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Why most PPLs are not confident pilots - and probably shouldn't be!

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Why most PPLs are not confident pilots - and probably shouldn't be!

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Old 18th Feb 2003, 07:52
  #21 (permalink)  
Final 3 Greens
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Big Pistons

My neighbour, who is an 18,000 ATPL says 'know your capability envelope and stay well inside it.'

He also says 'the most inexperienced pilot can stay as safe as the most experienced if they apply this rule and develop their experience at a safe and sensible pace."

I agree with your post and it is nice to see something succint and useful.
 
Old 18th Feb 2003, 14:35
  #22 (permalink)  
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F3G,

I can see your neighbour's point, but people who stay too far inside their existing capability envelope are surely exactly the ones who end up with one hour 5,000 times.

John Farley has written some good stuff on how pilots can improve their flying and extend their capabilities and confidence by expanding their envelope of experience. To do that requires a little gentle pushing.
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Old 18th Feb 2003, 21:58
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And how pray do you know where your envolope ends if you do not get to the edges and teater on the brink?

Life's to short to whittle about trivia and do things that are unchallenging but frightening. If flying (a noncompulsory activity) scares you after a reasonable amount of experince at it, what the hell is the point of doing it? I'm not advocating the penis asbestos approach to flying but hells teeth, what happened to the pioneering spirit. Press on or forget it, take up golf or something.
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Old 18th Feb 2003, 22:10
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FO wrote:

take up golf
Now, now no need to be that rude.



FD
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Old 19th Feb 2003, 00:05
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I think that it is mainly about attitude ... I had the usual attitude that I was a good driver after I passed my test and got a few miles under the wheels ...

However, I joined a big company and was sent to driver training ... this really changed my driving ... improving it beyond belief, though I am still inattentive sometimes ... we are regularly assessed with a 'commentary drive' and we have to demonstrate that we can talk and drive, and fully concentrate on traffic road conditions etc.

I strongly believe that with the right attitude and planning you can be a good pilot too. Know your limitations and if you haven't flown in a bit, pick a decent day, instead of launching into borderline conditions. Read everything you can about flying, and where possible try and fly (for fun) with a professional and current working pilot ... it should open your eyes to how it **should** be done.
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Old 19th Feb 2003, 14:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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It is interesting that a lot of the nervous pilots & drivers seem to be female. Is it just a case of differing attitudes of the sexes?

FWIW I think it's important to be confident in your abilities or else it would be impossible to relax, but always remember that you are fallible and question every decision you make. We are trained to do just that after all.
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Old 20th Feb 2003, 08:59
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Oh dear, I wonder what's wrong with me? Reading this thread, I don't seem to recognise anyone like me - but I can't, surely be alone?

Am I a better driver (40 years experience) than a pilot - I don't think so. Given the huge difference in hours I ought to be. Do I feel at ease in a car? Yes. Do I feel the same "easiness" in a plane? No, but I am not lacking confidence - just being very "aware" of what I am doing.

When I go out to the 'plane, I feel a little itchy, hoping I won't screw up - but maybe that's a little touch of adrenaline, in anticipation? However, once the noisy bit at the front starts, I relax. I concentrate on the checks, monitor the R/T, and when I open the throttle there's 6000ft of tarmac ahead of me (yeah, yeah, but that's just the way it is!).

Do I calculate my take-off distance? You gotta be kidding.
Do I do a weight and balance? Only if I know I am operating with full loads and full fuel - anything less of either is always within the envelope.
Do I worry about EFATO? No. If its below 300ft I can probably get down, if its above 500ft, there's nowhere to go outside the airfield. If its in-between, then it all depends on the day. Do I think about it? Yes, in calm moments away from the aircraft, and I go over in my mind what are the options. Does it make me nervous? No - if it did I wouldn't fly.

Do I worry about my nav.? Not really - its been OK up 'till now.
Does ATC frighten me? No, being an ex controller I actually welcome them :-)

Have I gone outside my experience? Not yet.
Am I trying to extend my experience? Yes, whenever I can.

