Question about Homebuilds and CofAs
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Join Date: Mar 2003
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Question about Homebuilds and CofAs
Just a quick question, would it be possible to build an aircraft, and on completion of building activity get a CofA instead of inspectors continually checking on the build standard?
When forign aircraft are inported for example, and put on the Golf register, surely the same standard of inspection dosn't apply in these circumstances?
WelshFlyer
When forign aircraft are inported for example, and put on the Golf register, surely the same standard of inspection dosn't apply in these circumstances?
WelshFlyer
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WF
I am quite sure that when CAA aircraft are built they also go through stage inspections!
Imported aircraft (CAA) were subject to the stage inspection during construction.
I am currently involved in importing an experimental (PFA) and have agreed an inspection schedule with the PFA.
Some UK homebuilts (my neighbour's P51D springs to mind) are CAA administered builds.
Stik
I am quite sure that when CAA aircraft are built they also go through stage inspections!
Imported aircraft (CAA) were subject to the stage inspection during construction.
I am currently involved in importing an experimental (PFA) and have agreed an inspection schedule with the PFA.
Some UK homebuilts (my neighbour's P51D springs to mind) are CAA administered builds.
Stik
Join Date: Aug 2000
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To get a CofA your aircraft must conform to the "Type Certificate Data Sheet" of a certificated design.
As one of these is unlikely to exist for a homebuilt design (a few exceptions - Pitts, Jodels etc), you cannot get a CofA unless you submit it for certification yourself - got about a £1m to spare?
Even for homebuilts of certificated designs this rarely happens, as it involves the TC holder to confirm that it has been built in accordance with a TCDS.
Most people would rather have the cost savings and simplicity of a PFA/CAA permit than the few advantages of a CofA.
As one of these is unlikely to exist for a homebuilt design (a few exceptions - Pitts, Jodels etc), you cannot get a CofA unless you submit it for certification yourself - got about a £1m to spare?
Even for homebuilts of certificated designs this rarely happens, as it involves the TC holder to confirm that it has been built in accordance with a TCDS.
Most people would rather have the cost savings and simplicity of a PFA/CAA permit than the few advantages of a CofA.
If I may interpret Welshflyer's question slightly differently. No, you can't get a CofA on a homebuilt, only a CAA/JAA/FAA/NAA (National Airworthiness Authority) approved manufacturer can do that, following procedures agreed with their local authority.
By and large, those procedures will make half a dozen stage inspections by a PFA/BMAA/CAA inspector seem gentle by comparison. That's why a homebuilt is only eligible for a permit to fly (or equivalent in other countries, such as the US Experimental ticket).
G
By and large, those procedures will make half a dozen stage inspections by a PFA/BMAA/CAA inspector seem gentle by comparison. That's why a homebuilt is only eligible for a permit to fly (or equivalent in other countries, such as the US Experimental ticket).
G
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There are some amazing "experimental" planes available in the USA. But am I right in saying that ALL of them (and we are looking, presumably, at N-reg operation with FAA licenses) are limited to daylight VFR in the UK?
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I don't think that as a non-American you can operate an Experimental Category aircraft in the UK.
I can't remember where I saw this, but I am researching the point. I think an Experimental Category aircraft cannot be registered to a corporation, only to an individual. So the mechanism whereby other N-Registered aircraft are owned by UK nationals (a blind trust) cannot be used to for experimental aircraft. When I find a definitive reference document that either supports or denies this position, I'll post a further reply.
I can't remember where I saw this, but I am researching the point. I think an Experimental Category aircraft cannot be registered to a corporation, only to an individual. So the mechanism whereby other N-Registered aircraft are owned by UK nationals (a blind trust) cannot be used to for experimental aircraft. When I find a definitive reference document that either supports or denies this position, I'll post a further reply.
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The FAA Advisory Circular on the Cirtification and Operation of Amateur Built Aircraft (available at http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/amateur/ac20-27e.pdf
contains the following definitions
Amateur-Built Aircraft. An aircraft in which the major portion has been fabricated and assembled by a person(s) who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or
recreation.
Person An individual, firm, partnership, corporation, company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. It includes a trustee, receiver, assignee, or similar representative of
any of them.
The fact that a person can also be a corporation would appear to means that an Amatuer Built aircraft can be registed by a trust.
The Advisory Circular also describes situations where the owner is not necessarily the builder, although this is really aimed at the situation when ownership of the aircraft is transfered after the aircraft is built.
So it is more hopeful that an N-Registered Experimental Aircraft could be built and flown in the UK, if owned via a Trust.
