Reasonable for a C172 share?
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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Reasonable for a C172 share?
I am interested in a share for sale (if the group will have me!) in a Cessna 172 Skyhawk II.
From those of you involved in groups, do the following costs sound reasonable?
£3,000 share price for a 1/13th share
£30 per month fixed charge
£55 per hour wet.
The hourly charge is £5 less than I currently pay to rent a C150 and comparing this to local costs of renting a C172 (around £85-£100 seems typical) the prices seem very realistic.
I understand that the aircraft has around 1,000hrs TT and is an early 1980s model equipped with 4x intercom, VOR, ADF, Mode 2 transponder, full airways instrumentation etc. Having seen the outside of the 'plane (it was locked!) it seems immaculate.
I haven't met with the group yet and so have a few hundred questions still to ask them, but would be interested in opinions from fellow Ppruners with experience of groups.
Thanks!
From those of you involved in groups, do the following costs sound reasonable?
£3,000 share price for a 1/13th share
£30 per month fixed charge
£55 per hour wet.
The hourly charge is £5 less than I currently pay to rent a C150 and comparing this to local costs of renting a C172 (around £85-£100 seems typical) the prices seem very realistic.
I understand that the aircraft has around 1,000hrs TT and is an early 1980s model equipped with 4x intercom, VOR, ADF, Mode 2 transponder, full airways instrumentation etc. Having seen the outside of the 'plane (it was locked!) it seems immaculate.
I haven't met with the group yet and so have a few hundred questions still to ask them, but would be interested in opinions from fellow Ppruners with experience of groups.
Thanks!
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Sounds reasonobubble to me. My old 1967 172 is leased out at a dry rate that makes a reasonable comparison with the sort of costs you're talking about.
Important thing is the state of the group's finances and the personalities in the group - and how you fit with them.
Engine's (roughly) halfway through it's life for a public cat a/c - but if it's on private cat then it can be extended. Ask about their engine kitty and approximate annual hours flown for the a/c - hopefully, they'll be building up a fund at a rate commensurate with both.
Not sure on the engine for this type, but some engines need top overhauls halfway through their life - not as a regulation but as a matter of course as components wear.
Important thing is the state of the group's finances and the personalities in the group - and how you fit with them.
Engine's (roughly) halfway through it's life for a public cat a/c - but if it's on private cat then it can be extended. Ask about their engine kitty and approximate annual hours flown for the a/c - hopefully, they'll be building up a fund at a rate commensurate with both.
Not sure on the engine for this type, but some engines need top overhauls halfway through their life - not as a regulation but as a matter of course as components wear.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Al,
I certainly wouldn't class myself as an expert in this type of aircraft, although I'd guess your numbers sounds reasonable. However, I wonder if a 1/13th share of this type of aircraft is a practical option? The only types which I've seen shared by this many people before are the very slow, often single-seat type of aircraft which no one would ever seriously consider taking any kind of distance. With 13 people in a group, I'd imagine there could be a lot of bad feelings if someone wanted to take the aircraft away for a weekend, or even for a day, from time to time?
FFF
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I certainly wouldn't class myself as an expert in this type of aircraft, although I'd guess your numbers sounds reasonable. However, I wonder if a 1/13th share of this type of aircraft is a practical option? The only types which I've seen shared by this many people before are the very slow, often single-seat type of aircraft which no one would ever seriously consider taking any kind of distance. With 13 people in a group, I'd imagine there could be a lot of bad feelings if someone wanted to take the aircraft away for a weekend, or even for a day, from time to time?
FFF
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Seems like a fair price to me.
I'm in a 172M share, 1973, many more hours TT & similar instrumentation. I effectively pay for my 1/8th share, £83 per month and £49 per hour wet. That does include overpriced hangarage, though.
Do all 13 like to fly at the weekends? Its a big group and availability would be my concern.
Good luck
-bcfc
I'm in a 172M share, 1973, many more hours TT & similar instrumentation. I effectively pay for my 1/8th share, £83 per month and £49 per hour wet. That does include overpriced hangarage, though.
Do all 13 like to fly at the weekends? Its a big group and availability would be my concern.
Good luck
-bcfc
It's not far off what I get for a similar PA28 syndicate. In my experience, the availability is generally far better than intuition would suggest - but take a look at the tech log and booking diary for the last year, that'll give you a pretty fair idea.
Overall, sounds like a slightly above average deal.
G
Overall, sounds like a slightly above average deal.
G
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My early thoughts on this would be that it is probably a C172P and that is in its favour, as the "P" model has a different and better engine than the "N" model, or so I am told. It is all to do with the camshaft, apparently, as that on the "P" model usually lasts for the duration of the engine, whereas I believe they can "go" before on earlier "N" models. Also, TT seems low which might indicate extended periods of inactivity which is not good for an aircraft engine, so some assurances on this aspect of the aircraft might be worth seeking. A new engine is likely to cost in the region of £10,000 and may involve your having to contribute your share if the monthly sub does not already involve a sinking fund for such expenditure.
I bought a 1981 "P" version about a year and half ago with around 6,000 hours for £31,500, but I believe good examples are becoming difficult to come by, so £39,000 may be the current going rate for an excellent low time example.