Am I a confident pilot? Yes, but aware of my limitations.
Am I a competent pilot? Who knows, but probably yes, within reason, and within the limitations of my (low) hours.
Am I a frightened pilot? No, but I try to take care, do what I've been taught, and not do stupid things.

Am I wonderfully naive about flying, in my limited experience? No, I know things can go wrong, but I haven't (fortunately) experienced any.

Do I enjoy flying? You betcha, and its a darn sight better than driving!


Am I really so different to everyone else?
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Old 20th Feb 2003, 09:13
  #28 (permalink)  
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GroundBound,

Excellent summary!

I'd be with you 100% if I hadn't gone slightly outside my experience at the time by suffering an EFATO early in my solo training, so let's call it 98% agreement

I count things like first sea crossings, trips to new countries, first farm strips etc. as extending experience rather than going beyond it.
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Old 20th Feb 2003, 09:20
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> Am I really so different to everyone else?

Nope, pretty much the same as me, and most of the people I know.

I would reckon to be a better driver than pilot, but fallible at both. Having done many years of rallying I feel better equipped to cope with skids etc than I do to cope with an inadvertent spin at low level (for example). However, as I pilot I feel well enough trained to avoid the spinning in the first place (I'm not saying it'll never happen to me, but provided I don't make mistakes it shouldn't).

I get the same itchy feeling doing the walkround, but it disappears once I strap in.

4000ft of tar for me, so take-off distance is no issue two up in a PA28. Likewise EFATO - below 300ft I'll get back to the runway; 300-600ft I'm probably going for a swim (if we're on 28) or the football fields (if we're on 10), above that I'll work something out ....

I have made mistakes and frightened myself, but I lived to tell the tale. It did put me off briefly, so I confessed all to my instructor, and he pointed out that the training had kicked in and sorted the problem out, and I had learned enough not to do the same stupid thing again.
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Old 20th Feb 2003, 10:25
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As a 250 hour PPL who frequently feels nervous before a flight, I have found this comparison with motoring quite helpful.

I do far too much driving and the only times I feel any kind of similar nervousness is when I am about to drive in a different country or in particularly bad weather e.g. snow or fog.

I have realised that there are two kinds of nervousness.

The first is the base kind of nervousness which comes from partaking in an inherently high risk activity where you are placing your safety in your own hands. This applies to me in all flights, is IMHO a safe characteristic and, without it, I do not think I would find flying so attractive.

My main nervousness depends on how long since I have flown, the weather conditions and where I am going. In other words it depends on my perception of the risk of getting myself into trouble and making a fool of myself. I never feel this kind of nervousness on a return flight unless the conditions have changed for the worse. This kind of nervousness stops as soon as I start the engine.
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Old 20th Feb 2003, 21:11
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Perceived ability - perceived demand
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Old 22nd Feb 2003, 15:22
  #32 (permalink)  

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How satisfying to post something that you hope will get people thinking...and come back after 5 days away to find three pages of thinking! Maybe this forum is alive after all.

A number of people have posted on the similarities/differences between driving and flying. Of course, the analogy is imprecise - as all analogies are. But in both cases one has to operate a machine while navigating, doing several other things and considering other road/air users. Despite the fact that car drivers CAN stop, many people continue when they're tired, in poor conditions (ice, fog etc). And a number of people enjoy driving; I'm one of them. and look at the popularity of car magazines.
So I don't think they're all that different.

QDM thinks there's too much anxiety in our society, and I shouldn't add to it. Excuse me, are certain threads to be taboo now? And perhaps we should consider the differences between anxiety, fear, and nervousness, which are all being used somewhat interchangeably and imprecisely here.

This all led to some interesting thoughts on the use of nervousness before flying, and whether confidence is a good or bad thing. Well, a certain amount of confidence is necessary, but over-confidence can kill.

And the butterflies before flying? Useful, yes, but sometimes mine have amounted to a strong message NOT to go - and it's usually been just before the weather closed in. A very experienced instructor told me to go with those feelings.
And when as a newish PPL I went to the airfield, looked at the weather and chose not to fly, I remember a nearly qualified student implying that I was a wimp. Lots of things to consider here. And my 2000 hour instructor friend says that eventually the butterflies before flying do go, and mine have all but vanished now for local flights.

