Ejection Seats In Uk Civil Aircraft
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From: North Uist, Outer Hebrides
Ejection Seats In Uk Civil Aircraft
Hi all,
Could anyone tell me the policy on the use of ejection seats in UK registered aircraft? I saw a Jet Provost the other day and the pilot said it didnt have ejection seats fitted, just parachutes.. Surely, this goes against all the principles of getting out pronto in the event of an emergency? Do the CAA let it happen? What training is involved for ejection seats?
Could anyone tell me the policy on the use of ejection seats in UK registered aircraft? I saw a Jet Provost the other day and the pilot said it didnt have ejection seats fitted, just parachutes.. Surely, this goes against all the principles of getting out pronto in the event of an emergency? Do the CAA let it happen? What training is involved for ejection seats?
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From: London
I don't know if there is any CAA 'policy' re ejection seats in privately owner ex-mil jets. I think the issue is dealt with on a case by case basis. eg I flew an L39 Albatross recently which had bang seats.
The balance of safety may not be quite as clear as it seems at first blush. In theory, a quick exit is safer, but the maintenance and operation of ejection seats is not without its own problems and safety implications.
Tudor Owen
The balance of safety may not be quite as clear as it seems at first blush. In theory, a quick exit is safer, but the maintenance and operation of ejection seats is not without its own problems and safety implications.
Tudor Owen
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 26th February 2003 at 10:05.
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From: Dorset
Just so happened that at LHR on my way out to Germany last week, I bought a copy of Today's Pilot (which is not my normal mag, but thought I'd check it out!).
In this, there was a discussion on the current CAA position re: ejector seats. I don't have the magazine with me today, so I'm talking from possibly faulty memory here.
Essentially, I believe the CAA haven't really come out with any firm regulation regarding the fitting (and to some extent, more importantly, the maintenance and certification) of bang seats. It seems to be generally accepted that in Hunters, they are a 'good idea' but not mandatory. For lower performance aircraft, such as the JP, there seems to be a move towards mandatory removal of the seats, on the basis that use / maintenance of them by improperly trained personnel could reduce rather than increase personal safety. However, reading between the lines, there appears to be a degree of 'fence sitting' as a firm decision either way leads someone in the CAA liable to answer a lot of awkward questions if a positive policy is established and someone comes to grief as a result.
Fitment of seats in a JP is certainly not manadatory at the moment as I understand the article, however, IMHO it is a jolly good idea for personnel who are likely to be able to use them correctly and if they are to be correctly serviced.
In this, there was a discussion on the current CAA position re: ejector seats. I don't have the magazine with me today, so I'm talking from possibly faulty memory here.
Essentially, I believe the CAA haven't really come out with any firm regulation regarding the fitting (and to some extent, more importantly, the maintenance and certification) of bang seats. It seems to be generally accepted that in Hunters, they are a 'good idea' but not mandatory. For lower performance aircraft, such as the JP, there seems to be a move towards mandatory removal of the seats, on the basis that use / maintenance of them by improperly trained personnel could reduce rather than increase personal safety. However, reading between the lines, there appears to be a degree of 'fence sitting' as a firm decision either way leads someone in the CAA liable to answer a lot of awkward questions if a positive policy is established and someone comes to grief as a result.
Fitment of seats in a JP is certainly not manadatory at the moment as I understand the article, however, IMHO it is a jolly good idea for personnel who are likely to be able to use them correctly and if they are to be correctly serviced.
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From: 1060 West Addison
some may remember the fatal L39 accident at duxford last summer. pilot ejected and was fatally injured, instructor stayed put and walked away. one problem would seem that the average ppl isn't trained (although is prob briefed) on how and when to use them. another is that live ones in crashed aircraft pose significant risk to emergency personnel and accident investigators.
on the other hand, if things did go pete tong while airborne in a hunter/jp/aerovodochody etc, i'd rather just pull the handle and let the accident occur a considerable distance away.
regards, BGPM.
on the other hand, if things did go pete tong while airborne in a hunter/jp/aerovodochody etc, i'd rather just pull the handle and let the accident occur a considerable distance away.
regards, BGPM.
