How Do The Caa Know?
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How Do The Caa Know?
HI GUYS
A FRIEND ASKED ME THE OTHER DAY HOW THE CAA KNOW IF YOU HAVE FLOWN THE REQUIRED AMOUNT OF HOURS EACH YEAR TO STAY CURRENT AND IF WHAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR LOG BOOK IS ALL TRUE........A QUESTION I COULDNT PUT AN ANSWER TO .......CAN ANY OF YOU?
A FRIEND ASKED ME THE OTHER DAY HOW THE CAA KNOW IF YOU HAVE FLOWN THE REQUIRED AMOUNT OF HOURS EACH YEAR TO STAY CURRENT AND IF WHAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR LOG BOOK IS ALL TRUE........A QUESTION I COULDNT PUT AN ANSWER TO .......CAN ANY OF YOU?
Why do it if it's not fun?
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If you want to fake entries in your log-book, that's your choice. The chances are the CAA won't look twice, unless they have reason to.
But if they do have reason to, they will. They can check your log-book against logs for the aircraft, or against booking-in sheets at airfields, or against ATC recordings..... and if they discover that you've been faking entries, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes!
The next question is why would you want to fake 12 hours every two years? The fact is, if this is all you've flown, you're not going to be safe anyway, and you'll need to spend some time with an instructor getting up to speed. I wouldn't like to share the skies with anyone who flies so few hours that they need to fake entries to maintain currency... let alone anyone who would actually have so little respect for the rules that they would actually do it.
FFF
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But if they do have reason to, they will. They can check your log-book against logs for the aircraft, or against booking-in sheets at airfields, or against ATC recordings..... and if they discover that you've been faking entries, I wouldn't like to be in your shoes!
The next question is why would you want to fake 12 hours every two years? The fact is, if this is all you've flown, you're not going to be safe anyway, and you'll need to spend some time with an instructor getting up to speed. I wouldn't like to share the skies with anyone who flies so few hours that they need to fake entries to maintain currency... let alone anyone who would actually have so little respect for the rules that they would actually do it.
FFF
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Just a minor correction...its 12 hours in the final year 
When you re-validate, you have to have an examiners signature, which means that theoretically he's meant to examine your logbook. Forgetting the legal stance, if you fake entries, you'll probably get away with it, there is no way the CAA could check entries, especially if your hours have been abroad. You do need an hour with a JAA instructor though, and I'd like to think that most instructors would not countersign your logbook if your flying is crap.
As FFF says, is it really worth faking entries [not suggesting you would, but in general]? If a person fakes entries and has an accident, no doubt the magnifiying glass will be brought out, and if any descrepancies are found ramifications could be very serious, like null and void insurance, even jail terms, assuming that the person hasn't already managed to kill themselves.
Cheers
EA
When you re-validate, you have to have an examiners signature, which means that theoretically he's meant to examine your logbook. Forgetting the legal stance, if you fake entries, you'll probably get away with it, there is no way the CAA could check entries, especially if your hours have been abroad. You do need an hour with a JAA instructor though, and I'd like to think that most instructors would not countersign your logbook if your flying is crap.
As FFF says, is it really worth faking entries [not suggesting you would, but in general]? If a person fakes entries and has an accident, no doubt the magnifiying glass will be brought out, and if any descrepancies are found ramifications could be very serious, like null and void insurance, even jail terms, assuming that the person hasn't already managed to kill themselves.
Cheers
EA
I used to be quite friendly with an old boy who worked at the CAA and asked this very question.
Apparently, and let this be a warning to those contemplating it, the people who go through log books at the Belgrano are quite good at spotting bogus entries. A quick phone call to the airport or aircraft operator is all that's required to verify any suspicions.
Most of this was targeted at the so-called 'flying from home' brigade, principally people hours building for commercial licences.
Obviously if your logbook never needs submitting, they are less likely to catch up with you.
Don't do it. Just not worth it.
S
Apparently, and let this be a warning to those contemplating it, the people who go through log books at the Belgrano are quite good at spotting bogus entries. A quick phone call to the airport or aircraft operator is all that's required to verify any suspicions.
Most of this was targeted at the so-called 'flying from home' brigade, principally people hours building for commercial licences.
Obviously if your logbook never needs submitting, they are less likely to catch up with you.
Don't do it. Just not worth it.
S
The Original Whirly
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OK, let's get this straight first; I wouldn't fake hours under any circumstances whatsoever!
BUT...
I fly helicopters regularly, but need 12 hours every second year to keep my f/w PPL. With around 200 f/w hours, and lots of helicopter flying practice, I find a f/w hour every couple of months keeps me current enough that I feel safe, and those (including instructors) who've flown with me think I am. BUT it's not enough for the CAA. So I need to do 12 hours this year (and I will, I'll re-emphasise that). But if I owned my own f/w aircraft, who's to know? If I did the hours abroad, and borrowed a privately owned aircraft, who could check up? Who would even bother?
As I've already said twice, I wouldn't do it. And I'm probably not typical anyway. But for the sake of accuracy, are you really telling me it can't be done?
BUT...