I'll keep looking for definitive information, as the subject is of great interest to myself as it potentialy offers a route around some of the restrictions on PFA Permit Aircraft.
contains the following definitions
Amateur-Built Aircraft. An aircraft in which the major portion has been fabricated and assembled by a person(s) who undertook the construction process solely for their own education or
recreation.
Person An individual, firm, partnership, corporation, company, association, joint-stock association, or governmental entity. It includes a trustee, receiver, assignee, or similar representative of
any of them.
The fact that a person can also be a corporation would appear to means that an Amatuer Built aircraft can be registed by a trust.
The Advisory Circular also describes situations where the owner is not necessarily the builder, although this is really aimed at the situation when ownership of the aircraft is transfered after the aircraft is built.
So it is more hopeful that an N-Registered Experimental Aircraft could be built and flown in the UK, if owned via a Trust.
I'll keep looking for definitive information, as the subject is of great interest to myself as it potentialy offers a route around some of the restrictions on PFA Permit Aircraft.
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Tacpot, put politely you are barking up the wrong tree.
In the UK your choices are...
- PFA permit system
- BMAA permit system
- Permit application direct to the CAA
- Build a glider.
- Obtain a CAA company approval to allow you to work under your own supervision. For this you need certain key professional staff, premises, procedures, several tens of thousands of pounds in fees, etc. etc.
The first two are your only realistic options for a relatively simple aircraft, the 3rd for a very complex one and you'll need some serious engineering talent onside to help you, the last only makes any sense if you are trying to go into the aircraft manufacturing business.
Put bluntly, for most powered projects if you think Francis Donaldson at the PFA will make your life too difficult your only viable option is to go and be nice to Guy Gratton at the BMAA (or vice versa). Nobody is going to allow you to use the FAA experimental system, which UK CAA distrusts hugely, to bypass the UK airworthiness system.
Save yourself a lot of grief and either fit in with the UK system, emigrate, or give-up. Those are your only three viable options. The corporation .v. individual thing is a red herring, the airworthiness regulations will stop you before anything to do with citizenship or ownership becomes an issue at-all.
Sorry to sound negative, but this is realism.
P
In the UK your choices are...
- PFA permit system
- BMAA permit system
- Permit application direct to the CAA
- Build a glider.
- Obtain a CAA company approval to allow you to work under your own supervision. For this you need certain key professional staff, premises, procedures, several tens of thousands of pounds in fees, etc. etc.
The first two are your only realistic options for a relatively simple aircraft, the 3rd for a very complex one and you'll need some serious engineering talent onside to help you, the last only makes any sense if you are trying to go into the aircraft manufacturing business.
Put bluntly, for most powered projects if you think Francis Donaldson at the PFA will make your life too difficult your only viable option is to go and be nice to Guy Gratton at the BMAA (or vice versa). Nobody is going to allow you to use the FAA experimental system, which UK CAA distrusts hugely, to bypass the UK airworthiness system.
Save yourself a lot of grief and either fit in with the UK system, emigrate, or give-up. Those are your only three viable options. The corporation .v. individual thing is a red herring, the airworthiness regulations will stop you before anything to do with citizenship or ownership becomes an issue at-all.
Sorry to sound negative, but this is realism.
P
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As Pilotage says....
It's not an ownership issue; it's an airworthiness issue. Permit to Fly aircraft do not have a CofA issued by an ICAO country - they have no CofA at all. Therefore they cannot be flown outside of the USA unless you have the express permission of the ruling aviation authority. The CAA will issue short-term permission if you have a good reason, but you cannot keep one here.
The same applies to PFA aircraft and the UK - to take them foreign requires permssion from the country you are going to - although sometimes a blanket permission is available.
The same applies to PFA aircraft and the UK - to take them foreign requires permssion from the country you are going to - although sometimes a blanket permission is available.
All requirements for stall speed are based on CAS or EAS, not IAS.
And how on each could you tell what a passing aeroplane's stall speed was, especially in CAS since most homebuilders don't determine PEC anyway?
Airworthiness Notice 52 incidentally (in CAP 455) contains the CAA guidance on bringing a foreign homebuilt in. Basically it says up to a month without permission, 3 months with permission, then take it home.
G
And how on each could you tell what a passing aeroplane's stall speed was, especially in CAS since most homebuilders don't determine PEC anyway?
Airworthiness Notice 52 incidentally (in CAP 455) contains the CAA guidance on bringing a foreign homebuilt in. Basically it says up to a month without permission, 3 months with permission, then take it home.
G
