AOPA aerobatics certificate
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From: Chichester, UK
AOPA aerobatics certificate
I'm planning on doing the AOPA aerobatics course (in Vectair's Robin 2160i), and wondered what Private Flying's resident aero experts thought of it? Any tips/books to read/thoughts?
I'm just doing it to improve my stick'n'rudder skills (I learned on a PA-28 so I need it...
), and not with any plans to go on to advanced or competition aeros. Being able to do the odd loop on a nice sunny summer's evening would be nice though..
I'm just doing it to improve my stick'n'rudder skills (I learned on a PA-28 so I need it...
), and not with any plans to go on to advanced or competition aeros. Being able to do the odd loop on a nice sunny summer's evening would be nice though..
Not so N, but still FG
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From: London, UK
I recommend David Robson's book "Aerobatics" (the one with the inverted Cap 10 on the cover). I would add this book to every PPL's basic library (along with a copy of Langewiesche, and Kermode's Flight Without Formulae), because it is so informative on the physics of all flight manouevres, with helpful comments on the associated physiological effects. For my money, the book is far better than the standard manuals in explaining certain fundamentals of aircraft handling which are of relevance to all GA pilots, aerobatic or not. As for the aeros, the book does not attempt to teach you how to fly the manoeuvres - that's for the instructor - but it does set you up very well for the flight training.
Looping and rolling on a summer day is hard to beat. Ditto on a winter, spring or autumn day. If God hadn't meant aeroplanes to go upside down, he'd have made them helicopters.
Looping and rolling on a summer day is hard to beat. Ditto on a winter, spring or autumn day. If God hadn't meant aeroplanes to go upside down, he'd have made them helicopters.
Last edited by FNG; 18th February 2003 at 08:35.
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I wouldn't in any way class myself as an aeros expert..... but here's my $0.02 worth anyway!
Do it! It's the most fun you can have in an aeroplane.
The AOPA certificate is quite limited, but if you have a good instructor it is a good introduction to aeros. Due to the type of aircraft used, you generally don't do much inverted flying (R2160i should be ok if it has an inverted oil system), or any inverted spinning - which is a shame. Inverted spinning isn't a lot of fun but in some types it can happen by accident if you mishandle the controls. (I had it demonstrated to me in a Pitts at the top of a stall turn, and did it by accident in a Pitts at the top of a roll-off-the-top....
). In the Robin it isn't likely to happen, though.
The Robin will build up your biceps. To pull over 4g would need both hands - so you're never going to pull the wings off! It rolls quite nicely, and is a pleasant lerning environment - comfortable, good vis, etc. It does have an unconventional spin recovery technique (keeping the stick back throughout), although the "standard" recovery works OK.
You say you don't want to go into competition aeros. In spite of this, I'd recommend learning with an instructor who has competition experience, if at all possible. S/he will teach you to be a bit more precise, and if you ever change your mind and try a competition you won't have to "unlearn" any bad habits.
A bit of practical advice:
Keep the flights short, and don't do too many at a time. In the early stages of aerobatics, the g forces are very tiring - especially when the instructor is demonstrating (when you're flying yourself, you are much less aware of the g), and it's hard to maintain concentration. Two flights in a day, with proper pre- and post-flight briefings will be plenty.
Don't worry if you don't feel well - just ask to stop and land. It happens to everyone. And don't worry if your landings are crap after an aeros training session!
Use a headset that doesn't fall off when you're upside down!
Try to keep the silly grin off your face! Aerobatics is so much fun, and great value for money. It's a bit like learning to fly all over again. My first solo aerobatics sortie was every bit as memorable as my first solo. Once you're cleared to fly solo, a 30 minute "fix" from time to time will keep you safe, and there's always more to learn.
Enjoy it!
Do it! It's the most fun you can have in an aeroplane.
The AOPA certificate is quite limited, but if you have a good instructor it is a good introduction to aeros. Due to the type of aircraft used, you generally don't do much inverted flying (R2160i should be ok if it has an inverted oil system), or any inverted spinning - which is a shame. Inverted spinning isn't a lot of fun but in some types it can happen by accident if you mishandle the controls. (I had it demonstrated to me in a Pitts at the top of a stall turn, and did it by accident in a Pitts at the top of a roll-off-the-top....
