PPL - Elstree
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Elstree
Help needed please - recently here somebody (PPLa) referred to
the lion Flying group based at Elstree - anyone know anything about them - where and how to contact them etc ??
Help please - somebody mentioned Lion Group based at Elstree
as a possible cheaper way to obtain traing ? anybody know their contact or indeed anything about them ??
the lion Flying group based at Elstree - anyone know anything about them - where and how to contact them etc ??
Help please - somebody mentioned Lion Group based at Elstree
as a possible cheaper way to obtain traing ? anybody know their contact or indeed anything about them ??
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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Landing Fees at Elstree
Home based a/c do not pay landing fees at Elstree. (This certainly was the case very recently and I believe is still the case)
So. Students should NOT pay Cxxxxx for landing fees which the company is not having to pay!
Perhaps if this fee were waived, it would go some way towards the extra 'in the air' costs of having to fly a much longer circuit than at other fields.
Home based a/c do not pay landing fees at Elstree. (This certainly was the case very recently and I believe is still the case)
So. Students should NOT pay Cxxxxx for landing fees which the company is not having to pay!
Perhaps if this fee were waived, it would go some way towards the extra 'in the air' costs of having to fly a much longer circuit than at other fields.
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Lion Flying Group at Elstree
Wolram
The Lion Fying Goup based at Elstree has its own website at:
www.lionflyinggroup.com
Have a look at that, and I spoke to the CFI today who said she'd be pleased to hear from you at:
[email protected]
ppl(a)
The Lion Fying Goup based at Elstree has its own website at:
www.lionflyinggroup.com
Have a look at that, and I spoke to the CFI today who said she'd be pleased to hear from you at:
[email protected]
ppl(a)
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Leclairage
I do not understand the problem. Flying schools/clubs are business, they only care how much money they can make and how they can reduce cost. They charge you £10 landing fees, this is money in with no overheads, to allow you another 5min. in the air will increase their expanses and reduce their profit. You would do the same if you were in their position, but you are not.
I do not understand the problem. Flying schools/clubs are business, they only care how much money they can make and how they can reduce cost. They charge you £10 landing fees, this is money in with no overheads, to allow you another 5min. in the air will increase their expanses and reduce their profit. You would do the same if you were in their position, but you are not.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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AC-DC
Thanks for the passionate outburst. I do regret however that you cannot speak for me! Further, I own a businees, and well understand costs and margins.
However, to mis-represent a landing fee situation will only (speaking from personal experience!) alienate a student upon discovering that he/she has been ripped off.
Cabair would have one believe that they value on-going business as a PPL hirer. Hard to credit in the face of non existant landing fees payable!!
Yes, I agree a great training company, but if you want consistency of instructors, go to their smaller operations as the larger ones will put a student with whichever instructor/aircraft is convenient on the day.
Thanks for the passionate outburst. I do regret however that you cannot speak for me! Further, I own a businees, and well understand costs and margins.
However, to mis-represent a landing fee situation will only (speaking from personal experience!) alienate a student upon discovering that he/she has been ripped off.
Cabair would have one believe that they value on-going business as a PPL hirer. Hard to credit in the face of non existant landing fees payable!!
Yes, I agree a great training company, but if you want consistency of instructors, go to their smaller operations as the larger ones will put a student with whichever instructor/aircraft is convenient on the day.
Last edited by Leclairage; 11th Mar 2003 at 22:10.
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I to live in Watford and trained at Cabair from Elstree. I have no complaints about them. The only issue I had was having four instructors during my training, as they all were only there only to hour build on their KLM sponsorships.
I now run my plane from there and apart from the grumpy ATC there are some very helpful and freindly pilots.
Try a trial lesson with both firms and see what you think.
I now run my plane from there and apart from the grumpy ATC there are some very helpful and freindly pilots.
Try a trial lesson with both firms and see what you think.
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Good to hear some healthy debate on Elstree. I for one trained with Flyteam who have an office there...but actually do their training at EGTC Cranfield..about 45mins up the M1. A complete chalk'n cheese situation...Cranfield has a 1700m runway but is equally if not more busy in the (again rather large) circuit.
As for Elstree, I do not find it a particularly good field from a practical viewpoint..the large circuit is a definite negative. I can understand noise abatement rules, but how can that apply to Cabair and Firecrest but not to others? Furthermore it is a fact that elstree has some v. rich memebers with v. nice aircraft and that to this end, it is perhaps not seen as a particularly friendly PPL training facility.
