Aircraft ownership and flight instruction
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Yes, I guessed it might be arbitrary to a degree, whichever way round it is 
I am looking at the little picture for logic when it probably exists in the big picture instead.
Let's take the conversation on a bit.....
Hypothetically speaking if a pilot were to complete a variation to his PPL (i.e. the removal of the night restriction) which was completed by an fully qualified instructor using an a/c which was operated in the private category, where does that leave his rating/variation and his licence......legal/illegal. Should he fly, should he not, should he complete the five hours again?
If he does fly then I wonder what would happen if there was, God & Keef forbid, an incident.
Insurance valid
not sure....he might find himself in one of my courts 
Any views?
Barney
I am looking at the little picture for logic when it probably exists in the big picture instead.
Let's take the conversation on a bit.....
Hypothetically speaking if a pilot were to complete a variation to his PPL (i.e. the removal of the night restriction) which was completed by an fully qualified instructor using an a/c which was operated in the private category, where does that leave his rating/variation and his licence......legal/illegal. Should he fly, should he not, should he complete the five hours again?
If he does fly then I wonder what would happen if there was, God & Keef forbid, an incident.
Insurance valid
not sure....he might find himself in one of my courts Any views?
Barney
Lets say you go and hire a C150 from your local flying club as a licensed pilot; so far as the CAA is concerned this is a private flight from an operational viewpoint, but a public transport flight from an airworthiness viewpoint. Hence you only need a PPL to hire an aeroplane, but it still needs a PT CofA.
Where instruction is concerned, there is a similar division. The flight is considered public transport from an airworthiness viewpoint (the AIC exempts you from this rule, but doesn't actually change it where sole-owner training is concerned) and also from an operational viewpoint, which is why the instructor needs a commercial license.
So from the operational viewpoint, so long as the instructor was properly licensed and you used a licensed airfield, the flight would be operationally legitimate and you'd almost certainly get your license / rating from CAA Personnel Licensing. But from an airworthiness viewpoint the flight would be illegal because it was conducted without holding the relevant CofA on the aeroplane. So, whilst one bit of the CAA (PLD) would probably give you your license, another bit (aircraft certification and/or legal and enforcement) would be prosecuting your instructor for breaching the ANO with respect to the airworthiness regulations.
G
Where instruction is concerned, there is a similar division. The flight is considered public transport from an airworthiness viewpoint (the AIC exempts you from this rule, but doesn't actually change it where sole-owner training is concerned) and also from an operational viewpoint, which is why the instructor needs a commercial license.
So from the operational viewpoint, so long as the instructor was properly licensed and you used a licensed airfield, the flight would be operationally legitimate and you'd almost certainly get your license / rating from CAA Personnel Licensing. But from an airworthiness viewpoint the flight would be illegal because it was conducted without holding the relevant CofA on the aeroplane. So, whilst one bit of the CAA (PLD) would probably give you your license, another bit (aircraft certification and/or legal and enforcement) would be prosecuting your instructor for breaching the ANO with respect to the airworthiness regulations.
G
Ramasseur des pommes
Thread Starter
Thanks to everyone for replying with their views and thoughts on this subject. As I suspected, it's by no means straightforward. 
I'll read up some more on the subject, particuarly any AICs.
I think that waiting until I've got my PPL would make things easier; I'm going to start flying everyday to get it done before my next contract (I'm a freelancer)!
I'll read up some more on the subject, particuarly any AICs.I think that waiting until I've got my PPL would make things easier; I'm going to start flying everyday to get it done before my next contract (I'm a freelancer)!
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Barney_Gumble
There are several thousand employees at the CAA and they have to paid somehow. Then you have all the licensed engineers, doctors, parts distributors who charge hundreds or thousands of pounds markup for rubber-stamping a certificate, you name it, who depend on the "system" for their living too. This is why there are various restrictions many of which appear to be bizzare
Otherwise, every plane flying in the UK would be perfectly legally registered in Liberia where the maintenance regime and license / medical issues are ... shall we say ... more "liberal" 
I am pretty damn sure that plenty of people have been trained over the past years in Private CofA planes. I have no idea but I don't suppose it would invalidate their logged hours so long as the student participated in good faith - let's face it, how many students know this stuff? It's only when you become an owner that you have to know it; even many syndicate members don't know it. I was offered IMC Rating training in a Private CofA plane once, by a very experienced instructor who most definitely "knew" (I discussed it with him at length).
You've got to be very careful what you buy (whole or share) if you plan to do additional training. It's not only the CofA type but also the equipment fitted, for example if an ADF does not work then you might just about be able to legally train (in VMC with an instructor) but you won't be able to do many/most IAPs. And a group keen to get rid of a troublesome member isn't going to explain this to you!
There are several thousand employees at the CAA and they have to paid somehow. Then you have all the licensed engineers, doctors, parts distributors who charge hundreds or thousands of pounds markup for rubber-stamping a certificate, you name it, who depend on the "system" for their living too. This is why there are various restrictions many of which appear to be bizzare
Otherwise, every plane flying in the UK would be perfectly legally registered in Liberia where the maintenance regime and license / medical issues are ... shall we say ... more "liberal" I am pretty damn sure that plenty of people have been trained over the past years in Private CofA planes. I have no idea but I don't suppose it would invalidate their logged hours so long as the student participated in good faith - let's face it, how many students know this stuff? It's only when you become an owner that you have to know it; even many syndicate members don't know it. I was offered IMC Rating training in a Private CofA plane once, by a very experienced instructor who most definitely "knew" (I discussed it with him at length).
