable for flight.
It's starting to strike me that although the information is there if you look hard enough, there is a definite weakness in current practice - this information should be out in the open. Anybody feel brave and fancy flagging this up to the powers that be?
G
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
From: UK
Interestingly, if you look at the data sheet for a microlight at http://www.bmaa.org/hads.htm it quite clearly tells you the minimum instruments to be fitted. (bottom of page 4 on HADS HM2 for example).
P
P
Flies for fun
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
I rented a PA 28 once, the compass didn't work at all in the climb cos there was a fluid leaking all over my knee and the DI didn't rotate whilst the aircraft was climbing either! I got in so much trouble with ATC that I will never fly an airplane again if the compass and DI are both on the iffy side! The aircraft only had one com as well but that's another story but at least the donk didn't pack up!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 191
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From: Uk
I have flown from a number of schools in the UK - MEL was always in the Flying/Pilots Order Book in each case. This document has to get CAA approval.
Magnetic compass and compass deviation card must be present and functioning correctly.
Magnetic compass and compass deviation card must be present and functioning correctly.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
But there's no MEL in the POH for our Arrow III. Since it's on Private Cat and not hired out, there is no Flying/Pilot's order book anyway.
Does that mean that legally we don't need a compass?
Does that mean that legally we don't need a compass?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
As usual with CAA stuff there s nothing in writing.
if the !!!! hits the fan its up to pilots call.
everything is eventually referenceds to a FAR under 5700kg
Which say you must have a working alt, compass and clock.
Which thinking about it is all you really need for VFR.
Is still whooly as !!!! and basically lets you fly as long as nothing happens. Buts allows them to shaft you as they see fit.
BTW this is exactly the same in motor law which is all set up so that a car exiting a factory is illegal as soon as it leaves the preduction line.
MJ
Who has poked 40tonne lorrys down the road for the last 10 years and still hasn't driven a legal HGV on the road yet.
if the !!!! hits the fan its up to pilots call.
everything is eventually referenceds to a FAR under 5700kg
Which say you must have a working alt, compass and clock.
Which thinking about it is all you really need for VFR.
Is still whooly as !!!! and basically lets you fly as long as nothing happens. Buts allows them to shaft you as they see fit.
BTW this is exactly the same in motor law which is all set up so that a car exiting a factory is illegal as soon as it leaves the preduction line.
MJ
Who has poked 40tonne lorrys down the road for the last 10 years and still hasn't driven a legal HGV on the road yet.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Dorset
MJ
- well, I think there must be very few of the aircraft that I've flown in the last few years that have had a working clock! There was one that I could get working if I wound it up and set it, but I'm struggling to think of any others!!
Which say you must have a working alt, compass and clock.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 3,498
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
WORKING clock? No, it says you must have a CLOCK. An approved-for-aircraft-use one.
I don't think I've ever been in a C1xx or a PA28 with a clock that works. We tried for a while to get one that did, but the cost was prohibitive. A Breitling, araldited to the panel, would be cheaper.
I wear a watch, and carry a spare one (with my spare glasses).
I don't think I've ever been in a C1xx or a PA28 with a clock that works. We tried for a while to get one that did, but the cost was prohibitive. A Breitling, araldited to the panel, would be cheaper.
I wear a watch, and carry a spare one (with my spare glasses).
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
I understand that only FTOs, not RFs have to have an 'approved' flying order book?
We worked out a simple list for the PA28 together with associated restrictions based on commonsense and experience - never had any problem. For example, we require that 2 radios must be serviceable for fligh above overcast cloud. This is the list we use:
Radio: 1 VHF Comm radio shall be serviceable. With only 1 serviceable VHF Comm, the aircraft shall not be operated above overcast cloud.
Intercom: Shall be serviceable with more than 1 aircraft occupant.
Transponder: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall be flown dual only or by qualified licence holders approved and briefed by the Duty Instructor. ATC shall be informed of the unserviceability.
GPS: Warrior II aircraft – No restrictions. Cherokee 140C aircraft – VHF element of Comm 2 (GPS/Comm) shall be serviceable if Comm 1 is unserviceable.
Parking brake: Shall be serviceable.
Toe Brakes: Shall be serviceable on LH side.
(RH side shall also be serviceable for early dual lessons)
Engine oil leaks: If minor, one ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the specific authorisation of the CFI. Suspected leaks shall be notified to the Duty Instructor before flight.
Starter motor: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall not be flown.
Alternator: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the authorisation of the CFI.
Suction pump: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the authorisation of the CFI.
Carb Heat: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown.
Primary Flying Controls: Shall be serviceable.
Flaps/Trimmers: Shall be serviceable.
Stall Warner: Shall be serviceable.
Fuel System:
Electric Pump: If unserviceable, one ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown. Aircraft Commanders shall use the maximum runway length available on departure and shall minimise flight time below 1000 ft agl.
Fuel Leaks: The aircraft shall not be flown.
Magnetic Compass: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall not leave the aerodrome circuit except for one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation.
Artificial Horizon: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown in day VMC only.
Direction Indicator: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown on dual local flights in day VMC only.
Pitot Heater: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown in day VMC only.
Internal Lighting: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
Navigation Lights: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
Landing Light: If unserviceable, Night Flying may only be conducted with the approval of the Duty Instructor at the Commander’s discretion.