Hw do we judge our own ability? Especially if, as someone said, pilots are either better than they think, or think they're better than they are? Some people seem to be confusing confidence and ability.

BTW Manuel, I said I USED to get a headache driving in London. I did. So do many people from rural north Wales, who are more used to mountain and off road driving than finding their way to a series of appointments in a city which has different rules to driving in the rest of the country, and since I do 24,000 miles a year on our roads, I DO know about that. After a year or two of regular trips and 12 hour days on the road, I got used to it. And I seem to have no difficulty getting in an aircraft, as my bank manager will testify. Rubbish? I don't think so. Maybe you just didn't like my conclusions. I wonder why.

And I also wonder why so many posters feel it necessary to emphasise their confidence and ability so strongly. Didn't someone once say something about protesting too much?

Right, I'll check this out next week....
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Old 22nd Feb 2003, 16:22
  #33 (permalink)  
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Flight Stim

To re-iterate, my neighbours thinking is ...
develop their experience at a safe and sensible pace.
As I understand it, he means stay well within the envelope, but develop the envelope.

So long as the relationship does not get too much out of balance, the pilot will remain safe.

Personally, I did a night rating, some instrument training some multi engine training and also started to fly abroad.

With regard to some 'pushing', I bellieve that you are correct and to extend this thinking a little, that making this judgement is one of the key skills of good instructors.

I'm not a flight instructor, but I do have a substantial amount of training/coaching experience in complex areas and getting the best from people usually involves some 'stretch', often creating slight stress in the short term, followed by increased capability, reduced stress and enhanced confidence in the medium.

Chocks Wahay

Maybe females (as a generalisation) are capable more easily of accepting and sharing emotions? (BTW I am male)

If you reference some of the human factors works (e.g. David Beatty), there seems to be some serious thinking that male 'machismo' can a dangerous factor, as it can remove the 'check and balance' of a (sensible) degree of caution in decision making and risk assessment.

Whether I am making a leap of faith here to extend the association, I don't honestly know, but I think it's worth considering.

Flickoff

And how pray do you know where your envolope ends if you do not get to the edges and teater on the brink?
Depends on your thinking on what "teetering on the edge" is.

For example, if someone went spinning for the first time without any instruction would you regard that as 'teetering on the edge?'

Or do you mean taking a considered decision to use your new IMC rating by yourself in real WX for the first time.

#1 would IMHO be very foolish and dangerous, #2 involves a severity/probability decision based on rational decision making and realistic self appraisal.

However, #1 would be sensible under the guidance of a capable instructor.

So, IMHO, you can explore the envelope with reasonable risk management, in a 'safe' environment.

Where it goes to pot is when workload outstrips capability and that is a personal profile for each of us to know and mitigate accordingly.

Last edited by Final 3 Greens; 22nd Feb 2003 at 16:54.
 
Old 22nd Feb 2003, 16:38
  #34 (permalink)  

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Very well said Whirly

John
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Old 22nd Feb 2003, 17:02
  #35 (permalink)  
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Whirly

Hw do we judge our own ability?
I find that honest reflection on the things I do, plus using the same instructor over a number of years for refresher training, at least makes me feel comfortable with my own ability and limitations.

For example, I am told by my instructor that I am a safe and neat pilot, but I know that I suffer from laterality - e.g. have to think about east and west in my case, athough left and right is never troublesome.

Having occasionally reported to ATC that I was west when east and vice versa (and also having this brought to my attention during a check ride) makes me very careful to double check now.

But you have to be honest with yourself and accept your frailities.
 
Old 22nd Feb 2003, 18:12
  #36 (permalink)  
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F3G,

...getting the best from people usually involves some 'stretch', often creating slight stress in the short term, followed by increased capability, reduced stress and enhanced confidence in the medium.

I think that that expresses what I'm driving at very well. Those who will not subject themselves to the stress which is often entailed in confronting new situations or extending previous experience tend to remain at the same level.

