UK v USA - PPL VFR differences
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Essex, Innit
UK v USA - PPL VFR differences
Dear Board,
I am away to Orlando in a few weeks & intend to hire an aircraft out of Kissimee (having only ever flown in the UK up until now).
Whilst I intend to get as much info out of the school as possible (thinking about spending plenty of time at the school talking to pilots, listening to twr & app and taking a 3 hr check ride) I would be grateful for any info from your experiences that might give me a heads up on the differences between flying in the US & the UK (ATC, radio, protocols and anything else you can think of).
For further info I have an FAA airmans certificate to pick up when I get there & my home airport is ATC controlled (Southend).
Thanks & Regards. Enq.
I am away to Orlando in a few weeks & intend to hire an aircraft out of Kissimee (having only ever flown in the UK up until now).
Whilst I intend to get as much info out of the school as possible (thinking about spending plenty of time at the school talking to pilots, listening to twr & app and taking a 3 hr check ride) I would be grateful for any info from your experiences that might give me a heads up on the differences between flying in the US & the UK (ATC, radio, protocols and anything else you can think of).
For further info I have an FAA airmans certificate to pick up when I get there & my home airport is ATC controlled (Southend).
Thanks & Regards. Enq.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Enq,
You should find your school will teach you everything you need to know during your checkout. Remember, an aeroplane flies exactly the same way whichever side of the Atlantic you happen to be on - it's really no problem!
A few things you might find, though. The radio is generally more informal than it is over here. However, ATC are extremely strict about you reading back "hold short" clearances. Uncontrolled fields don't have their own frequency as they do in the UK, several of them share a frequency (which will quite likely be un-manned), so all calls should be preceded with the name of the airfield to avoid confusion. And they prefer a "45-degree" join rather than the overhead join that we like.
Not sure exactly what the terrain around Orlando is like, but when I flew in Arizona it took a short while to get used to visual navigation. Far few towns and roads, I had to get used to using mountains as my main navigation feature. (Not that there are many mountains around Orlando I don't think - I'm just trying to get across the idea that you might require a slightly different technique to what you're used to).
Generally, flying in the US is hastle-free. No PPR required, no landing fees, very cheap parking fees, you will be welcomed at big international airports (recommend you do this at least once just for the experience!) and even if you're not landing there will usually be a VFR transition route so you can fly overhead. Completely different to the UK! If you're flying at night, you'll find that airports don't just close in the early evening as they do over here, you really can fly to places at night.
Have fun!
FFF
----------------
You should find your school will teach you everything you need to know during your checkout. Remember, an aeroplane flies exactly the same way whichever side of the Atlantic you happen to be on - it's really no problem!
A few things you might find, though. The radio is generally more informal than it is over here. However, ATC are extremely strict about you reading back "hold short" clearances. Uncontrolled fields don't have their own frequency as they do in the UK, several of them share a frequency (which will quite likely be un-manned), so all calls should be preceded with the name of the airfield to avoid confusion. And they prefer a "45-degree" join rather than the overhead join that we like.
Not sure exactly what the terrain around Orlando is like, but when I flew in Arizona it took a short while to get used to visual navigation. Far few towns and roads, I had to get used to using mountains as my main navigation feature. (Not that there are many mountains around Orlando I don't think - I'm just trying to get across the idea that you might require a slightly different technique to what you're used to).
Generally, flying in the US is hastle-free. No PPR required, no landing fees, very cheap parking fees, you will be welcomed at big international airports (recommend you do this at least once just for the experience!) and even if you're not landing there will usually be a VFR transition route so you can fly overhead. Completely different to the UK! If you're flying at night, you'll find that airports don't just close in the early evening as they do over here, you really can fly to places at night.
Have fun!
FFF
----------------
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: London, UK
I would strongly recommend that you buy and read (before you go) a book called "Say Again Please" guide to Radio Communications by Bob Gardner (who frequently posts in the newsgroups). The second edition of this book was recently released. It's published by ASA (www.asa2fly.com) and you can get it from Amazon in the UK, or probably from Transair and others.
This book explains the US airspace and what to say or expect to hear as you encounter the various classes of airspace, arrive or depart, etc. etc. It also incidentally gives you the visibility rules for the classes of airspace.
Remember that the Orlando area is in or under Class Bravo airspace, which is like the Alpha airspace round Heathrow - except that you may enter it with permission :-) A lot of the local area a little further from the main airports still has overlying B airspace beginning at 1600'
ATC is quick, and it helps if you get the feel for what they are likely to be firing at you in advance.
Have a great time. It's wonderful flying in Florida.
This book explains the US airspace and what to say or expect to hear as you encounter the various classes of airspace, arrive or depart, etc. etc. It also incidentally gives you the visibility rules for the classes of airspace.
Remember that the Orlando area is in or under Class Bravo airspace, which is like the Alpha airspace round Heathrow - except that you may enter it with permission :-) A lot of the local area a little further from the main airports still has overlying B airspace beginning at 1600'
ATC is quick, and it helps if you get the feel for what they are likely to be firing at you in advance.
Have a great time. It's wonderful flying in Florida.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,068
Likes: 0
From: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Hi enq. I seem to remember someone saying a while ago that you can listen to ATC live from all around the world and there were quite a few busy airports mentioned in America. I don't have any www's for any of them but I am sure someone here can post a link and you can have a listen when you are on-line for a while before you go. Good luck, let us know how it goes.... 
Here we go, a quick Google search showed loads of pages and this was the first one Live ATC
Here we go, a quick Google search showed loads of pages and this was the first one Live ATC
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Long Beach, CA
I found these ones for you...