). In the Robin it isn't likely to happen, though.The Robin will build up your biceps. To pull over 4g would need both hands - so you're never going to pull the wings off! It rolls quite nicely, and is a pleasant lerning environment - comfortable, good vis, etc. It does have an unconventional spin recovery technique (keeping the stick back throughout), although the "standard" recovery works OK.
You say you don't want to go into competition aeros. In spite of this, I'd recommend learning with an instructor who has competition experience, if at all possible. S/he will teach you to be a bit more precise, and if you ever change your mind and try a competition you won't have to "unlearn" any bad habits.
A bit of practical advice:
Keep the flights short, and don't do too many at a time. In the early stages of aerobatics, the g forces are very tiring - especially when the instructor is demonstrating (when you're flying yourself, you are much less aware of the g), and it's hard to maintain concentration. Two flights in a day, with proper pre- and post-flight briefings will be plenty.
Don't worry if you don't feel well - just ask to stop and land. It happens to everyone. And don't worry if your landings are crap after an aeros training session!
Use a headset that doesn't fall off when you're upside down!
Try to keep the silly grin off your face! Aerobatics is so much fun, and great value for money. It's a bit like learning to fly all over again. My first solo aerobatics sortie was every bit as memorable as my first solo. Once you're cleared to fly solo, a 30 minute "fix" from time to time will keep you safe, and there's always more to learn.
Enjoy it!
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
I wouldn't in any way class myself as an aeros expert..... but here's my $0.02 worth anyway!
Do it! It's the most fun you can have in an aeroplane.
Do it! It's the most fun you can have in an aeroplane.
I did all my aeros in the US, so I don't have a clue what the AOPA course covers - but I do know that I came back from every single aeros flight I did with a huge grin on my face - the kind of grin which I don't think I've managed, with my clothes on, at any other time except after my first solo.
Learning all of the manoeuvres was fun. But towards the end of my course, when I got to string 3 or 4 of them together, was absolutely awesome!Not sure what you mean about inverted spins, though. The first one I did was a little uncomfortable just because I was so unused to the sensation - but by the third of fourth time, I loved them!
(Incidentally, I agree there are a few ways of getting into an inadvertant inverted spin while doing aeros. But as far as I'm aware - unless anyone knows better - there's only one way of doing that if you're not doing aeros - and that's from a botched incipient spin recovery. My instructor made me do it as a demonstration - you have to really mess up the incipient spin recovery to get it to flick inverted, at least you do in the Great Lakes that I was flying, but they never mention that when they teach you incipient spin recovery for PPL training!)
FFF
--------------
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Not sure what you mean about inverted spins, though. The first one I did was a little uncomfortable just because I was so unused to the sensation - but by the third of fourth time, I loved them!
!!Maybe I could grow to like them one day, if I practiced them enough....
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From: Norfolk
Evo,
What is the syllabus for the AOPA course?
There are lots of good books about aeros, my favourites are by
Mike Goulian/ a n other
Bill Thomas
Eric Muller/Annette Carson
Neil Williams book is good but not as explanatory as those above
Dyuane Cole's books are pretty easy to read/understand but are limited in terms of explanation but the drawings are easy to follow!
Before trying a new maneouver I read all the accounts of flying it that I can find, translate them if required to sitting behind a prop turning clockwise and start off at a very good height.
If the AOPA course floats your boat then I would recommend that you pitch up at a BAeA competition to spectate and see if that might be for you, too.
Stik
BAeA competitor
What is the syllabus for the AOPA course?
There are lots of good books about aeros, my favourites are by
Mike Goulian/ a n other
Bill Thomas
Eric Muller/Annette Carson
Neil Williams book is good but not as explanatory as those above
Dyuane Cole's books are pretty easy to read/understand but are limited in terms of explanation but the drawings are easy to follow!
Before trying a new maneouver I read all the accounts of flying it that I can find, translate them if required to sitting behind a prop turning clockwise and start off at a very good height.
If the AOPA course floats your boat then I would recommend that you pitch up at a BAeA competition to spectate and see if that might be for you, too.