You've got to be very careful what you buy (whole or share) if you plan to do additional training. It's not only the CofA type but also the equipment fitted, for example if an ADF does not work then you might just about be able to legally train (in VMC with an instructor) but you won't be able to do many/most IAPs. And a group keen to get rid of a troublesome member isn't going to explain this to you!
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Hi AMS
I am not aware of any changes to the rules as stated here by others.
See your brave plan here but may be I can inject a little reality check in here.
If you are as you state half way through your PPL you will only have about 23 hours to go or £2300 readies.
To get a C152 onto the Public Transport C of A you will need to fork out dosh (fee for this from the CAA is £400) Dont know the story behind your intended mount but someone must have deemed it more costeffective to let it go from PT to Pvt for a reason (engine hours?)
If we assume that you need another 23 hours to finish your PPL you will have to fork out the following:
Fuel 23hours @ 20 l @ £1 = £460
Engine fund 23 hrs @ £5 = £115
Insurance (higher as for abinitio training lets guestimate 2500 per annum and 250 hours per year so £10 per hour) = £230
Instructor (you will do well to get one freelance for less than £15/h) = £345
Landing fees for circuits and bumps £100
Parking for say 2 months/2 (as your mate will pay half) £100
Cost for annual (again estimate 250 hours per year and £1500 annual) approx £150
So that comes to £1900 before any rectifying work is done on the 152 to get it to PT spec.
If you intend to keep the 152 to let it out to other folks you have no option and going this route is the way forward. If you just want it as a mount for you and your mate Iwould suggest finish off what you are doing at the moment and then take the jump.
What you also may want to consider is waiting to get the PPL and do some flying on different machines before committing some money to this particular machine as you may well find that with another 50 hours under the belt you want to stretch your horizons beyound the 152.
Just my thoughts.
FD
Hi IO540 etc,
I think that it is very easy for the CAA to check against the register the registrations used for your training.
It would be very silly to train not according to the rules set up by 'the system' and after presenting all your (still expensive) acquired logged hours be told that you have to do it again.
Of course there is very little stopping people flaunting 'the rules' after all aerodynamics are not adversely effected by the absence of medical/annual/licence.
FD
I am not aware of any changes to the rules as stated here by others.
See your brave plan here but may be I can inject a little reality check in here.
If you are as you state half way through your PPL you will only have about 23 hours to go or £2300 readies.
To get a C152 onto the Public Transport C of A you will need to fork out dosh (fee for this from the CAA is £400) Dont know the story behind your intended mount but someone must have deemed it more costeffective to let it go from PT to Pvt for a reason (engine hours?)
If we assume that you need another 23 hours to finish your PPL you will have to fork out the following:
Fuel 23hours @ 20 l @ £1 = £460
Engine fund 23 hrs @ £5 = £115
Insurance (higher as for abinitio training lets guestimate 2500 per annum and 250 hours per year so £10 per hour) = £230
Instructor (you will do well to get one freelance for less than £15/h) = £345
Landing fees for circuits and bumps £100
Parking for say 2 months/2 (as your mate will pay half) £100
Cost for annual (again estimate 250 hours per year and £1500 annual) approx £150
So that comes to £1900 before any rectifying work is done on the 152 to get it to PT spec.
If you intend to keep the 152 to let it out to other folks you have no option and going this route is the way forward. If you just want it as a mount for you and your mate Iwould suggest finish off what you are doing at the moment and then take the jump.
What you also may want to consider is waiting to get the PPL and do some flying on different machines before committing some money to this particular machine as you may well find that with another 50 hours under the belt you want to stretch your horizons beyound the 152.
Just my thoughts.
FD
Hi IO540 etc,
I think that it is very easy for the CAA to check against the register the registrations used for your training.
It would be very silly to train not according to the rules set up by 'the system' and after presenting all your (still expensive) acquired logged hours be told that you have to do it again.
Of course there is very little stopping people flaunting 'the rules' after all aerodynamics are not adversely effected by the absence of medical/annual/licence.
FD
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IO540-C4D5D
I can understand well the ecomonics of the aviation business. In some ways it is the same as the industry I am in. I am not saying it is wrong, just trying to get to the detail i.e. is this a safety issue or not. In this case, for the specific example discussed, I don't believe it is a safety issue.
There many ways that I can see to deal with it. Change the category of aircraft, find an instructor who works for "Free", find an instructor who will charge huge fees for ground school but throw in the flying instruction for free. Al these and others must have been used before I am sure.
I will use the group owned aircraft for my training, BUT I will stay on the right side of the law, I haven't got much choice as I don't want to end up in the dock in my own court
Andy
I can understand well the ecomonics of the aviation business. In some ways it is the same as the industry I am in. I am not saying it is wrong, just trying to get to the detail i.e. is this a safety issue or not. In this case, for the specific example discussed, I don't believe it is a safety issue.
There many ways that I can see to deal with it. Change the category of aircraft, find an instructor who works for "Free", find an instructor who will charge huge fees for ground school but throw in the flying instruction for free. Al these and others must have been used before I am sure.
I will use the group owned aircraft for my training, BUT I will stay on the right side of the law, I haven't got much choice as I don't want to end up in the dock in my own court
Andy
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Had you thought about a permit aircraft?
Try this -
http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdf_docs/engin...a_aircraft.pdf
Try this -
http://www.pfa.org.uk/pdf_docs/engin...a_aircraft.pdf