AirDeals.com
AcesPilotShop.com
As a flight instructor in really busy and congested airspace, I teach a lot of UK private pilot/students to fly out of Long Beach, CA. The main problem I see is the concept of US Airspace, US Communications, and US regulations. I suggest strongly trying to get ahold of a VFR sectional chart - 1:250000 - of the area you decide to go to; a FAR/AIM...a regulation and Aeronautical Information Manual (procedures); and look for a student pilot glossary, or student pilot handbook, should be available to download online, if not email me, I'll be able to help.
I'm British myself, and can see where the confusion arises. Let me help a little (sorry its so long...I had a lot of coffee):
Airspace (Controlled):
Class A - FL180 to FL600 - you'll never get there and it's IFR only.
Class B - think really really BUSY airports. Examples - Los Angeles Intl., JFK, O'Hare, Miami Intl. etc....the sort of places where you can book a ticket to fly into from the UK.
Class B Airspace provides separation for all aircraft based on weight category....very clever. Therefore, specific instructions are required before entering, which is called an ATC clearance. NEVER enter unless you specifically here the words "N...... you are cleared through Miami's Class B Airspace via...[heading] and .... [altitude]" and always readback for the tape, incase anything happens.
Typically, Class B extends like an upsidedown wedding cake from the surface to 10000' MSL (true altitude) and can extend as far out as 30 NM from the primary airport. - solid blue line on VFR chart.
Airports are best avoided unless you are accompanied by an Instructor or a really ballsy private pilot (except Las Vegas and San Diego who from experience who happen to be very accomodating.)......its ok to be a little scared of Class B airports.
Other restrictions apply also...a transponder with altitude encoding - within 30NM. - thin magenta line on chart
Class C - think COMMUNICATE or COMMUTER airports like Gatwick, Stansted, Aldergrove, Birmingham etc....in other words 'regional' airports, that have a substantial number of Airline slots. Jacksonville in FL is an example that I can think of.
Typical dimensions include an inner surface area - 5NM; a shelf area - additional 5NM radius; and an outer radar service area extending to 20NM radius. The first two are mandatory (and marked on a chart by a thick magenta line) to communicate with the approach controller prior to entry and extend to 5000' above the airport's elevation.
Nothing to be scared of here but a little bit of intimidation is understandable, due to the communication. These airports will always offer basic radar service - separation of all aircraft.
Mode C is required again, inside and above, however a 'clearance' is not - but it is mandatory to contact them prior to entry with your callsign, aircraft type and equipment suffix, position, altitude and request (inbound, or 'flight following' - radar service)
Class D - think DIALOGUE of airports like Brize Norton, and Biggin Hill, etc. where there are limited jet traffic, but mostly General Aviation. These will always have a control tower, which may close during anti-socialable hours. (the airport usually remains open)
Surface area usually extending 5 Statute miles (unusual SM) and up to usually 2500' above airport elevation.
Communication with ATC is required prior to entry, and there is no specific equipment requirements other than a radio. Marked on chart by a thin, dashed blue line.
All of above airports will be coloured blue on a VFR chart to show they are controlled by ATC
Class E - Think of all other controlled airspace that exists in a lot of places, and is marked by different, sometimes confusing manners.
Generally - will include all areas that ATC feel obiged to provide separation for IFR traffic in IMC. Otherwise during VMC flying VFR, it is not an issue at all.
For example - Federal Airways - "Victor airways" are always 'controlled' from 1200' AGL to 17999' MSL (True Altitude) and are 4 NM from centerline - you can fly along these VFR unlike in UK
Over the 48 States excluding Alaska, and Hawaii it will always be there at 14,500' MSL - to provide transition for IFR aircraft transitioning to/from Class A
Some non-towered airports will have Class E surrounding them - again to allow IFR approaches into them during IMC- starting either at 1200'AGL, 700' AGL, or from the surface - marked with a faded thick blue line, faded think magenta line, or a thin dashed magenta line.
Airspace (Uncontrolled):
Class G: NON-GOVERNED sometimes refered to as 'GOOD' airspace, as there are few restrictions, and plenty of freedoms etc.etc. This will exist surrounding some non-towered airports from the surface to overlying airspace - there isn't really a whole lot else, unless you want to fly pretty low to the ground!
The main difference between E and G, is that in G airspace ATC cannot issue IFR clearances, and therefore has no authority. Basically its the airspace that the ATC guys don't want. The weather minimums can be frighteningly low - for example 1SM vis, and clear of clouds in one example.
Airspace (Special Use - Govt.)
Prohibited P-## avoid at all costs unless you want to get up close and personal with the presidents personal F16, or attack helicopter....surrounds whitehouse, etc areas of permanent national security interests
Restricted R-#### generally good idea to avoid these area's also, as there are plenty of invisable hazards...ie bullets and bombs etc. You can under some circumstances go through them...I believe it's like a military zone/ danger zone...can be hot or cold.
Warning W-#### same as above, except you will always see them over the ocean, as the Penthouse aren't allowed to deem it restriced.
Alert Areas A-#### - think of 19 year old student pilot's with Ramjet technology courtesy of Uncle Sam - be vigilant in these areas - I think Pensacola Fl has a few, from memory.
All of above will be marked on chart with a Blue-hatched outlined box.
Military Operating Areas MOA - you can fly through these but certain hazards will exist...such as low flying camoflagued aircraft, paratroopers, etc. Best to avoid if unsure, but there will definately not be any live ammunition, missiles, or bombs going off.