Fin Beacon: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
We worked out a simple list for the PA28 together with associated restrictions based on commonsense and experience - never had any problem. For example, we require that 2 radios must be serviceable for fligh above overcast cloud. This is the list we use:
Radio: 1 VHF Comm radio shall be serviceable. With only 1 serviceable VHF Comm, the aircraft shall not be operated above overcast cloud.
Intercom: Shall be serviceable with more than 1 aircraft occupant.
Transponder: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall be flown dual only or by qualified licence holders approved and briefed by the Duty Instructor. ATC shall be informed of the unserviceability.
GPS: Warrior II aircraft – No restrictions. Cherokee 140C aircraft – VHF element of Comm 2 (GPS/Comm) shall be serviceable if Comm 1 is unserviceable.
Parking brake: Shall be serviceable.
Toe Brakes: Shall be serviceable on LH side.
(RH side shall also be serviceable for early dual lessons)
Engine oil leaks: If minor, one ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the specific authorisation of the CFI. Suspected leaks shall be notified to the Duty Instructor before flight.
Starter motor: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall not be flown.
Alternator: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the authorisation of the CFI.
Suction pump: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown with the authorisation of the CFI.
Carb Heat: If unserviceable, one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown.
Primary Flying Controls: Shall be serviceable.
Flaps/Trimmers: Shall be serviceable.
Stall Warner: Shall be serviceable.
Fuel System:
Electric Pump: If unserviceable, one ferry flight to the maintenance organisation may be flown. Aircraft Commanders shall use the maximum runway length available on departure and shall minimise flight time below 1000 ft agl.
Fuel Leaks: The aircraft shall not be flown.
Magnetic Compass: If unserviceable, the aircraft shall not leave the aerodrome circuit except for one day VMC ferry flight to the maintenance organisation.
Artificial Horizon: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown in day VMC only.
Direction Indicator: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown on dual local flights in day VMC only.
Pitot Heater: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown in day VMC only.
Internal Lighting: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
Navigation Lights: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
Landing Light: If unserviceable, Night Flying may only be conducted with the approval of the Duty Instructor at the Commander’s discretion.
Fin Beacon: Shall be serviceable for Night Flying.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 96
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From: Brighton
Beagle,
"Direction Indicator: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown on dual local flights in day VMC only."
I am sorry to ask this but does this mean that some instructor would still take a student up in such a plane and get him to pay the £100/hour or whatever?
Let's face it, no PPL with more than two braincells are going to self fly hire a plane with a duff DI.
Your list makes sense but it makes a very sad commentary on the state of GA - how long does it take to change a light bulb for example? (no light bulb jokes please )
"Direction Indicator: If unserviceable, the aircraft may be flown on dual local flights in day VMC only."
I am sorry to ask this but does this mean that some instructor would still take a student up in such a plane and get him to pay the £100/hour or whatever?
Let's face it, no PPL with more than two braincells are going to self fly hire a plane with a duff DI.
Your list makes sense but it makes a very sad commentary on the state of GA - how long does it take to change a light bulb for example? (no light bulb jokes please
)
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hate to dfiffer here...
Why do you need a DI unless required by the ANO as a PPL??? Cant you fly with just a compass?
As an instructor I dont need a DI for Effects of controls pt1 or part 2, nor ex10A, 11A, 10B.1, 10B.2 - none of these require use of the DI per se - my students arent navigating at this stage and therefore navigation of the aircraft is controlled by me and they fly by reference to visual points outside the cockpit - which is where I want them to be flying - not heads inside.....
So it can work quite happily - you just need to be intelligent about how you use an aircraft.
P.S Microlights manage without DIs. This may come as a shock to some....In fact I even got my PPL without ever seeing a DI.....
Regards,
FF
IO540-C4D5D - With regard to 'sad commentry on GA' - I assume you are on an airfield where approved engineers are available 24x7. Ah thought not. !!!! happens as they say....it takes time and timing to get problems rectified.
FF
Why do you need a DI unless required by the ANO as a PPL??? Cant you fly with just a compass?
As an instructor I dont need a DI for Effects of controls pt1 or part 2, nor ex10A, 11A, 10B.1, 10B.2 - none of these require use of the DI per se - my students arent navigating at this stage and therefore navigation of the aircraft is controlled by me and they fly by reference to visual points outside the cockpit - which is where I want them to be flying - not heads inside.....
So it can work quite happily - you just need to be intelligent about how you use an aircraft.
P.S Microlights manage without DIs. This may come as a shock to some....In fact I even got my PPL without ever seeing a DI.....
Regards,
FF
IO540-C4D5D - With regard to 'sad commentry on GA' - I assume you are on an airfield where approved engineers are available 24x7. Ah thought not. !!!! happens as they say....it takes time and timing to get problems rectified.
FF
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
From: UK
It should be said however FF that most microlights are fitted with big, chunky, easy to read compasses - usually the Silva yacht types. Most GA compasses are only used for updating the DI, and therefore are only designed to be read whilst flying straight and level in reasonably unbumpy conditions.
I find it much easier generally to navigate by compass alone in a microlight than in a GA type such as a PA28 with a u/s DI.
P
I find it much easier generally to navigate by compass alone in a microlight than in a GA type such as a PA28 with a u/s DI.
P
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
From: UK
Granted. GA compassess are fickle affairs...but its not impossible. I personally use timed turns in light aircraft anyway...but still not impossible for those of us who havent given way to GPS as sole means of nav.....
Hell if you have GPS then why do you need a DI anyway?
Hell if you have GPS then why do you need a DI anyway?
