Importing aicraft
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Importing aicraft
Does anyone have any knowlege/experience of buying aircraft in other countries where they are less expensive and bringing them to the UK?
The obvious country is the US, but there may be others.
Is it a viable option?
Are the rules and regulations too complicated?
Does the reality of transporting it make it too much trouble?
Thanks
The obvious country is the US, but there may be others.
Is it a viable option?
Are the rules and regulations too complicated?
Does the reality of transporting it make it too much trouble?
Thanks
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I looked at a Danish and a German aircraft last year, before eventually buying a UK-registered example. On the surface, both the Danish and German machines seemed OK. In practice, getting either of them on the UK register would have cost £20K+. The Danish machine was a Super Cub on a Danish experimental CofA with inadequate paperwork to convert it to a regular CofA. This would have made it extremely tough, if it was possible at all, to bring it in. The German machine 'allegedly' had only 300 hours on the engine (which I don't believe actually), but the previous overhaul was >10 years, so it would have had to be zero-timed to get on as a G-reg.
My advice -- it is possible, but it will cost several thousand at the very least and quite possibly a lot more. Above all talk to the CAA about your particular purchase before you purchase it. That may save you a lot of heartache. Leon Winnert at the CAA is very helpful indeed.
QDM
My advice -- it is possible, but it will cost several thousand at the very least and quite possibly a lot more. Above all talk to the CAA about your particular purchase before you purchase it. That may save you a lot of heartache. Leon Winnert at the CAA is very helpful indeed.
QDM
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Really depends on what you want to do with the aircraft,
it is possible to keep an aircraft on the American register
which may be the only viable option for some types due
the difficulty of CAA certification.
This involves some additional housekeeping in the sense
of a trust arrangement and your needing an FAA certificate
to fly it outside UK-airspace.
It has the positive position of allowing use of FAA ratings
and maintenance schedules...however it also prevents
your performing aerial work without a specific exemption.
-- Andrew
it is possible to keep an aircraft on the American register
which may be the only viable option for some types due
the difficulty of CAA certification.
This involves some additional housekeeping in the sense
of a trust arrangement and your needing an FAA certificate
to fly it outside UK-airspace.
It has the positive position of allowing use of FAA ratings
and maintenance schedules...however it also prevents
your performing aerial work without a specific exemption.
-- Andrew
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N-reg flying
I am investigating doing just this - buying an N-reg and flying/basing it here. The most obvious advantage apart from buying cost (and choice!) is that it's a lot easier & cheaper to get an IR in US.
Also note that there are a number of trust & financing companies (most based in the Channel Isl.) that seem to be specialising in this area.
Andrew - I am curious by your "needing an FAA certificate to fly it outside UK-airspace" comment - please explain.
Also note that there are a number of trust & financing companies (most based in the Channel Isl.) that seem to be specialising in this area.
Andrew - I am curious by your "needing an FAA certificate to fly it outside UK-airspace" comment - please explain.
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Piotr,
If you have an existing FAA license there is no problem.
If you have a JAA UK license then in order to fly your
N-reg outside the UK on that JAR-PPL you either need
to have a specific waiver from that country to allow you
to fly there with your UK license, a license for that country
or an FAA certificate derived from your existing UK license.
To get an FAA certificate you need to follow this URL,
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/flightinstruction/5-9-8.htm
where all is explained.
Its a bit of a pain as you have to nominate an American
FSDO to visit in the US to complete your paperwork, but once
done, a permanent certificate will follow,
-- Andrew
If you have an existing FAA license there is no problem.
If you have a JAA UK license then in order to fly your
N-reg outside the UK on that JAR-PPL you either need
to have a specific waiver from that country to allow you
to fly there with your UK license, a license for that country
or an FAA certificate derived from your existing UK license.
To get an FAA certificate you need to follow this URL,
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/flightinstruction/5-9-8.htm
where all is explained.
Its a bit of a pain as you have to nominate an American
FSDO to visit in the US to complete your paperwork, but once
done, a permanent certificate will follow,
-- Andrew
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Thanks Andrew. Currently I have a UK/JAA PPL, but I am shortly going to get my FAA PPL so it should be no problem.