This is similar marking except it is magenta in colour.
Other special use areas incluse Controlled Firing Areas, not too many of those - the Arty will stop for you, therefore no hazard - National Security Areas - temporary, similar to the Royal Family visiting somewhere, except it can be voluntary or prohibited. . And Temporary Flight Restriction - found particularly around large groups of people - sports events etc. Find out from the Weather Briefer where these are.
Airspace (Other):
Terminal Radar Service Area: TRSA (tersa) very much like a mix of Class B, and Class C airspace, except main difference is that it is completely voluntary, and no equipment is required to enter or transit...offers Radar Service.
Commuications:
Generally speaking, not so anal here as you are in the UK. Used like a telephone with the odd roger, wilco, contact, negative, unable, and affirm, thrown in there for fun.
RT generally speaking, is simple...facility addressing, Aircraft type and N# (skip the 'november') where you are - position and altitude (try to use airports or navaids as a reference), and what you want to do followed by any remarks.
For example:
You: "Daytona approach, Cessna 45632, request..."
them: " Cessna 45632...say request (sometimes 'go ahead')"
You: "approach, cessna 45632 is a cessna 172 slant uniform, 3 miles south of Gainesville VOR, at 3500 feet, inbound for Daytona, with numbers, request flight following"
Them: "Roger, Squawk 2345" "Cessna 632 radar contact..say altitude"
you: "3600 for 5500 cessna 632"
ETC,ETC
The best advice I can give is to be aggressive, tell 'em what the hell you want him to do for you!
Regulations:
The same intent as JAA regs but a few differences...including:
VFR Altitudes - 0-179 Odd thousand +500'; 180-359 Even thousand +500'. (IFR aircraft have drop the 500')
Right of way rules are the same.
Alcohol - 0.08% BAC; 8 hours.
You will be restricted as per your JAA/CAA licence so you may not be able to fly at night, IMC rating will not be recognised.
However, you can fly above a deck of clouds.
Documents on an aircraft - AROW - Airworthiness Cert. Registration Cert. Operating Limitations. Weight and Balance sheet.
Airworthiness Requirements - Annual, 100 hour Inspection (if you hire a pilot to fly with you), Emergency Locator Transmtter Inspection, Pitot-Static Inspection, Transponder Inspection - find these in aircraft logbooks...ask to see them.
SVFR - refers to rules governining flights in weather below basic VFR (3SM 1000ft ceiling) for controlled airports - WX can be as low as 1SM vis, and ceiling can be lower than 1000ft, however you must remain clear of clouds. Pilot must initiate request for this, and controller will issue specific departure instructions, much like an IFR departure clearance.
There are plenty others as well, but can't think to list them.
Hope this has helped you out a bit and if you have any questions at all regarding flying in the US let me know, and I'll try to help.
Enjoy FL...even though it's all swamp, flatlands with featurless terrain...and hope to see you in CA sometime soon
Peter
[ref. bookworms posting, corrected so as not to look foolish!]
AirDeals.com
AcesPilotShop.com
As a flight instructor in really busy and congested airspace, I teach a lot of UK private pilot/students to fly out of Long Beach, CA. The main problem I see is the concept of US Airspace, US Communications, and US regulations. I suggest strongly trying to get ahold of a VFR sectional chart - 1:250000 - of the area you decide to go to; a FAR/AIM...a regulation and Aeronautical Information Manual (procedures); and look for a student pilot glossary, or student pilot handbook, should be available to download online, if not email me, I'll be able to help.
I'm British myself, and can see where the confusion arises. Let me help a little (sorry its so long...I had a lot of coffee):
Airspace (Controlled):
Class A - FL180 to FL600 - you'll never get there and it's IFR only.
Class B - think really really BUSY airports. Examples - Los Angeles Intl., JFK, O'Hare, Miami Intl. etc....the sort of places where you can book a ticket to fly into from the UK.
Class B Airspace provides separation for all aircraft based on weight category....very clever. Therefore, specific instructions are required before entering, which is called an ATC clearance. NEVER enter unless you specifically here the words "N...... you are cleared through Miami's Class B Airspace via...[heading] and .... [altitude]" and always readback for the tape, incase anything happens.
Typically, Class B extends like an upsidedown wedding cake from the surface to 10000' MSL (true altitude) and can extend as far out as 30 NM from the primary airport. - solid blue line on VFR chart.
Airports are best avoided unless you are accompanied by an Instructor or a really ballsy private pilot (except Las Vegas and San Diego who from experience who happen to be very accomodating.)......its ok to be a little scared of Class B airports.
Other restrictions apply also...a transponder with altitude encoding - within 30NM. - thin magenta line on chart
Class C - think COMMUNICATE or COMMUTER airports like Gatwick, Stansted, Aldergrove, Birmingham etc....in other words 'regional' airports, that have a substantial number of Airline slots. Jacksonville in FL is an example that I can think of.
Typical dimensions include an inner surface area - 5NM; a shelf area - additional 5NM radius; and an outer radar service area extending to 20NM radius. The first two are mandatory (and marked on a chart by a thick magenta line) to communicate with the approach controller prior to entry and extend to 5000' above the airport's elevation.
Nothing to be scared of here but a little bit of intimidation is understandable, due to the communication. These airports will always offer basic radar service - separation of all aircraft.
Mode C is required again, inside and above, however a 'clearance' is not - but it is mandatory to contact them prior to entry with your callsign, aircraft type and equipment suffix, position, altitude and request (inbound, or 'flight following' - radar service)
Class D - think DIALOGUE of airports like Brize Norton, and Biggin Hill, etc. where there are limited jet traffic, but mostly General Aviation. These will always have a control tower, which may close during anti-socialable hours. (the airport usually remains open)
Surface area usually extending 5 Statute miles (unusual SM) and up to usually 2500' above airport elevation.