Stik
BAeA competitor
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Chichester, UK
Thanks chaps - lots of useful info
Stik - the syllabus appears to be:
(borrowed from http://www.ontrackaviation.com/AerobaticCourse.html )
The course is typically quoted as being around 10 hours, although I figure it will take me a fair bit longer than that (I'm not a very good pilot... ). I'm telling my better half that it's an 'advanced handling' course...
Stik - the syllabus appears to be:
- Pre-Flight Procedures
- Overall Airmanship
- Slow Flight - Level, Turning, Climbing and Descending
- Stall entries and recoveries from various flight attitudes
- Advanced Turning - Maximum Rate Turns
- Spins and precision recoveries
- Recoveries from Unusual Attitudes
- Loop
- Aileron Roll
- Barrel Roll
- Slow Roll
- Stall Turn
- Half Cuban 8
- Reverse Half Cuban 8
- Roll of the Top of a Loop
- Snap Roll (if permitted on aircraft type)
- Combination Sequence
(borrowed from http://www.ontrackaviation.com/AerobaticCourse.html )
The course is typically quoted as being around 10 hours, although I figure it will take me a fair bit longer than that (I'm not a very good pilot...
). I'm telling my better half that it's an 'advanced handling' course...
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Norfolk
Evo - it looks fairly comprehensive for an entry into aeros. Not sure how the Robin is as I have never flown one but have read Nick Bloom's report in Pilot a few months ago.
I have two observations:
1) Assuming that the order of the syllabus can be altered I would ensure that you do unusual attitude recoveries towards the end of the course as you will be more familiar/comfortable with hanging upside down and you will probably gain more from it in terms of confidence if done later.
2) Barrel rolls are no longer competion maneouvers BUT are great fun and good co-ordination improvers!
I've just looked at this year's BAeA Beginner's sequence and it is
1 loop
2 stall turn
3 half cuban
4 270 competition turn
5 slow roll
First beginner's comp is Bodmin on 2/3 May - best you start practicing now!!!!!
Have fun
Stik
I have two observations:
1) Assuming that the order of the syllabus can be altered I would ensure that you do unusual attitude recoveries towards the end of the course as you will be more familiar/comfortable with hanging upside down and you will probably gain more from it in terms of confidence if done later.
2) Barrel rolls are no longer competion maneouvers BUT are great fun and good co-ordination improvers!
I've just looked at this year's BAeA Beginner's sequence and it is
1 loop
2 stall turn
3 half cuban
4 270 competition turn
5 slow roll
First beginner's comp is Bodmin on 2/3 May - best you start practicing now!!!!!
Have fun
Stik
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,966
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From: Norfolk
Lud,
I think that NB had the advantage of being one of the first in the country to fly the Robin (mighty beast!!!!) and therefore no one else had anything to compare his article to!
Saw NB for breakfast a few weeks ago and surprise, surprise he didn't entertain me with his ukelele/ukulele! However even when he does play the bloody thing I don't find it very entertaining!
Stik
I think that NB had the advantage of being one of the first in the country to fly the Robin (mighty beast!!!!) and therefore no one else had anything to compare his article to!
Saw NB for breakfast a few weeks ago and surprise, surprise he didn't entertain me with his ukelele/ukulele! However even when he does play the bloody thing I don't find it very entertaining!
Stik
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From: Chichester, UK
Not sure how the Robin is as I have never flown one but have read Nick Bloom's report in Pilot a few months ago.
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From: Norfolk
That was the one. I didn't read it through so remain uncertain as to whether or not you are allowed to flick it.
Suggest that if you do flicks with the instructor you have him show you some on the up and down 45. Flicks do not become part of the BAeA competition sequences until you move up to Intermediate.
Hesitation rolls (2 and 4 point) would be more useful for a tyro aerobat! You may find that your instructor teaches you to slow roll in two parts anyway, roll to inverted hold it there S&L with fwd stick then roll erect.
Stik
Suggest that if you do flicks with the instructor you have him show you some on the up and down 45. Flicks do not become part of the BAeA competition sequences until you move up to Intermediate.
Hesitation rolls (2 and 4 point) would be more useful for a tyro aerobat! You may find that your instructor teaches you to slow roll in two parts anyway, roll to inverted hold it there S&L with fwd stick then roll erect.