To draw an analogy other than the driving one, I have often seen this with people learning to ski. Those who take for granted that a few falls are all part of the learning experience progress quite fast; those who will do anything to avoid them will spend years on the learners' slopes in the characteristic defensive 'beginners crouch.'

I suppose we all make our own decisions about how far and for how long to keep 'pushing the envelope' until we're satisfied with the level we've reached.

I hope I've got a good few more years to go before I stop extending my flying skills. With skiing on the other hand, I've stopped pushing and am happy to stay within the envelope I've established over the years.


By the way, I think the east/west business is quite common - I'm sure I remember a whole thread about it here somewhere.
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Old 22nd Feb 2003, 19:27
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Final 3 Greens, I agree totally, that to go into unknown parts of the flight envelope, whether personal or aircraft specific, without proper briefing/training/guidance or WHY relevant to the activity is fool hardy. I am not advocating an "It's sunny so I'll go and try a spin" approach, what I mean is that being stretched is a good thing, which it is not always possible to do with an instructor or other pilot on board, beacause in the absolute final analysis you can be reasonably sure that the other pilot is not just going to sit there and be killed!

Ones personal envelope might end, and therefore warrant a stretch, at say landing at a busy airfield and dealing with all the rt etc etc, or it might be that you are just a bit up tight about outside loops or tail slides. Whatever it is until you go there you do not know, and until you have been there you have not expanded your abilities. It might be that having been there you think never again; at least you will know where the edges are.
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Old 23rd Feb 2003, 07:03
  #38 (permalink)  
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Fly Stim/Flickoff

Thanks for your replies, which make some good points

It strikes me from reading your posts and thinking further that to try and define confidence as an absolute 'thing' is probably unhelpful.

If one is going to accept some need for 'stretch', then confidence will be relative to existing experience.

For example, I'm confident that I can fly x-country into an international airport with full ATC, but I am not confident that I can fly MEP due to lack of currency - EFATO would be marginal at the best.

Extending that thinking, then each of us will have an individual 'confidence' profile, against which we map out own own ability.

Depending on whether we are 'half empty' or 'half full' in our thinking, we will either feel very confident (within our envelope) or not so.

On reflection both attitudes are okay so long as applied in an appropriate manner.

Relating this thinking to my work experience, I would say that the personal development of both types (which I realise is a gross over simplification) can be either challenging or impressive depending on a raft of other factors. (Working on the 'soft side' is always very complex imho.)

When Whirly set the original thread title, perhaps the wording was interpreted as a little judgemental by some (who are relatively confident), possibly causing some of the robust replies which she now queries as 'he who denieth too much.'

There is nothing quite so persoanlly offensive as someone else making a dissonant judgement about an indivdual - pride etc. kicks in and emotions filter rationality.

BTW, this is not a dig at Whirly, as this thread is very valuable in my view and being confrontive about an issue is the best way to start a healthy debate.
 
Old 23rd Feb 2003, 12:58
  #39 (permalink)  

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Final 3 Greens,

Fair comment about the thread title. I think I meant to start that kind of debate, though to be honest I was in a hurry at the time and didn't think it through all that much. Anyway, this has turned into rather a good thread, one way and another.
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Old 23rd Feb 2003, 13:31
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Hi,
IMHO ... its an indivdual thing...
As a new'ish PPL holder, I had nerves on my first post PPL flight.
Before I qualified I got nerves... so nothing much has changed just yet for me.
Do I get nervous on applying full power and rolling down the runway... well no, My mind is pre-occupied in holding a centreline and doing the checks.
Seems to me, there is an element of when things are undercontrol and when your ahead of your aircraft -thats when the mind starts to imagine stuff. I sure as heck dont have time to wonder all manner of disasters when cockpit workload is keeping me occupied.
Frequency of flying in my experience is another factor. The more often I went flying the more natural it all seemed. When I hadn't flown for extended periods (money, weather) ..thats when the nerves/anxiety are greatest.
Thats my 2p worth...
Regards.
H.
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