Communication with ATC is required prior to entry, and there is no specific equipment requirements other than a radio. Marked on chart by a thin, dashed blue line.
All of above airports will be coloured blue on a VFR chart to show they are controlled by ATC
Class E - Think of all other controlled airspace that exists in a lot of places, and is marked by different, sometimes confusing manners.
Generally - will include all areas that ATC feel obiged to provide separation for IFR traffic in IMC. Otherwise during VMC flying VFR, it is not an issue at all.
For example - Federal Airways - "Victor airways" are always 'controlled' from 1200' AGL to 17999' MSL (True Altitude) and are 4 NM from centerline - you can fly along these VFR unlike in UK
Over the 48 States excluding Alaska, and Hawaii it will always be there at 14,500' MSL - to provide transition for IFR aircraft transitioning to/from Class A
Some non-towered airports will have Class E surrounding them - again to allow IFR approaches into them during IMC- starting either at 1200'AGL, 700' AGL, or from the surface - marked with a faded thick blue line, faded think magenta line, or a thin dashed magenta line.
Airspace (Uncontrolled):
Class G: NON-GOVERNED sometimes refered to as 'GOOD' airspace, as there are few restrictions, and plenty of freedoms etc.etc. This will exist surrounding some non-towered airports from the surface to overlying airspace - there isn't really a whole lot else, unless you want to fly pretty low to the ground!
The main difference between E and G, is that in G airspace ATC cannot issue IFR clearances, and therefore has no authority. Basically its the airspace that the ATC guys don't want. The weather minimums can be frighteningly low - for example 1SM vis, and clear of clouds in one example.
Airspace (Special Use - Govt.)
Prohibited P-## avoid at all costs unless you want to get up close and personal with the presidents personal F16, or attack helicopter....surrounds whitehouse, etc areas of permanent national security interests
Restricted R-#### generally good idea to avoid these area's also, as there are plenty of invisable hazards...ie bullets and bombs etc. You can under some circumstances go through them...I believe it's like a military zone/ danger zone...can be hot or cold.
Warning W-#### same as above, except you will always see them over the ocean, as the Penthouse aren't allowed to deem it restriced.
Alert Areas A-#### - think of 19 year old student pilot's with Ramjet technology courtesy of Uncle Sam - be vigilant in these areas - I think Pensacola Fl has a few, from memory.
All of above will be marked on chart with a Blue-hatched outlined box.
Military Operating Areas MOA - you can fly through these but certain hazards will exist...such as low flying camoflagued aircraft, paratroopers, etc. Best to avoid if unsure, but there will definately not be any live ammunition, missiles, or bombs going off.
This is similar marking except it is magenta in colour.
Other special use areas incluse Controlled Firing Areas, not too many of those - the Arty will stop for you, therefore no hazard - National Security Areas - temporary, similar to the Royal Family visiting somewhere, except it can be voluntary or prohibited. . And Temporary Flight Restriction - found particularly around large groups of people - sports events etc. Find out from the Weather Briefer where these are.
Airspace (Other):
Terminal Radar Service Area: TRSA (tersa) very much like a mix of Class B, and Class C airspace, except main difference is that it is completely voluntary, and no equipment is required to enter or transit...offers Radar Service.
Commuications:
Generally speaking, not so anal here as you are in the UK. Used like a telephone with the odd roger, wilco, contact, negative, unable, and affirm, thrown in there for fun.
RT generally speaking, is simple...facility addressing, Aircraft type and N# (skip the 'november') where you are - position and altitude (try to use airports or navaids as a reference), and what you want to do followed by any remarks.
For example:
You: "Daytona approach, Cessna 45632, request..."
them: " Cessna 45632...say request (sometimes 'go ahead')"
You: "approach, cessna 45632 is a cessna 172 slant uniform, 3 miles south of Gainesville VOR, at 3500 feet, inbound for Daytona, with numbers, request flight following"
Them: "Roger, Squawk 2345" "Cessna 632 radar contact..say altitude"
you: "3600 for 5500 cessna 632"
ETC,ETC
The best advice I can give is to be aggressive, tell 'em what the hell you want him to do for you!
Regulations:
The same intent as JAA regs but a few differences...including:
VFR Altitudes - 0-179 Odd thousand +500'; 180-359 Even thousand +500'. (IFR aircraft have drop the 500')
Right of way rules are the same.
Alcohol - 0.08% BAC; 8 hours.
You will be restricted as per your JAA/CAA licence so you may not be able to fly at night, IMC rating will not be recognised.
However, you can fly above a deck of clouds.
Documents on an aircraft - AROW - Airworthiness Cert. Registration Cert. Operating Limitations. Weight and Balance sheet.
Airworthiness Requirements - Annual, 100 hour Inspection (if you hire a pilot to fly with you), Emergency Locator Transmtter Inspection, Pitot-Static Inspection, Transponder Inspection - find these in aircraft logbooks...ask to see them.
SVFR - refers to rules governining flights in weather below basic VFR (3SM 1000ft ceiling) for controlled airports - WX can be as low as 1SM vis, and ceiling can be lower than 1000ft, however you must remain clear of clouds. Pilot must initiate request for this, and controller will issue specific departure instructions, much like an IFR departure clearance.
There are plenty others as well, but can't think to list them.