The reason for the two PPLs, apart from eliminating any problems with flying N-reg, is that
(1) I will do FAA IR (building on my FAA PPL) - as getting IR is the UK is hopeless
(2) As far as I know, the FAA PPL never expires (or at least not every 5 years as the UK PPL does)
(3) It's always better to have two PPLs "just in case" (you lose one, etc.)
This may be a bit of good advice to others - if you already have your UK PPL and are in the USA e.g. hour building, you may as well get a FAA PPL while your're there - you already have the theory (there are a couple of good FAA mock exam books you can swot up from on your way over) and the skills so you should sail through - with the minimum of extra cost. You never know when the FAA PPL may come in handy!
The reason for the two PPLs, apart from eliminating any problems with flying N-reg, is that
(1) I will do FAA IR (building on my FAA PPL) - as getting IR is the UK is hopeless
(2) As far as I know, the FAA PPL never expires (or at least not every 5 years as the UK PPL does)
(3) It's always better to have two PPLs "just in case" (you lose one, etc.)
This may be a bit of good advice to others - if you already have your UK PPL and are in the USA e.g. hour building, you may as well get a FAA PPL while your're there - you already have the theory (there are a couple of good FAA mock exam books you can swot up from on your way over) and the skills so you should sail through - with the minimum of extra cost. You never know when the FAA PPL may come in handy!
I made the mistake of importing a used aircraft from the USA. Never again ! By the time I had got it here, onto the British Register and all bills paid I had added about 80% to the original purchase price for the aircraft. There was virtually nothing wrong with it either ! 
Over the years I reckon I have done my financial bit for GA with renting aircraft etc., but never to the generous extent that I did with adding one aircraft to the G-reg !
Avoid.
Sorry.
Over the years I reckon I have done my financial bit for GA with renting aircraft etc., but never to the generous extent that I did with adding one aircraft to the G-reg !
Avoid.
Sorry.
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Spittingimage,
I think I cunningly spotted your mistake. What on Earth possessed you to re-register the aircraft as G???
The only reason why anyone should want to do that as far as I know is if you are operating the a/c for hire or reward in the UK - and if you are, you are a commercial operator and all sorts of other considerations need to be taken into account.
If you are a PRIVATE flyer and buy an N-reg and keep it as N-reg, you not only benefit from the considerably lower purchase cost and choice, but have other benefits thrown in (e.g. more relaxed maintenance requirements). Plus you can fly on an FAA IR in Europe (again, much cheaper/easier to get)!
The only dragon is the VAT.
I think I cunningly spotted your mistake. What on Earth possessed you to re-register the aircraft as G???
The only reason why anyone should want to do that as far as I know is if you are operating the a/c for hire or reward in the UK - and if you are, you are a commercial operator and all sorts of other considerations need to be taken into account.
If you are a PRIVATE flyer and buy an N-reg and keep it as N-reg, you not only benefit from the considerably lower purchase cost and choice, but have other benefits thrown in (e.g. more relaxed maintenance requirements). Plus you can fly on an FAA IR in Europe (again, much cheaper/easier to get)!
The only dragon is the VAT.
Well spotted, piotr, sir !
OK, let me modify my earlier posting here by saying that I would never again import an aircraft and put it onto the British Register. (She won't let me !)
OK, let me modify my earlier posting here by saying that I would never again import an aircraft and put it onto the British Register. (She won't let me !)
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Pioter
Start a UK company.
Register the trust to the UK company.
The UK company pay the VAT.
The UK company reclaime the VAT.
The UK company nominate the Polish company as the operator
You save the VAT and no benefit in kind either.
Other then this the C.I trusts companies are expansive, speak with the guy from Norwich Tom something.
To do the flying that want to do you need a de-iced twin. If you buy a single you will have to accept that sometime you will not make it and that you will not be able to fly at night as many countries do not allow SE night operations.
Start a UK company.
Register the trust to the UK company.
The UK company pay the VAT.
The UK company reclaime the VAT.
The UK company nominate the Polish company as the operator
You save the VAT and no benefit in kind either.
Other then this the C.I trusts companies are expansive, speak with the guy from Norwich Tom something.
To do the flying that want to do you need a de-iced twin. If you buy a single you will have to accept that sometime you will not make it and that you will not be able to fly at night as many countries do not allow SE night operations.
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not a black art !
The more I have to do with the joke that is JAA flight crew licencing the more I think that keeping the aircraft on the american register is a good idea.
