The Mighty Fin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Mighty Fin
So I’m sitting in the Lytham hotel dining room tonight enjoying some quality nosh in salubrious surroundings, with a super view out of the tall old windows of the Ribble estuary right across the golden sands to Southport, and the hills of inland Lancashire off to the left intermittently disappearing in heavy rain showers ( and there are some pretty good associated partial rainbows between the cloud layers). I note a small black flying object – a Tornado a couple of miles out over the estuary (who can mistake the mighty fin??), about 2000 feet going right to left downwind LH for Warton, no doubt.
A short while later, the relaxed sounds of subdued Sinatra, quiet voices over leisurely meals, and the chink of crystal and fine china are subsumed by an increasingly loud roar. The Mighty Fin is back – left to right this time, and much lower and much closer, presumably off a go-around or a touch and go. Then he banks left out over the estuary and has everyone’s attention; we get a super-detailed plan view of the ‘Fin’ with wings swept forward in a steep bank away from us. And as the tall old windows start to rattle in their frames as he comes tail-on to us, we note the twin orange blobs of ‘burner.
Ok, it was a relatively steep turn (maybe 70 degrees), but it was slow and it was level. Why the need for ‘burners? Does the ‘Fin’ generate that much induced drag in such a turn?
SSD
A short while later, the relaxed sounds of subdued Sinatra, quiet voices over leisurely meals, and the chink of crystal and fine china are subsumed by an increasingly loud roar. The Mighty Fin is back – left to right this time, and much lower and much closer, presumably off a go-around or a touch and go. Then he banks left out over the estuary and has everyone’s attention; we get a super-detailed plan view of the ‘Fin’ with wings swept forward in a steep bank away from us. And as the tall old windows start to rattle in their frames as he comes tail-on to us, we note the twin orange blobs of ‘burner.
Ok, it was a relatively steep turn (maybe 70 degrees), but it was slow and it was level. Why the need for ‘burners? Does the ‘Fin’ generate that much induced drag in such a turn?
SSD
Swept wing therefore very very low aspect ratio, steep turn - say 4g, therefore lots of lift. Sounds like a recipe for high induced drag to me.
Also at low level, the engine isn't all that efficient, so needs a bit of help.
Lucky swine, I was sat in an office all day processing airworthiness reports.
G
Also at low level, the engine isn't all that efficient, so needs a bit of help.
Lucky swine, I was sat in an office all day processing airworthiness reports.
G
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having spent 7 years working alongside the Ribble in the factory involved (but it *was* 20 yrs ago!), it used to be a fine sight watching the things being built and then test flying in the yellow epoxy primer paint scheme. Watching a pair of them go off with reheat against a thundery grey sky was worth delaying the walk across the car park towards the 'get me home' vehicle.
The Mighty Fin - good variable geometry aircraft, but very draggy at low speed with all the drag-inducing gear out. Can't talk too specifically in a public forum (and can't remember too much detail from that long ago anyway), but I doubt the reheat was absolutely necessary to sustain flight in a level turn. Difficult to know what was going on in the cockpit at the time - may have been practice for a flying display, may have been an engine test, may have been fully loaded with stores / fuel, may have been ongoing pilot training, etc.
PS Know the Lytham Hotel fairly well, having lived in Ansdell (between Lytham and St Annes) for 7 years - is it still a Bank's pub?
The Mighty Fin - good variable geometry aircraft, but very draggy at low speed with all the drag-inducing gear out. Can't talk too specifically in a public forum (and can't remember too much detail from that long ago anyway), but I doubt the reheat was absolutely necessary to sustain flight in a level turn. Difficult to know what was going on in the cockpit at the time - may have been practice for a flying display, may have been an engine test, may have been fully loaded with stores / fuel, may have been ongoing pilot training, etc.
PS Know the Lytham Hotel fairly well, having lived in Ansdell (between Lytham and St Annes) for 7 years - is it still a Bank's pub?
Suave yet Shallow
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: half way between the gutter and the stars.
Posts: 343
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pity there's no smiley for 'green with envy' I'd have used it a lot recently....
But just to add whats already been said, if he's slow...pulling G which he knows will increase the drag I'm not suprised he firewalled it to keep things sweet inside...
But also..if you don't have to pay the fuel bill...why wouldn't you
But just to add whats already been said, if he's slow...pulling G which he knows will increase the drag I'm not suprised he firewalled it to keep things sweet inside...
But also..if you don't have to pay the fuel bill...why wouldn't you
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 3,325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CB-
Not literally 'The Lytham Hotel' - it was a 4* hotel on the 'front' in Lytham (The Clifton) - definately not a pub ;~), though there is an excellent real-ale pub behind it - the Taps, much frequented by Aerospace types (and me, when I'm in town!).
SSD
Not literally 'The Lytham Hotel' - it was a 4* hotel on the 'front' in Lytham (The Clifton) - definately not a pub ;~), though there is an excellent real-ale pub behind it - the Taps, much frequented by Aerospace types (and me, when I'm in town!).