Hope this has helped you out a bit and if you have any questions at all regarding flying in the US let me know, and I'll try to help.
Enjoy FL...even though it's all swamp, flatlands with featurless terrain...and hope to see you in CA sometime soon
Peter
[ref. bookworms posting, corrected so as not to look foolish!]
Last edited by Long Beach CFII; 6th March 2003 at 15:02.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Peter,
Excellent post - definitely one worth book-marking. A couple of things I'd have added, from my own experience:
- Class B VFR transitions (no equivalent in the UK)
- Seperation. As you say, you will be separated in Class B. In Class C, you will be seperated from IFR traffic only. In Class D, VFR traffic is not seperated from any other traffic. (These are ICAO rules, and apply to Class B/C/D anywhere in the world.)
- I used to treat Class E airspace as uncontrolled, open airspace when I flew there, even though I know that's not technically true. (Different mentality to Class E in Europe, where Class E is used for airfield control areas, so although no radio communication is required for VFR flight in Class E, it would be bad airmanship not to talk to someone.)
The only thing you say which I disagree with is "you can fly above a deck of clouds". You will be restricted according to the privileges of your JAR license. Since your JAR license doesn't allow you to fly out of sight of the surface, my understanding is that your FAA license won't allow that either. Even if it did, I think you'd be foolish to do so with the 1/2-hour or so of navigation-aid training which you probably had for your PPL.
FFF
---------------
Excellent post - definitely one worth book-marking. A couple of things I'd have added, from my own experience:
- Class B VFR transitions (no equivalent in the UK)
- Seperation. As you say, you will be separated in Class B. In Class C, you will be seperated from IFR traffic only. In Class D, VFR traffic is not seperated from any other traffic. (These are ICAO rules, and apply to Class B/C/D anywhere in the world.)
- I used to treat Class E airspace as uncontrolled, open airspace when I flew there, even though I know that's not technically true. (Different mentality to Class E in Europe, where Class E is used for airfield control areas, so although no radio communication is required for VFR flight in Class E, it would be bad airmanship not to talk to someone.)
The only thing you say which I disagree with is "you can fly above a deck of clouds". You will be restricted according to the privileges of your JAR license. Since your JAR license doesn't allow you to fly out of sight of the surface, my understanding is that your FAA license won't allow that either. Even if it did, I think you'd be foolish to do so with the 1/2-hour or so of navigation-aid training which you probably had for your PPL.
FFF
---------------
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Long Beach, CA
FFF
Upon reflection of the Regs, and coming down off my caffiene-induced soap-box, you rightly pointed out my self-contradiction.
You would be restricted to you're original license limitations.
VFR transitions through Class B airspace are established routes that can be requested and most likely issued to a VFR pilot, however, you are not required to use them soley...and ATC are also not required to clear you through Bravo either! From My experience they tell you what to expect from ATC and are useful for planning purposes, and to avoid an unnecessary trip around the Class B surface area.
Other examples of Class B transitions, would include a 'VFR-corridor' - eg. San Diego. This is basically a chunk of airspace that is surrounded by Class B although technically Class E airspace.
If a corridor cannot be approved for whatever reason, then a Special Flight Rules Area - SFRA - might exist instead be eg. Los Angeles....in this particular case, no ATC clearance is required to be received over the radio, as all the elements of a clearance are already printed on the Terminal Area Chart (1:125000) - a must for navigating around Class B.
In Class C airspace, IFR to IFR is separated, IFR to VFR is separated, and VFR traffic advisories are on a workload permitting basis, technically speaking, again FFF was correct. While in the shelf or inner areas participation is mandatory for all aircraft.
As FFF states most people will treat class E as uncontrolled, and there is no equipment requirements, under 10000'MSL, and as a result there is no communication requirements also, it just ensures that there is no-one playing amongst the clouds without ATC knowing about it. Like a security blanket for them. During VMC, or severe-clear days, it doesn't really matter.
One more major difference is the amount of VORs that you will find in the US. On one hand the FAA pilots are really proficient at using them (generally speaking) but know absolutely nothing about how they work, and on the other, the JAA pilots can explain how they work at a CFI level (certified flight instructor, not chief flight instructor!!) but are uncomfortable when it comes to using them.
From chatting to my students who fly in europe primarily, or who were trained in europe, the weather reports etc, are much easier to read in the US, and infact, conveniently enough for the lazy americans, can be found on the internet in plain english, or if you can't get your ass over to the computer, then simply call a Flight Service Station, and for no charge, a body at the end of the phone can read and interpret them for you. Just call 1-800 WX BRIEF. You can also file flight plans with them as well...again if you could be bothered!
Peter
Upon reflection of the Regs, and coming down off my caffiene-induced soap-box, you rightly pointed out my self-contradiction.
You would be restricted to you're original license limitations.
VFR transitions through Class B airspace are established routes that can be requested and most likely issued to a VFR pilot, however, you are not required to use them soley...and ATC are also not required to clear you through Bravo either! From My experience they tell you what to expect from ATC and are useful for planning purposes, and to avoid an unnecessary trip around the Class B surface area.
Other examples of Class B transitions, would include a 'VFR-corridor' - eg. San Diego. This is basically a chunk of airspace that is surrounded by Class B although technically Class E airspace.
If a corridor cannot be approved for whatever reason, then a Special Flight Rules Area - SFRA - might exist instead be eg. Los Angeles....in this particular case, no ATC clearance is required to be received over the radio, as all the elements of a clearance are already printed on the Terminal Area Chart (1:125000) - a must for navigating around Class B.
