IFR Routing - UK to France
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IFR Routing - UK to France
I'm planning a flight from EGNT to LFGF (Beaune, France). I'll be flying airways and was wondering at FL075 what sort of routing around the Paris TMA i'm likely to get?
Will be crossing via DVR as I don't like long over water legs, and also it addes very little distance on from EGNT anyway.
Any advice gratefully received!
Regards,
Dean
PS Has anyone been able to get any sense out of the online CFMU flight plan validation system? I can't seem to get to grips with it.
Will be crossing via DVR as I don't like long over water legs, and also it addes very little distance on from EGNT anyway.
Any advice gratefully received!
Regards,
Dean
PS Has anyone been able to get any sense out of the online CFMU flight plan validation system? I can't seem to get to grips with it.
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You wont be able to fly IFR in the continent at FL075 as this is a VFR level (ICAO rules of the air) also make sure you book customs at Beaune or land at a customs airfield before, otherwise you may get a £2000 fine for illegal entry!! Look at Aerad or Jepperson map to get airway routing beware a lot of one way airways in France especially around Paris
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First - FL75 is a VFR level in France. Plan at 70 or 90.
Looking at the straight line routeing I expect your level would probably nicely interfere with TMA arrivals and departures. I'd plan round it rather than plan across and hope. If you've got a Jepp or Aerad manual you'll probably find that there are minimum levels to overfly the TMA anyway - and you won't be anywhere near them I'm afraid.
Looking at the straight line routeing I expect your level would probably nicely interfere with TMA arrivals and departures. I'd plan round it rather than plan across and hope. If you've got a Jepp or Aerad manual you'll probably find that there are minimum levels to overfly the TMA anyway - and you won't be anywhere near them I'm afraid.
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Try FL70 or 90.
The CFMU "test" system works OK once you get the hang of it. It's also possible to "cheat" it, by putting in route sectors based on navaids rather than airways, but that only leads to problems later.
I wouldn't give much chance for a decent routing through the Paris TMA. On the two occasions when I've been in GA aircraft going into Le Bourget below FL100, the routing has been horrible.
I've flown IFR down France, keeping well clear of the Paris TMA, at levels below FL100, and had some very nice direct routings, too. Rouen direct to Angers, for example.
(That was all done legally, with a CAA IR in the right hand seat of the G-reg aircraft. There is a suggestion that an FAA IR is acceptable to the French authorities for flying G-reg and F-reg under IFR in France - confirmation would be nice!).
The CFMU "test" system works OK once you get the hang of it. It's also possible to "cheat" it, by putting in route sectors based on navaids rather than airways, but that only leads to problems later.
I wouldn't give much chance for a decent routing through the Paris TMA. On the two occasions when I've been in GA aircraft going into Le Bourget below FL100, the routing has been horrible.
I've flown IFR down France, keeping well clear of the Paris TMA, at levels below FL100, and had some very nice direct routings, too. Rouen direct to Angers, for example.
(That was all done legally, with a CAA IR in the right hand seat of the G-reg aircraft. There is a suggestion that an FAA IR is acceptable to the French authorities for flying G-reg and F-reg under IFR in France - confirmation would be nice!).
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Okay,
OK, I meant FL070, i've been up for 17 hours so give a guy a break
So - anyone recommend best place to clear customs, where enroute does decent food?
Thanks,
Dean
Keef,
I'm flying an N reg A/C with a FAA ASEL with an I/R so I would hope that would keep the french happy!
How often do they check your paperwork, i.e. your licence?
Dean
OK, I meant FL070, i've been up for 17 hours so give a guy a break
So - anyone recommend best place to clear customs, where enroute does decent food?
Thanks,
Dean
Keef,
I'm flying an N reg A/C with a FAA ASEL with an I/R so I would hope that would keep the french happy!
How often do they check your paperwork, i.e. your licence?
Dean
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Only 17 hours! I'd been in work an hour when you were just getting up 
Avoid the TMA, stop off at Reims Prunay and enjoy the restaurant on the airfield. (Customs available also).
French checks can be never, or all the time. The only certain thing to say is make sure you've got all your paperwork (license etc.) in order just in case.
Avoid the TMA, stop off at Reims Prunay and enjoy the restaurant on the airfield. (Customs available also).
French checks can be never, or all the time. The only certain thing to say is make sure you've got all your paperwork (license etc.) in order just in case.
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Yep, I'll second Reims Prunay. There are many others!
I've been met by the French Police de l'Air a couple of times. I was extremely glad our documents were in order. They checked everything!
N-reg and ASEL/IA should do it - but be sure you have proof with you that VAT has been paid on the aircraft! They might be behaving better over that now, but it was a real pain for N-reg aircraft a while ago.