SSD
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dorset
Posts: 902
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Know it - good view of the Windmill, n'est-ce pas??
Would also mention the fact that bar staff there used to put little chalk marks on the bar beside the pump for each pint pulled. Little matey used to come around, empty the slop tray for that pump into a bucket and wipe off all the chalk marks for that pump. He then disappeared into the cellar with the bucket and return with it empty. I really don't have a clue what he was doing in the cellar!
However, as this is a flying forum I won't mention it 
Would also mention the fact that bar staff there used to put little chalk marks on the bar beside the pump for each pint pulled. Little matey used to come around, empty the slop tray for that pump into a bucket and wipe off all the chalk marks for that pump. He then disappeared into the cellar with the bucket and return with it empty. I really don't have a clue what he was doing in the cellar!
However, as this is a flying forum I won't mention it
Guest
Posts: n/a
The mighty Flap
So I’m sitting in the Aero Club dining room tonight enjoying some nosh in dubious surroundings, with a slimey view out of the tatty old windows of Winter Hill right across the brown peat to Bolton, and the hills of Lancashire off to the right intermidley disappearing in heavy rain showers ( and there are some pretty good associated partial rainbows between the cloud layers). I note a small red flying object – a Chipmunk a couple of miles out over the Moss (who can mistake the mighty Flap??), about 2000 feet going right to left downwind LH for Barton, no doubt.
A short while later, the relaxed sounds of a subdued Finlay, quiet voices over leisurely cold meals, and the clunk of mugs and cheap china tea are subsumed by an increasingly loud clatter. The Mighty Flap is back – left to right this time, and much lower and much closer, presumably off a go-around or a touch and go. Then he banks left out over the Cemetary and has a couple of peoples attention; we get a super-detailed plan view of the ‘Flap’ with wings strait out in a steep bank away from us. And as the tatty old windows start to rattle in their frames as he comes tail-on to us, we note the single blue blobs of ‘oil burner'.
Ok, it was a relatively shallow turn (maybe 7 degrees), but it was slow and it was level. Why the need for ‘oil burners? Does the ‘Flap’ generate that much induced drag in such a turn?
Sir George Cayley
The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door
A short while later, the relaxed sounds of a subdued Finlay, quiet voices over leisurely cold meals, and the clunk of mugs and cheap china tea are subsumed by an increasingly loud clatter. The Mighty Flap is back – left to right this time, and much lower and much closer, presumably off a go-around or a touch and go. Then he banks left out over the Cemetary and has a couple of peoples attention; we get a super-detailed plan view of the ‘Flap’ with wings strait out in a steep bank away from us. And as the tatty old windows start to rattle in their frames as he comes tail-on to us, we note the single blue blobs of ‘oil burner'.
Ok, it was a relatively shallow turn (maybe 7 degrees), but it was slow and it was level. Why the need for ‘oil burners? Does the ‘Flap’ generate that much induced drag in such a turn?
Sir George Cayley
The air is a navigable ocean that laps at everyones door
Being serious for a moment, Warton is not an operational Tornado base, it's a company airfield. The budget for CT is going to be tiny, all flying from there is going to be on company business.
There is a standard flight test technique that is used to determine combat performance - that is the ability of an aeroplane to turn continuously at best rate in a dogfight. This involves timed acceleration in full dry or full reheat at a series of altitudes from as low as practicable to as high as practicable. This would be consistent with the selecting full reheat at sea level and a slow 200kn or so.
Just guessing, there are other tests - perhaps measured fuel flown in combat or take-off power at sea level, perhaps just checking that the things work at corners of the envelope (sea level being the altitude corner, perhaps with a low speed value added in). Or I suppose he could be planning some minimum weight tests last and needs to get the fuel state down to a particular level.
One thing I'd put my money on, flying out of Warton on company budget, they won't just be playing.
G
There is a standard flight test technique that is used to determine combat performance - that is the ability of an aeroplane to turn continuously at best rate in a dogfight. This involves timed acceleration in full dry or full reheat at a series of altitudes from as low as practicable to as high as practicable. This would be consistent with the selecting full reheat at sea level and a slow 200kn or so.
Just guessing, there are other tests - perhaps measured fuel flown in combat or take-off power at sea level, perhaps just checking that the things work at corners of the envelope (sea level being the altitude corner, perhaps with a low speed value added in). Or I suppose he could be planning some minimum weight tests last and needs to get the fuel state down to a particular level.
One thing I'd put my money on, flying out of Warton on company budget, they won't just be playing.
G
Oh dear!
Let's not get too serious here! Sir George Cayley, masterful use of understated dry humour (yes, I am a former Chippie driver). You have made one person in the Antipodes laugh themselves silly.
Thankyou very much!
DA
Let's not get too serious here! Sir George Cayley, masterful use of understated dry humour (yes, I am a former Chippie driver). You have made one person in the Antipodes laugh themselves silly.
Thankyou very much!
DA