In Class C airspace, IFR to IFR is separated, IFR to VFR is separated, and VFR traffic advisories are on a workload permitting basis, technically speaking, again FFF was correct. While in the shelf or inner areas participation is mandatory for all aircraft.
As FFF states most people will treat class E as uncontrolled, and there is no equipment requirements, under 10000'MSL, and as a result there is no communication requirements also, it just ensures that there is no-one playing amongst the clouds without ATC knowing about it. Like a security blanket for them. During VMC, or severe-clear days, it doesn't really matter.
One more major difference is the amount of VORs that you will find in the US. On one hand the FAA pilots are really proficient at using them (generally speaking) but know absolutely nothing about how they work, and on the other, the JAA pilots can explain how they work at a CFI level (certified flight instructor, not chief flight instructor!!) but are uncomfortable when it comes to using them.
From chatting to my students who fly in europe primarily, or who were trained in europe, the weather reports etc, are much easier to read in the US, and infact, conveniently enough for the lazy americans, can be found on the internet in plain english, or if you can't get your ass over to the computer, then simply call a Flight Service Station, and for no charge, a body at the end of the phone can read and interpret them for you. Just call 1-800 WX BRIEF. You can also file flight plans with them as well...again if you could be bothered!
Peter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,648
Likes: 2
From: UK
Class C - think COMMUNICATE or COMMUTER airports like Gatwick, Prestwick, Aldergrove etc....in other words 'regional' airports, that have a substantial number of Airline slots...
Class D - think DIALOGUE of airports like Brize Norton, and Biggin Hill, Stanstead etc. where there are limited jet traffic, but mostly General Aviation.
Class D - think DIALOGUE of airports like Brize Norton, and Biggin Hill, Stanstead etc. where there are limited jet traffic, but mostly General Aviation.
Stansted handled some 12,000 air transport movements in 2001 with 1.2 million passengers. GA doesn't get a look in. Prestwick (which doesn't even have controlled airspace now) managed just 10% of that.
Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Newcastle, Birmingham and Manchester would all be candidates for class B in the US, based on passenger numbers.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
From: Kandahar Afghanistan
ENQ,
The Orlando area is flat and in the sping subject to occasional thunderstorms, to find any hilly areas you need to fly north toward Georgia.
The big thing about flying in Florida is to watch out for the various military operations areas, C172's and F16's DO NOT mix well.
As for ATC communications you can get onto the National Air Traffic Controllers Web Site and find several links to listen to ATC talking to live traffic (http://www.natca.org ). Chicago Approach is on live and is always interesting to listen to.
You will find flying over here to be less restrictive than the UK, and communications will be similar. We have a flight school in Battlecreek Michigan that trains foreign pilots and I've found the majority of them easy to understand and good to work with.
Mike
NATCA FWA
The Orlando area is flat and in the sping subject to occasional thunderstorms, to find any hilly areas you need to fly north toward Georgia.
The big thing about flying in Florida is to watch out for the various military operations areas, C172's and F16's DO NOT mix well.
As for ATC communications you can get onto the National Air Traffic Controllers Web Site and find several links to listen to ATC talking to live traffic (http://www.natca.org ). Chicago Approach is on live and is always interesting to listen to.
You will find flying over here to be less restrictive than the UK, and communications will be similar. We have a flight school in Battlecreek Michigan that trains foreign pilots and I've found the majority of them easy to understand and good to work with.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 487
Likes: 0
From: Daventry UK
Peter
Wonderful Post! Perhaps your post should be a 'sticky' - a lot of UK PPL's will be planning US adventures right now.
I wonder if you could explain what to expect from 'flight following'. On the occasions that I have used it, they have said nothing from beginning to end. Of course it is good to know you are in touch with someone in harsh terrain like the SW.
Regarding "You would be restricted to you're original license limitations." this is definitely the received wisdom (and probably good sense). But is it strictly correct? For instance, the UK IMC is not recognised in US, but would it permit a UK pilot with current IMC to legally fly VFR on top? Legal with whom? The FAA don't seem to make any stipulations and their certificate says "has been found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of Private Pilot", presumably according to the US definition of a private licence. US controllers would not be too impressed if you refused a 45 join because "all turns must be made in the direction of the circuit".
Any UK pilot flying solo in the US will have completed an FAA BFR which includes knowledge of the rules as applied to US pilots, including things like VFR on top and I suspect much else that's subtly different. As an example, what about the SVFR visibilities you mentioned? They are lower than you could legally use in UK.
I suppose the answer must always be the most restrictive of the possibilities, but we live in hope! Anyway, thanks for your advice.
David
Wonderful Post! Perhaps your post should be a 'sticky' - a lot of UK PPL's will be planning US adventures right now.
I wonder if you could explain what to expect from 'flight following'. On the occasions that I have used it, they have said nothing from beginning to end. Of course it is good to know you are in touch with someone in harsh terrain like the SW.
Regarding "You would be restricted to you're original license limitations." this is definitely the received wisdom (and probably good sense). But is it strictly correct? For instance, the UK IMC is not recognised in US, but would it permit a UK pilot with current IMC to legally fly VFR on top? Legal with whom? The FAA don't seem to make any stipulations and their certificate says "has been found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of Private Pilot", presumably according to the US definition of a private licence. US controllers would not be too impressed if you refused a 45 join because "all turns must be made in the direction of the circuit".
Any UK pilot flying solo in the US will have completed an FAA BFR which includes knowledge of the rules as applied to US pilots, including things like VFR on top and I suspect much else that's subtly different. As an example, what about the SVFR visibilities you mentioned? They are lower than you could legally use in UK.