How ever putting an aircraft on the UK register should not cost a lot more than the CAA fees and an annual check.
But you must do your homework , the aircraft must be standard and without a lot of these Mods that you see in the USA , you should make shure that the things required in the UK are done such as aditional CAA AD,s , low volts and starter warning lights and the radio fit is up to european standards , the most important thing is to get all the paperwork to back this up.
If you get all this done in the USA it will cost you half as much as it will this side of the atlantic , I think that this way you can save about 20% on the cost of an aircraft and the aircraft will be in better condition than the average UK example and so will continue to save you money in the long run.
How ever putting an aircraft on the UK register should not cost a lot more than the CAA fees and an annual check.
But you must do your homework , the aircraft must be standard and without a lot of these Mods that you see in the USA , you should make shure that the things required in the UK are done such as aditional CAA AD,s , low volts and starter warning lights and the radio fit is up to european standards , the most important thing is to get all the paperwork to back this up.
If you get all this done in the USA it will cost you half as much as it will this side of the atlantic , I think that this way you can save about 20% on the cost of an aircraft and the aircraft will be in better condition than the average UK example and so will continue to save you money in the long run.
Last edited by A and C; 18th Jan 2003 at 13:48.
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Come again?
piotr
The reason for the two PPLs, apart from eliminating any problems with flying N-reg, is that
(1) I will do FAA IR (building on my FAA PPL) - as getting IR is the UK is hopeless
(my bolding)
What does this actually mean please?
The reason for the two PPLs, apart from eliminating any problems with flying N-reg, is that
(1) I will do FAA IR (building on my FAA PPL) - as getting IR is the UK is hopeless
(my bolding)
What does this actually mean please?
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Rustle,
In the States, to get FAA IR (assuming you have reasonable flying experience/confidence) takes 3-4 weeks, written & oral test, then flight test. Approx. 40 hours of dual time in total. It also counts as IMC on return to UK. Cost? Less than $5,000 I should think.
Last time I checked in the UK (admittedly about a year ago), because of the new JAA changes to IR qualification/training, only a couple of schools were offering IR in the UK, I was quoted approx. 9 months elapsed, and substantially more than $5,000. Things may have settled down since - but what I meant by "hopeless" is that the UK qualification is inordinately expensive & time-consuming, for no apparent benefit over the US qualification.
If I am out of date - please let me know!
In the States, to get FAA IR (assuming you have reasonable flying experience/confidence) takes 3-4 weeks, written & oral test, then flight test. Approx. 40 hours of dual time in total. It also counts as IMC on return to UK. Cost? Less than $5,000 I should think.
Last time I checked in the UK (admittedly about a year ago), because of the new JAA changes to IR qualification/training, only a couple of schools were offering IR in the UK, I was quoted approx. 9 months elapsed, and substantially more than $5,000. Things may have settled down since - but what I meant by "hopeless" is that the UK qualification is inordinately expensive & time-consuming, for no apparent benefit over the US qualification.
If I am out of date - please let me know!
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easy on the pocket hard on the skills.
Having got a british CPL/IR I needed to get an FAA CPL/IR the cost of all the flying ,exams and flight test was less than the fees for the CAA ground exams !.
But dont think for one second that the FAA flight test will be easy , it was far harder that the CAA flight test but much more practical.
But dont think for one second that the FAA flight test will be easy , it was far harder that the CAA flight test but much more practical.
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Slipping back on topic.....
I bought the Aztec from a broker in Gloucester. He mentioned in passing that the previous owner had operated it out of Alderney, but only conversationally.
Many years later (4ish?) I was asked to present myself to C & E at LHR. I was interviewed under caution on tape. It seems that VAT should have been paid, but because I bought it in mainland UK I never gave it any thought.
C & E (who were actually very pleasant about everything) allowed me just to pay the VAT (plus some interest? I can't remember).
Just a little cautionary tale.
W
I bought the Aztec from a broker in Gloucester. He mentioned in passing that the previous owner had operated it out of Alderney, but only conversationally.
Many years later (4ish?) I was asked to present myself to C & E at LHR. I was interviewed under caution on tape. It seems that VAT should have been paid, but because I bought it in mainland UK I never gave it any thought.
C & E (who were actually very pleasant about everything) allowed me just to pay the VAT (plus some interest? I can't remember).
Just a little cautionary tale.
W