Customs - I find a fax the day before to one of the many "Customs on request" fields is the easiest way. We've done that often - for example with Rouen (when it was Boos and not Customs), Abbeville, and more recently Calais.
I've been met by the French Police de l'Air a couple of times. I was extremely glad our documents were in order. They checked everything!
N-reg and ASEL/IA should do it - but be sure you have proof with you that VAT has been paid on the aircraft! They might be behaving better over that now, but it was a real pain for N-reg aircraft a while ago.
Customs - I find a fax the day before to one of the many "Customs on request" fields is the easiest way. We've done that often - for example with Rouen (when it was Boos and not Customs), Abbeville, and more recently Calais.
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STurns,
Have a look and see what you think of the following. It takes you just west of EGNM (POL), and east of EGNX along B4, then almost overhead EGGW, east of EGLL (thank god), and gives some breathing space from LFPG, however you may like to modify it as necessary.
It assumes you enter at POL and exit at DJL (18nm from LFGF):
POL B4 DET L613 SOVAT T22 RATUK T13 DIPER B24 NEBRU G40 CTL B13 ARSIL A6 DJL
Just plugged it in to IFPUV and it doesn't like to too much, but a little (
) modification should sort that out. Good luck 
Have a look and see what you think of the following. It takes you just west of EGNM (POL), and east of EGNX along B4, then almost overhead EGGW, east of EGLL (thank god), and gives some breathing space from LFPG, however you may like to modify it as necessary.
It assumes you enter at POL and exit at DJL (18nm from LFGF):
POL B4 DET L613 SOVAT T22 RATUK T13 DIPER B24 NEBRU G40 CTL B13 ARSIL A6 DJL
Just plugged it in to IFPUV and it doesn't like to too much, but a little (
) modification should sort that out. Good luck
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Trying to route through or near the London TMA in an unpressurised aircraft IFR may well result in an unnecessarily long routing.
For that reason, I would suggest that you make your way down to Dover (DVR) off airways exploiting the service that you can get from either London Mil, or the various LARS units, down the East Side of the country. It will also avoid a rather long winded airways join at somewhere like POL hill. Quite slow in a small SEL.
Once approaching DVR Manston will co-ordinate your airways join which will be along the route:
DVR B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL A6 DJL
This is the standard low level routing down to those parts.
This routing passes the CFMU checker without a hitch. OBK!'s route completely disregards the fact that the airways he is using in Northern France are all one way, and pointing North... It would need more than a "little modification" to sort that out...
Prunay is fine for a break (route DVR B3 REM) and has a simple VOR cloudbreak procedure if the weather is a bit iffy. Paperwork inspections in France are not unusual, and often entirely random. I often fly N-Reg and have not been targetted for any particular aircraft inspections. By contrast my licence and passport get looked at perhaps one flight in ten. Better make sure that IR is real and about your person
For that reason, I would suggest that you make your way down to Dover (DVR) off airways exploiting the service that you can get from either London Mil, or the various LARS units, down the East Side of the country. It will also avoid a rather long winded airways join at somewhere like POL hill. Quite slow in a small SEL.
Once approaching DVR Manston will co-ordinate your airways join which will be along the route:
DVR B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL A6 DJL
This is the standard low level routing down to those parts.
This routing passes the CFMU checker without a hitch. OBK!'s route completely disregards the fact that the airways he is using in Northern France are all one way, and pointing North... It would need more than a "little modification" to sort that out...
Prunay is fine for a break (route DVR B3 REM) and has a simple VOR cloudbreak procedure if the weather is a bit iffy. Paperwork inspections in France are not unusual, and often entirely random. I often fly N-Reg and have not been targetted for any particular aircraft inspections. By contrast my licence and passport get looked at perhaps one flight in ten. Better make sure that IR is real and about your person
How about:
[your route to] BKY DCT DET DCT DVR B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL A6 DJL DCT
(which passes IFPUV with DCT GOLES DCT BKY)?
Oh damn it Donks, you've replied too. We're going to have to coordinate our route planning services.
For the UK part, I agree with Donks but if you don't fancy ducking under the TMA I'd suggest a join north of Stansted at FL70 or FL90. That has worked for me before -- I think it was Marham that got me the handover to London.
[your route to] BKY DCT DET DCT DVR B3 VATRI G40 ARSIL A6 DJL DCT
(which passes IFPUV with DCT GOLES DCT BKY)?
Oh damn it Donks, you've replied too. We're going to have to coordinate our route planning services.
For the UK part, I agree with Donks but if you don't fancy ducking under the TMA I'd suggest a join north of Stansted at FL70 or FL90. That has worked for me before -- I think it was Marham that got me the handover to London.