I suppose the answer must always be the most restrictive of the possibilities, but we live in hope! Anyway, thanks for your advice.
David
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
David,
As a PPL with an IMC rating, you are allowed to fly a G-registered aircraft in IMC in the UK. Outside the UK, you can fly your G-registered aircraft anywhere you like, but only in VMC, and in sight of the surface.
Your FAR license gives you exactly the same priveleges on an N-registered aircraft as your JAR license gives you on a G-registered aircraft. In other words, you may not excercise any of the privileges of your IMC rating outside the UK - and that includes "VFR on top".
At least, that's how I interpret the rules!
FFF
-----------
As a PPL with an IMC rating, you are allowed to fly a G-registered aircraft in IMC in the UK. Outside the UK, you can fly your G-registered aircraft anywhere you like, but only in VMC, and in sight of the surface.
Your FAR license gives you exactly the same priveleges on an N-registered aircraft as your JAR license gives you on a G-registered aircraft. In other words, you may not excercise any of the privileges of your IMC rating outside the UK - and that includes "VFR on top".
At least, that's how I interpret the rules!
FFF
-----------
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Essex, Innit
Thank you all for your extremely informative posts & the care & attention with which they have been written.
I shall inwardly digest over the weekend but did want to ask;
David Viewing
"Any UK pilot flying solo in the US will have completed an FAA BFR which includes knowledge of the rules as applied to US pilots"
My obvious question is "What's a BFR", followed shortly by "Does this apply to a US Private Pilots certificate issued on the basis of a foreign (ie UK) licence"
Long Beach CFII - An excellent, informed & well laid out post - A big thank you - that must have been a monster cup of coffee.
Once again thanks & regards all. Enq.
I shall inwardly digest over the weekend but did want to ask;
David Viewing
"Any UK pilot flying solo in the US will have completed an FAA BFR which includes knowledge of the rules as applied to US pilots"
My obvious question is "What's a BFR", followed shortly by "Does this apply to a US Private Pilots certificate issued on the basis of a foreign (ie UK) licence"
Long Beach CFII - An excellent, informed & well laid out post - A big thank you - that must have been a monster cup of coffee.
Once again thanks & regards all. Enq.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Enq,
To answer your questions (even though they were directed at David!):
BFR = Bi-annual Flight Review (or something like that). Under FARs, you need to fly with an instructor every two years. Your instructor will sign your log-book to show the date of your last BFR.
Yes, you do need one, even if your license is based on a foreign license. But of course no school would rent to you without you having a checkout first, and the checkout can double as your BFR, so it doesn't add anything to the list of things you have to do, except for getting a signature.
FFF
-------------
To answer your questions (even though they were directed at David!):
BFR = Bi-annual Flight Review (or something like that). Under FARs, you need to fly with an instructor every two years. Your instructor will sign your log-book to show the date of your last BFR.
Yes, you do need one, even if your license is based on a foreign license. But of course no school would rent to you without you having a checkout first, and the checkout can double as your BFR, so it doesn't add anything to the list of things you have to do, except for getting a signature.
FFF
-------------
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Long Beach, CA
BFR was actually renamed Flight Review...however is still given bi-annually, and commonly refered to as a BFR
It consists of at least 1 hour of flight, and 1 hour of ground on Federal Aviation Regulations Parts 61, 91, and any other areas the insructor feels are appropriate given the grade of certificate being reviewed. For foreign pilots, emphasis from the instructor should be put on airspace, charts, flight planning as well as basic questions on airplane systems and emergency procedures. No reasonable CFI is going to expect you to know the US regs inside out, but you should be safe, and legal...so ask them to go over them if you are unsure of anything.
I would strongly recommend a FAR/AIM book, the Pilot's Operating Handbook/ Pilot's Information Manual for the aircraft you intend to fly, looking at some local sectional and terminal charts, and also perhaps the ASA Guide to the Flight Review...this lists the questions and answers that commonly pop up.
If the instructor finds you weak in any area, then (s)he can give additional training, either ground or flight or both, until they are satisfied that you have the required knowledge/skill...if you feel that the instructor may be trying to take advantage of you then you can of course request another instructor to do it with you.
The Flight Review is complete only when the instructor signs an endorsement stating that you have satisfactorily completed it.
Think of it as an american skills-test/revalidation.
Peter
It consists of at least 1 hour of flight, and 1 hour of ground on Federal Aviation Regulations Parts 61, 91, and any other areas the insructor feels are appropriate given the grade of certificate being reviewed. For foreign pilots, emphasis from the instructor should be put on airspace, charts, flight planning as well as basic questions on airplane systems and emergency procedures. No reasonable CFI is going to expect you to know the US regs inside out, but you should be safe, and legal...so ask them to go over them if you are unsure of anything.
I would strongly recommend a FAR/AIM book, the Pilot's Operating Handbook/ Pilot's Information Manual for the aircraft you intend to fly, looking at some local sectional and terminal charts, and also perhaps the ASA Guide to the Flight Review...this lists the questions and answers that commonly pop up.
If the instructor finds you weak in any area, then (s)he can give additional training, either ground or flight or both, until they are satisfied that you have the required knowledge/skill...if you feel that the instructor may be trying to take advantage of you then you can of course request another instructor to do it with you.
The Flight Review is complete only when the instructor signs an endorsement stating that you have satisfactorily completed it.
Think of it as an american skills-test/revalidation.
Peter
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: Essex, Innit
Dear all,
Just a quick update since returning home from my trip to Orlando yesterday.