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From: (LFA 7a)
The wonderful website (even if I do say so myself) www.ejectorseats.co.uk
gives a lot of information regarding this issue.
gives a lot of information regarding this issue.
Thread Starter
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From: North Uist, Outer Hebrides
Thanks to everyone who's provided info. What I was looking for was what determines wheher a jet has a live seat or not? If it was deemed suitable to have ejection seats in service, then why do civilian owners remove them? And also, who trains pilots from civilian backgrounds to use them safely? Or is it just passed on from pilot to pilot.
How easy is it to run a jet under the civilian register?
How easy is it to run a jet under the civilian register?
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From: near an aeroplane
Interesting question: what about them?
Right now I would agree with the 'case by case' approach as each case will be different. As mentioned already the specific type flown is a thing to consider. Can the aircraft somehow be saved when engines fail, or with elec/hydraulic failures? If the aircraft possesses a failure mode which could render it uncontrollable then a 'way out' is surely not too much to ask? (please note: I'd like to leave the question of whether such an aircraft should be flown out of this discussion)
Another issue though would be pilot proficiency. Pilots with military backgrounds will be more familiar with the risks and issues surrounding bangseats, as opposed to pilots who end up on a jet from a PPL/GA background. A pilot sitting in a bangseat should be intimitely familiar with the seat/aircraft envelope, giving him the option to evaluate when to use or not to use that yellow lever. Training for this would be needed!
And the third issue is of course how to maintain that seat. I think that stringent rules for this are a must and the task should be dealt with by a certified professional.
Just my two cents.
Right now I would agree with the 'case by case' approach as each case will be different. As mentioned already the specific type flown is a thing to consider. Can the aircraft somehow be saved when engines fail, or with elec/hydraulic failures? If the aircraft possesses a failure mode which could render it uncontrollable then a 'way out' is surely not too much to ask? (please note: I'd like to leave the question of whether such an aircraft should be flown out of this discussion)
Another issue though would be pilot proficiency. Pilots with military backgrounds will be more familiar with the risks and issues surrounding bangseats, as opposed to pilots who end up on a jet from a PPL/GA background. A pilot sitting in a bangseat should be intimitely familiar with the seat/aircraft envelope, giving him the option to evaluate when to use or not to use that yellow lever. Training for this would be needed!
And the third issue is of course how to maintain that seat. I think that stringent rules for this are a must and the task should be dealt with by a certified professional.
Just my two cents.
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From: UK
A few points to consider:
1. If an aircraft was designed to have an ejector seat, the canopy opening mechanism and/or the space available once it is open may not be suitable for a bail-out with a manually opened parachute. The Jet Provost Mk 3 & 4 has an entirely different canopy to the Mk 5/5A. I believe that there are many Mk 3s and 4s operated with inhibited seats but with the option of a manual bail out. However, the Mk 5 canopy set-up is not conducive to a manual bail-out and I would not fly one without live seats (although I believe that they do in the USA).
2. If you do not have live seats and you have an engine failure below a sensible bail-out height (around 1500 ft), you are committed to a forced landing. Do you want to try to land a heavy aircraft with a high glide threshold speed in a field? The training for all ejection seat aircraft is that you do not forced-land off a runway; you eject (even in the Tucano which is a similar AUW and threshold speed to many warbirds).
3. The big benefit of a military background when flying these aircraft is that you know when to activate the maxim "Eject in time". In the Hunter accident at Dunsfold the pilot did not.
4. If anyone is going to quote statistics on successful ejections, please qualify these with whether or not they were made inside the safe ejection envelope. It is important that we differentiate between pilot decision making and seat reliability.
1. If an aircraft was designed to have an ejector seat, the canopy opening mechanism and/or the space available once it is open may not be suitable for a bail-out with a manually opened parachute. The Jet Provost Mk 3 & 4 has an entirely different canopy to the Mk 5/5A. I believe that there are many Mk 3s and 4s operated with inhibited seats but with the option of a manual bail out. However, the Mk 5 canopy set-up is not conducive to a manual bail-out and I would not fly one without live seats (although I believe that they do in the USA).