Stik
Joined: Apr 1999
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From: Glen Prosen, Scotland
Stik, the Robin I saw popping up beyond Selby Abbey the other day was certainly flicking , very nice it looked too. You in at Standard again this year?
MLS-12D, Basic Aerobatics by Mike Goulian & Geza Szurovy, ISBN 0-07-062926-9. Also Advanced Aerobatics by the same authors but I don't have the ISBN handy. Both good.
Evo, don't discount competition aeros - you don't have to be an ace or anything, just safe. It's great fun and very educational. Have a look at British Aerobatics Association
, very nice it looked too. You in at Standard again this year?MLS-12D, Basic Aerobatics by Mike Goulian & Geza Szurovy, ISBN 0-07-062926-9. Also Advanced Aerobatics by the same authors but I don't have the ISBN handy. Both good.
Evo, don't discount competition aeros - you don't have to be an ace or anything, just safe. It's great fun and very educational. Have a look at British Aerobatics Association
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From: Canada
Thanks DB6. I have seen both those books for sale at the local aviation shop, will have to pick them up.
Any idea about the Annette Carson book? I know that she wrote one called "Flight Fantastic: the Illustrated History of Aerobatics", but that doesn't sound much like an instructional manual.
Any idea about the Annette Carson book? I know that she wrote one called "Flight Fantastic: the Illustrated History of Aerobatics", but that doesn't sound much like an instructional manual.
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From: The middle
To respond to stiknrudas post, the unusual attitude recoveries are generally done quite near to the start of the course because then your instructor can send you off to do solo practice of the basic manouevers (loops, aileron rolls etc) secure in the knowledge that you can get yourself out of trouble. If you think about it before any solo aeros a good revision of, or often nowdays an introduction to spinning is essential. You should also be familiar with recoveries from the vertical and inverted before attempting even a solo loop, because if you get it wrong then that is where you're likely to end up.
Its also important that your instructor knows exactly what you want to achieve. When I was current at teaching aeros years ago I used to make sure that the student knew what they were getting. If they wanted to do the AOPA syllabus for fun then fine, but if they were interested in competitions then right from the start I would send them off to someone who flew comps. OK it might have lost the flying club a few customers but at least I didn't feel I was ripping anyone off.
Regarding books I did everything upto the aerobatic Instructor course with Ron Cambell and Barry Tempests' basic aerobatic book in the AOPA series (don't know if its still in print). The others are all interesting but all you really need initially is a basic manual, the aircraft POH and plenty of good long briefings from an instructor who knows your aircraft.
Finally remember it's all about practice, and don't be ashamed to stop if you feel uncomfortable. Most people get a bit queasy sitting through someone elses aeros, hence as was mentioned above short training flights are better.
Its also important that your instructor knows exactly what you want to achieve. When I was current at teaching aeros years ago I used to make sure that the student knew what they were getting. If they wanted to do the AOPA syllabus for fun then fine, but if they were interested in competitions then right from the start I would send them off to someone who flew comps. OK it might have lost the flying club a few customers but at least I didn't feel I was ripping anyone off.
Regarding books I did everything upto the aerobatic Instructor course with Ron Cambell and Barry Tempests' basic aerobatic book in the AOPA series (don't know if its still in print). The others are all interesting but all you really need initially is a basic manual, the aircraft POH and plenty of good long briefings from an instructor who knows your aircraft.
Finally remember it's all about practice, and don't be ashamed to stop if you feel uncomfortable. Most people get a bit queasy sitting through someone elses aeros, hence as was mentioned above short training flights are better.
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From: don't know, I'll ask
As far as books go, IMHO the best books on the planet on the subject, especially if you are doing it in a Pitts, are Bill Thomas' "Flying for Fun" and "Flying for Fun to Win". They are so good it is almost possible to fly with the book in one hand and read it straight off the card as you fly! There are a few places in the UK that sell them, but your best bet if you cannot find one is go directly to the Author who will send you them. For the Pitts driver, it is also worth looking at Gene Beggs "Spinning in the Pitts Special" made my hair stand on end! Again, the author will send them if you cannot find it here but a couple of places have them. PM me if you want full details.