The value of all your informative postings became even more apparent once I arrived at the flight school.
Armed with your suggested research material I realised that my preparation had covered the majority of the BFR ground school requirement and so an hour on Saturday morning saw me demonstrating to my instructor & more importantly to myself that I had picked up the basics for safe flight within the Orlando area.
A break of 3 days ensued as I was unable to pick up my temporary licence (license ?) until the following Tuesday (the FSDO offices, from which I had to pick my licence up in person only allows this from Tues to Thurs incl.).
Tueday morning saw me back at the flight facility (Sunstate avaition, Kissimmee airport, Fl) and ready for a check flight.
The first difference manifested during the walk round was the regulation requiring all drained fuel to be put back into the tanks (or at least not tipped out onto the ground) and with thirteen drain points on the new C172SP this amounts to a reasonable amount of fuel.
The second difference was the age of the aircraft, which, having less than 100 hours on the tach since new came as something of a novelty. Whilst there was (to me) no discernible difference between the handling characteristics of the new US & old UK aircraft there is some comfort to be had from a cockpit environment where everything looks in top condition.
Kissimmee is a tower controlled GA airport and RT for taxi & departure was similiar to what I would expect in the UK with minor differences, ie callsign prefixed with aircraft make, transponder on VFR code (1200) mode C. The only part I struggled to come to terms with was speaking to ground for taxi instructions & then switching to tower for departure clearance - apparently the pilot should just change frequencies without advising or being advised to do so.
Once in the air we headed out in class E airspace (under the class B airspace surrounding Orlando Intl) and did a little nav, handling and general orientation whilst maintaining a listening watch on the radio.
A couple of landings (full flap & flapless) later I was checked out & ready to strike out on my own (I actually chose to go for a cross country with an instructor a couple of days later to bolster my confidence).
All in all a very enjoyable experience in addition to being a cast iron excuse not to drag round the Magic Kingdom - I would thoroughly recommend getting a little flying in if visiting the states this year - it's a cheap, enjoyable and rewarding experience.
Once again my thanks for your postings & thanks to Mike, Steve & Andy at Sunstate avaition for all your help & advice.
Regards all. Enq.
Just a quick update since returning home from my trip to Orlando yesterday.
The value of all your informative postings became even more apparent once I arrived at the flight school.
Armed with your suggested research material I realised that my preparation had covered the majority of the BFR ground school requirement and so an hour on Saturday morning saw me demonstrating to my instructor & more importantly to myself that I had picked up the basics for safe flight within the Orlando area.
A break of 3 days ensued as I was unable to pick up my temporary licence (license ?) until the following Tuesday (the FSDO offices, from which I had to pick my licence up in person only allows this from Tues to Thurs incl.).
Tueday morning saw me back at the flight facility (Sunstate avaition, Kissimmee airport, Fl) and ready for a check flight.
The first difference manifested during the walk round was the regulation requiring all drained fuel to be put back into the tanks (or at least not tipped out onto the ground) and with thirteen drain points on the new C172SP this amounts to a reasonable amount of fuel.
The second difference was the age of the aircraft, which, having less than 100 hours on the tach since new came as something of a novelty. Whilst there was (to me) no discernible difference between the handling characteristics of the new US & old UK aircraft there is some comfort to be had from a cockpit environment where everything looks in top condition.
Kissimmee is a tower controlled GA airport and RT for taxi & departure was similiar to what I would expect in the UK with minor differences, ie callsign prefixed with aircraft make, transponder on VFR code (1200) mode C. The only part I struggled to come to terms with was speaking to ground for taxi instructions & then switching to tower for departure clearance - apparently the pilot should just change frequencies without advising or being advised to do so.
Once in the air we headed out in class E airspace (under the class B airspace surrounding Orlando Intl) and did a little nav, handling and general orientation whilst maintaining a listening watch on the radio.
A couple of landings (full flap & flapless) later I was checked out & ready to strike out on my own (I actually chose to go for a cross country with an instructor a couple of days later to bolster my confidence).
All in all a very enjoyable experience in addition to being a cast iron excuse not to drag round the Magic Kingdom - I would thoroughly recommend getting a little flying in if visiting the states this year - it's a cheap, enjoyable and rewarding experience.
Once again my thanks for your postings & thanks to Mike, Steve & Andy at Sunstate avaition for all your help & advice.
Regards all. Enq.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: London, UK
Enq,
So glad you enjoyed yourself. I hope you had the pleasure of flying along the shoreline, looking at the beaches, condos and hotels.
Can't wait to get out there again - in the summer! Bit hot, but who cares?
Also, glad you found all our comments helpful.
So glad you enjoyed yourself. I hope you had the pleasure of flying along the shoreline, looking at the beaches, condos and hotels.
Can't wait to get out there again - in the summer! Bit hot, but who cares?
Also, glad you found all our comments helpful.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
From: USA
You may want to check out the Aeronautic Information Manual (AIM) at http://www1.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/index.htm and other publications available online. I also think the Orlando TRACON or FSDO have a pretty good web site.
For the Orlando/Kissimmie area I would go west and south and stay away from the Disney stuff (there is a special security temporary flight restriction over it... see NOTAMS) then north to see just country or to the coast for blue water and sky. The local FBO and instructors can advise.
You picked a good time of year and good location. Enjoy.
For the Orlando/Kissimmie area I would go west and south and stay away from the Disney stuff (there is a special security temporary flight restriction over it... see NOTAMS) then north to see just country or to the coast for blue water and sky. The local FBO and instructors can advise.
You picked a good time of year and good location. Enjoy.