2. If you do not have live seats and you have an engine failure below a sensible bail-out height (around 1500 ft), you are committed to a forced landing. Do you want to try to land a heavy aircraft with a high glide threshold speed in a field? The training for all ejection seat aircraft is that you do not forced-land off a runway; you eject (even in the Tucano which is a similar AUW and threshold speed to many warbirds).
3. The big benefit of a military background when flying these aircraft is that you know when to activate the maxim "Eject in time". In the Hunter accident at Dunsfold the pilot did not.
4. If anyone is going to quote statistics on successful ejections, please qualify these with whether or not they were made inside the safe ejection envelope. It is important that we differentiate between pilot decision making and seat reliability.
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From: Gone.........for good this time.
Waggon Rut,
I'd like to know where you get your stats from, because they are complete bollo%. Been speaking to 'somebody' at the flying club bar?
Strikemaster crash in 2000 in North Lincolnshire - Aircraft spinning in from FL150. Both Pilot & pax ejected, below 1500ft (not wise), Pilot died and pax survived.....What's even more ludicrous is that the Pilot was an ex RAF QFI on Harriers, normally the first ones to bang out! Why leave it so late??
Jet Provost T.5 crash in 199? off the Essex coast - Pilot ejected perfectly. Unfortunately for him, he landed in the sea and died from exposure because he wasnt dressed for the conditions.
Jet Provost T4 crash in Gloucestershire in 1999 - Both Pilot & Pax killed, prior to ejection (Dont think they ever got to the handles!)
Vampire T11 @ Biggin Hill in 2001 - See remarks above, despite P.1 being a very experienced RAF pilot
Cant think of any others right now, but that means your stats are not very accurate!
I'd like to know where you get your stats from, because they are complete bollo%. Been speaking to 'somebody' at the flying club bar?
Strikemaster crash in 2000 in North Lincolnshire - Aircraft spinning in from FL150. Both Pilot & pax ejected, below 1500ft (not wise), Pilot died and pax survived.....What's even more ludicrous is that the Pilot was an ex RAF QFI on Harriers, normally the first ones to bang out! Why leave it so late??
Jet Provost T.5 crash in 199? off the Essex coast - Pilot ejected perfectly. Unfortunately for him, he landed in the sea and died from exposure because he wasnt dressed for the conditions.
Jet Provost T4 crash in Gloucestershire in 1999 - Both Pilot & Pax killed, prior to ejection (Dont think they ever got to the handles!)
Vampire T11 @ Biggin Hill in 2001 - See remarks above, despite P.1 being a very experienced RAF pilot
Cant think of any others right now, but that means your stats are not very accurate!
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From: Blighty
I think the policy is that the seats have to have in date cartridges if considered live and useable. Cartridges have a life of 3 years, are classified as firearms and are very expensive. This leads to the deactivation of seats - typical in JPs. However, a deactivated seat may not be as inactive as supposed as a JP incident at North Weald some years ago showed. The seat wasn't secured properly, but this wasn't evidednt to the pilot as he assumed the seat was safe and didn't do the checks normally required of a live seat. When inverted the seat moved, some of the supposedly deactivated automatics worked as advertised and a passenger was pulled out of the aircraft by the parachute which deployed from the seat while still in the aircraft. The passenger survived, but was very lucky as he hadn't done the harness up properly.
A flying school in the States I once visited had a 'deactivated seat' which lots of people including kids played with. I noticed that the guillotine was still armed. The owner was fairly shocked by the force of the thing going off when I trigggered it with a biro to make it safe.
Ejector seats are bl**dy dangerous. If you get a chance to fly an aircraft with one fitted, ask about it and learn - even if it is 'deactivated'.
A flying school in the States I once visited had a 'deactivated seat' which lots of people including kids played with. I noticed that the guillotine was still armed. The owner was fairly shocked by the force of the thing going off when I trigggered it with a biro to make it safe.