As for the aforementioned AFISO, I do not care what anyone says about stress...there is no reason to be unprofessional on the radio, and by getting ****ty (as he definitely does)he makes it a) stressful to the poor pilot trying to cope with a busy circuit and b) quite simply bad manners...just because he is having a bad / stressful day doesnt mean he should take that out on others. Yes, he may have 101 things on the go at the same time, trying to "AFISO" safely and efficiently, but is he being thrown around over the trees at the end of 26 or trying to sort out his 4 mile final and safe seperation from traffic in front? Having your ear chewed off whilst doing that increases pilot stress and ultimately could steer you towards capacity overload. My answer is if he doesnt like the job, or indeed cant handle the stress, then to go and do something else.
As for Elstree, I do not find it a particularly good field from a practical viewpoint..the large circuit is a definite negative. I can understand noise abatement rules, but how can that apply to Cabair and Firecrest but not to others? Furthermore it is a fact that elstree has some v. rich memebers with v. nice aircraft and that to this end, it is perhaps not seen as a particularly friendly PPL training facility.
As for the aforementioned AFISO, I do not care what anyone says about stress...there is no reason to be unprofessional on the radio, and by getting ****ty (as he definitely does)he makes it a) stressful to the poor pilot trying to cope with a busy circuit and b) quite simply bad manners...just because he is having a bad / stressful day doesnt mean he should take that out on others. Yes, he may have 101 things on the go at the same time, trying to "AFISO" safely and efficiently, but is he being thrown around over the trees at the end of 26 or trying to sort out his 4 mile final and safe seperation from traffic in front? Having your ear chewed off whilst doing that increases pilot stress and ultimately could steer you towards capacity overload. My answer is if he doesnt like the job, or indeed cant handle the stress, then to go and do something else.
Mess Your Passage
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Finals 19,
Hit the nail on the head!
It's his job. You would soon be sacked for rudeness in any other damn job
He is there to provide a service.
And on the curcuit?
Is it legal to have a cct outside an atz?
Lots of dodgy phaseology " Join report 4 miles?" not in cap 410
Im still waiting for a request that we call him Elstree director!
Can't stand the place snobby grotty much better places to go.
Hit the nail on the head!
It's his job. You would soon be sacked for rudeness in any other damn job
He is there to provide a service.
And on the curcuit?
Is it legal to have a cct outside an atz?
Lots of dodgy phaseology " Join report 4 miles?" not in cap 410
Im still waiting for a request that we call him Elstree director!
Can't stand the place snobby grotty much better places to go.
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Leclairage
Does not happen too often 
To fly with Cubair was your first mistake, they have the reputation of taking your money without your knowledge.
Finals19
It is hard to argue with you, you are right. Have you seat with him in the bar? Have you been in the box to see what he has to face? I know, you are right, just to let you know that he is a nice guy (away from the box).
I don't understand your point
Thanks for the passionate outburst.
However, to mis-represent a landing fee situation will only (speaking from personal experience!) alienate a student upon discovering that he/she has been ripped off.
Finals19
It is hard to argue with you, you are right. Have you seat with him in the bar? Have you been in the box to see what he has to face? I know, you are right, just to let you know that he is a nice guy (away from the box).
Furthermore it is a fact that elstree has some v. rich memebers with v. nice aircraft and that to this end, it is perhaps not seen as a particularly friendly PPL training facility.
Autorise a L'atterrissage
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Hi AC-DC
No worries!
It was Cabair not Cubair
I fully agree with earlier view(s) on dreadful attitude of chap in 'tower'.
Poor adherence to correct nomenclature and shameful temperament, particularly at a training, and sometimes tricky airfield is not really good enough.
But he is still in post, so I guess his management must be happy with him.
Perhaps they should go and listen in to radio traffic at other airfields to learn how nicely/professionaly it CAN be done!
No worries!
It was Cabair not Cubair
I fully agree with earlier view(s) on dreadful attitude of chap in 'tower'.
Poor adherence to correct nomenclature and shameful temperament, particularly at a training, and sometimes tricky airfield is not really good enough.
But he is still in post, so I guess his management must be happy with him.
Perhaps they should go and listen in to radio traffic at other airfields to learn how nicely/professionaly it CAN be done!
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I've always found the guys in the tower at elstree ok - maybe I've just been lucky. It's the Elstree-based pilots that have been unhelpful and rude. It's a pretty unfriendly place for a ppl, I think. Perhaps it's a result of the cabair gold braid syndrome.
Mess Your Passage
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And being asked to " remain north of the m25 "
Another instruction, outside of the atz by a fiso.
so if you are travelling west to east the line feature rule goe's out the window doe's it ?
How is it still open?
Another instruction, outside of the atz by a fiso.
so if you are travelling west to east the line feature rule goe's out the window doe's it ?
How is it still open?
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essouira
Can you give some examples please? I am not going to say that all is rosy but at least people will know what they have to work on.