£55 per hour seems a good rate, but this is before the addition of the monthly sub. I find it costs about £60 per hour to operate, but this will depend on the number of hours flown.
I hope this might help, if only to kick off the dicussion and, of course, a search on PPRuNe may turn up more information.
Best of luck with your investigations and on going negotiations.
I bought a 1981 "P" version about a year and half ago with around 6,000 hours for £31,500, but I believe good examples are becoming difficult to come by, so £39,000 may be the current going rate for an excellent low time example.
£55 per hour seems a good rate, but this is before the addition of the monthly sub. I find it costs about £60 per hour to operate, but this will depend on the number of hours flown.
I hope this might help, if only to kick off the dicussion and, of course, a search on PPRuNe may turn up more information.
Best of luck with your investigations and on going negotiations.
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Thanks folks...
Archard - I believe that it's a C172N.
So far I've only talked to the group 'spokesperson' on the 'phone so I don't have all the answers. But I understand that the group is a mix of retired and working people, some of whom prefer to fly during the week and some of whom prefer weekends.
Sometimes group members do take the a/c away for days or weekends but I need to find out exactly what the rules are for bookings and so on. I gather that members have been known to take trips abroad, so I guess as long as everyone plays by the rules and doesn't abuse their entitlement, everyone can get their fair share of useage. On the other hand, there's no point in my buying a share if I can only use it at inconvenient times.
Obvious advantages of a larger number of group members (aside from reduced initial outlay) is increased utilisation, which brings down the running costs per hour. Apparently the engine had a complete overhaul recently although I'm not sure when the CofA is due - I shall ask - and is about to have it's first 50hr check since the overhaul.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that it has a Garmin GPS (90? - not sure) no-map display type - but apparently this is about to be replaced with a colour moving map display GPS.
The monthly costs include hangarage and insurance plus a proportion of the hourly rate to build up the maintenance fund, but I'd like to see the books to see how much 'rainy day' money is set aside already and how much of the £55/hr goes into it. No landing fees at home base either, which is a bonus (but probably quite common I'd guess?).
The group members include an instructor, who can do the conversion training/revalidations/renewals. The spokesperson implied that the instructor does this for free, but I'd like to speak to him her/her personally and find out if they are truly so generous!
Clearly I will need to ask many questions and get to know the people in the group, as well as the a/c....
Archard - I believe that it's a C172N.
So far I've only talked to the group 'spokesperson' on the 'phone so I don't have all the answers. But I understand that the group is a mix of retired and working people, some of whom prefer to fly during the week and some of whom prefer weekends.
Sometimes group members do take the a/c away for days or weekends but I need to find out exactly what the rules are for bookings and so on. I gather that members have been known to take trips abroad, so I guess as long as everyone plays by the rules and doesn't abuse their entitlement, everyone can get their fair share of useage. On the other hand, there's no point in my buying a share if I can only use it at inconvenient times.
Obvious advantages of a larger number of group members (aside from reduced initial outlay) is increased utilisation, which brings down the running costs per hour. Apparently the engine had a complete overhaul recently although I'm not sure when the CofA is due - I shall ask - and is about to have it's first 50hr check since the overhaul.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that it has a Garmin GPS (90? - not sure) no-map display type - but apparently this is about to be replaced with a colour moving map display GPS.
The monthly costs include hangarage and insurance plus a proportion of the hourly rate to build up the maintenance fund, but I'd like to see the books to see how much 'rainy day' money is set aside already and how much of the £55/hr goes into it. No landing fees at home base either, which is a bonus (but probably quite common I'd guess?).
The group members include an instructor, who can do the conversion training/revalidations/renewals. The spokesperson implied that the instructor does this for free, but I'd like to speak to him her/her personally and find out if they are truly so generous!
Clearly I will need to ask many questions and get to know the people in the group, as well as the a/c....
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I am in a 6 group 1973 Reims C172M with KNS80, 1 x panel mounted GPS, 1 x moving map GPS, VOR, ADF, transponder with Mode C and the figures are:
£1500 Share Price (main owner owns 75% and 5 others own 5% each)
£90 per month fixed cost.
£60 per hour
This includes all all maintenance, 50hr checks, annual checks, hangarage(very expensive!), all fuel, home base landing fees, Jeppensen VFR/IFR subscription, contribution to engine fund, insurance and any other fixed expenses.
Availability is good and booked through a web site which I maintain. Group has been together for about 8 years. I have only been a member for 6 months and am happy so far.
There is a new(ish) book on the market about group ownership by Rod Simpson recently reviewed in AOPA GA magazine. This has good explanantions and tips and hints on things to look for.
£1500 Share Price (main owner owns 75% and 5 others own 5% each)
£90 per month fixed cost.
£60 per hour
This includes all all maintenance, 50hr checks, annual checks, hangarage(very expensive!), all fuel, home base landing fees, Jeppensen VFR/IFR subscription, contribution to engine fund, insurance and any other fixed expenses.
Availability is good and booked through a web site which I maintain. Group has been together for about 8 years. I have only been a member for 6 months and am happy so far.
There is a new(ish) book on the market about group ownership by Rod Simpson recently reviewed in AOPA GA magazine. This has good explanantions and tips and hints on things to look for.