Ejector seats are bl**dy dangerous. If you get a chance to fly an aircraft with one fitted, ask about it and learn - even if it is 'deactivated'.
Gnome de PPRuNe
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From: Too close to Croydon for comfort
How many accidents, how many ejections?
Off hand I can think of 8 fatal private fast jet accidents:
2 x JP (off Essex and out of Staverton)
1 x Strikemaster (somewhere near Humberside)
2 x Hunter (1 at Dunsfold, 1 somewhere like Peak District?)
1 x Vampire (Biggin)
1 x L-29 (off Eastbourne)
1 x L-39 (Duxford).
Off hand I can think of 8 fatal private fast jet accidents:
2 x JP (off Essex and out of Staverton)
1 x Strikemaster (somewhere near Humberside)
2 x Hunter (1 at Dunsfold, 1 somewhere like Peak District?)
1 x Vampire (Biggin)
1 x L-29 (off Eastbourne)
1 x L-39 (Duxford).
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From: Pewsey, UK
For those interested, AAIB accident reports available here :
JP out of Staverton - impacted a slope
JP5 in the sea off Essex
L29 at Eastbourne
JP5 in Northern Ireland - successful forced landing
Strikemaster in Humberside - spun in during air test
Hunter at Dunsfold - attempted forced landing onto a runway
JP5 in the sea off Essex
Vampire at Biggin Hill - wake turbulence upset
[I'm still searching for other reports, but I'm hoping to go flying in an hour or so, so will update later today, with luck]
JP out of Staverton - impacted a slope
JP5 in the sea off Essex
L29 at Eastbourne
JP5 in Northern Ireland - successful forced landing
Strikemaster in Humberside - spun in during air test
Hunter at Dunsfold - attempted forced landing onto a runway
JP5 in the sea off Essex
Vampire at Biggin Hill - wake turbulence upset
[I'm still searching for other reports, but I'm hoping to go flying in an hour or so, so will update later today, with luck]
Last edited by The Nr Fairy; 1st March 2003 at 07:46.
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From: Frankfurt/Main
Dan W
I recall that bizarre incident at N.Weald. I believe I know why the decision was made at the time not to have live seats fitted. Have subsequently flown in XN629, and in several of the owner's subsequent aircraft. Every time he has treated me like a first-timer although he knows how much I know. His briefing is impeccable and his narrative whilst pulling out the pins and popping them in the board (on my side) loses none of its serious nature. I felt I had been properly briefed, but it was still my decision to go, knowing what an ejection with one of those early seats could do to my stature (20G up the butt?). It would certainly have precipitated the lower back surgery I had a year ago!
Incidentally, the pax in that incident has not flown since, except perhaps on an airliner to a holiday destination.
Was there not an incident to an aircraft on static display at a Paris air show several moons ago?
brgds
I recall that bizarre incident at N.Weald. I believe I know why the decision was made at the time not to have live seats fitted. Have subsequently flown in XN629, and in several of the owner's subsequent aircraft. Every time he has treated me like a first-timer although he knows how much I know. His briefing is impeccable and his narrative whilst pulling out the pins and popping them in the board (on my side) loses none of its serious nature. I felt I had been properly briefed, but it was still my decision to go, knowing what an ejection with one of those early seats could do to my stature (20G up the butt?). It would certainly have precipitated the lower back surgery I had a year ago!
Incidentally, the pax in that incident has not flown since, except perhaps on an airliner to a holiday destination.
Was there not an incident to an aircraft on static display at a Paris air show several moons ago?
brgds
Gnome de PPRuNe
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From: Too close to Croydon for comfort
ATB, the incident at Paris was an Embraer Tucano - the way I heard it, a member of the ground crew was standing on the seat when it was triggered - don't know if that is exactly the story. A friend of mine was at the show, though fortunately didn't witness the incident, and told me the story later.
I also once heard a scurrilous story involving a Sea Harrier, an airshow, a small child and a hangar roof, but I don't belive that one for a minute!
I also once heard a scurrilous story involving a Sea Harrier, an airshow, a small child and a hangar roof, but I don't belive that one for a minute!