Flash0710
Then you contradict yourself and say:
In my book arequest is not the same as instruction. Then you keep on and say:
Who is Pilot in Command? It is your duty to follow the rules, you were ASKED not TOLD.
The reason that you were ASKED to remain North of the M25 is because Elstree circuit is about 1mile South of the M25, you can find there low time PPLs, low time students with/without instructors and first solo. This request is for your safety just as theirs. The reasons for this were explained in the magazines and on this forum. That is fine if you don’t want to except it but do not complain about the FISO asking you to keep your distance. You are P1, it is your responsibility to keep clear of other traffic, if you don’t it is your head, isn’t it?
Can you give some examples please? I am not going to say that all is rosy but at least people will know what they have to work on.
Flash0710
And being asked to " remain north of the m25 "
Another instruction, outside of the atz by a fiso.
so if you are travelling west to east the line feature rule goe's out the window doe's it ?
The reason that you were ASKED to remain North of the M25 is because Elstree circuit is about 1mile South of the M25, you can find there low time PPLs, low time students with/without instructors and first solo. This request is for your safety just as theirs. The reasons for this were explained in the magazines and on this forum. That is fine if you don’t want to except it but do not complain about the FISO asking you to keep your distance. You are P1, it is your responsibility to keep clear of other traffic, if you don’t it is your head, isn’t it?
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ACDC
Who said it was a request ?
Phaseology is there to ensure there is no confusion or ambiguity thoughout transmission.
ie descresionary relates to fiso
and cleared relates to atc
Perhaps if you are that low time ppl and you fly into elstree you would listen follow the fis intructions as illegal as they are be the wrong side of the line featue and bang into something.
as far as i know the only positive control a fiso has is on the ground. That being the case a request to remain north of the m25 seems pretty instructive in my book.
i agree that its the pilots responsibilty to follow line feature rule and i ignored the fiso and remained south so i could avoid other pilots avoiding the circus that elstree is following real life aviation rules.
Who said it was a request ?
Phaseology is there to ensure there is no confusion or ambiguity thoughout transmission.
ie descresionary relates to fiso
and cleared relates to atc
Perhaps if you are that low time ppl and you fly into elstree you would listen follow the fis intructions as illegal as they are be the wrong side of the line featue and bang into something.
as far as i know the only positive control a fiso has is on the ground. That being the case a request to remain north of the m25 seems pretty instructive in my book.
i agree that its the pilots responsibilty to follow line feature rule and i ignored the fiso and remained south so i could avoid other pilots avoiding the circus that elstree is following real life aviation rules.
Last edited by Flash0710; 14th Mar 2003 at 01:08.
Mess Your Passage
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Jeffery
They provide a service?
Are you sure ?
As far as im concerned a service is somethimg you recieve in a courtious way.
and its been a long time since i recieved ANY traffic information at els apart from
" Report four mile final runway xxx circ xxx " again instructions but hey he can bend it for you i'd feel safe!
They provide a service?
Are you sure ?
As far as im concerned a service is somethimg you recieve in a courtious way.
and its been a long time since i recieved ANY traffic information at els apart from
" Report four mile final runway xxx circ xxx " again instructions but hey he can bend it for you i'd feel safe!
Mess Your Passage
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You Know.........
...The tall one..........
Check out the Aerodrome Fire regs on the notice board in the cafe.
If the caa approved that they need a new grammar/spell check/monkey.....!!!!
...The tall one..........
Check out the Aerodrome Fire regs on the notice board in the cafe.
If the caa approved that they need a new grammar/spell check/monkey.....!!!!
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Flash0710
Still just another number
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posted 14th March 2003 02:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffery
They provide a service?
Are you sure ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Oh we are being picky. The 'service' does enable the smooth and more importantly, safe transition of airframe to air and back again.
I have no quarrel with those who find AFISO a bit abrupt, but if you want to operate in any airspace and have not made sufficient enquires as to its requirements, then you cannot be surprised if you are told that what you are doing compromises safety.
And if you are in a busy environment, though it would be preferable for a calm voice to point out your error, we do not live in a perfect world, and as P1 you should be able to cope with any safety related instuction.
Still just another number
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posted 14th March 2003 02:59
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffery
They provide a service?
Are you sure ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
Oh we are being picky. The 'service' does enable the smooth and more importantly, safe transition of airframe to air and back again.
I have no quarrel with those who find AFISO a bit abrupt, but if you want to operate in any airspace and have not made sufficient enquires as to its requirements, then you cannot be surprised if you are told that what you are doing compromises safety.
And if you are in a busy environment, though it would be preferable for a calm voice to point out your error, we do not live in a perfect world, and as P1 you should be able to cope with any safety related instuction.