I fly helicopters regularly, but need 12 hours every second year to keep my f/w PPL. With around 200 f/w hours, and lots of helicopter flying practice, I find a f/w hour every couple of months keeps me current enough that I feel safe, and those (including instructors) who've flown with me think I am. BUT it's not enough for the CAA. So I need to do 12 hours this year (and I will, I'll re-emphasise that). But if I owned my own f/w aircraft, who's to know? If I did the hours abroad, and borrowed a privately owned aircraft, who could check up? Who would even bother?
As I've already said twice, I wouldn't do it. And I'm probably not typical anyway. But for the sake of accuracy, are you really telling me it can't be done?
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Just to back up what Splat said.
They are very good at checking the log books,
They caught my FI on a genuine mistake logging student solo authorisations.
They do check thouroughly.
Besides could you live with yourself if you killed someone while not current because you lied over twelve hours
They are very good at checking the log books,
They caught my FI on a genuine mistake logging student solo authorisations.
They do check thouroughly.
Besides could you live with yourself if you killed someone while not current because you lied over twelve hours
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Just remember the story of the first officer for a charter airline who was caught a couple of years ago. He had allegedly invented a whole military flying career, on the back of which he ended up right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. Rumour has it that the questions were asked when he went for a Command Assessment course and one of the training captains came from the same squadron as this bloke had chosen to adopt...!
Checks were made and the whole thing unravelled. Another version I heard was that he was STILL inventing flying hours in his new job and got caught through false expense claims. Apparently his logbook was a work of art including all the necessary military flying checks countersigned etc!!
Another one was a guy who made up his night hours to get his ATPL (old style). A quick query to the flying club showed the aircraft actually flew in broad daylight.... End of a promising career.
But apart from the risk of getting caught, why would you want to falsify it?? It's ultimately YOUR life on the line if you profess to have more experience than you really do.
Checks were made and the whole thing unravelled. Another version I heard was that he was STILL inventing flying hours in his new job and got caught through false expense claims. Apparently his logbook was a work of art including all the necessary military flying checks countersigned etc!!
Another one was a guy who made up his night hours to get his ATPL (old style). A quick query to the flying club showed the aircraft actually flew in broad daylight.... End of a promising career.
But apart from the risk of getting caught, why would you want to falsify it?? It's ultimately YOUR life on the line if you profess to have more experience than you really do.
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Clang! Mind your fingers!
That was the sound of a door with bars on it being slammed behind you.
If you deliberately falsify your logbook and as a consequence of that deception gain a job that you would not otherwise have gained , you commit an offence under the Theft Act.
It is a piece of legislation - part of The Theft Act - entitled 'obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception'.
On conviction, you could well end up making Jeffrey Archers tea.
I'll go one step further and say that there is a very good chance of a custodial sentence on first conviction. Courts don't like this type of offence i.e. where the safety of the GenPub is even remotely/ potentialy compromised.
Why are questions of this nature even being asked?
Yes you will get away with it until something goes wrong and your career is examined.
The answer was surely obvious.
HP
If you deliberately falsify your logbook and as a consequence of that deception gain a job that you would not otherwise have gained , you commit an offence under the Theft Act.
It is a piece of legislation - part of The Theft Act - entitled 'obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception'.
On conviction, you could well end up making Jeffrey Archers tea.
I'll go one step further and say that there is a very good chance of a custodial sentence on first conviction. Courts don't like this type of offence i.e. where the safety of the GenPub is even remotely/ potentialy compromised.
Why are questions of this nature even being asked?
Yes you will get away with it until something goes wrong and your career is examined.
The answer was surely obvious.
HP
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Why are questions of this nature even being asked?
It is all about trust but as stated if the smelly stuff hits the circulating air dispersal device expect to be found out.
Makes a change from the 'I am 40, am I too old to be a commercial pilot?' - 'Which Florida flying school should I go to?' type questions.
28th,,
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With privileges come responsibilities.
Falsifying flight time is not the behaviour of a responsible person in my opinion.
As has been said earlier, this is an honour system, but god help you if you transgress and have an incident becasue the teeth of the comb used in the subsequent enquiry are very fine indeed.
Also, don't forget that a pilot falsifying records may well be "shopped" by other members of the flying community if there is a concern about safety etc.
Falsifying flight time is not the behaviour of a responsible person in my opinion.
As has been said earlier, this is an honour system, but god help you if you transgress and have an incident becasue the teeth of the comb used in the subsequent enquiry are very fine indeed.
Also, don't forget that a pilot falsifying records may well be "shopped" by other members of the flying community if there is a concern about safety etc.
The Original Whirly
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What an emotive issue this is!
We seem to have three questions here. The one everybody's answering is "Should you fake logbook entries?" and of course the answer is no. However, the one most people are asking is "Could you fake entries and get away with it?". And the third unasked question is "Is it OK to ask the second of these questions?". Some people seem to think not. But why? If I sit and muse about a foolproof way to rob a bank, does that mean I'm going to do it? Does it mean that somebody reading it, who had no plans to rob a bank before, and no idea how to do it, would now say: "Wow, I can do it now and get away with it!". Do people go from honesty to dishonesty that easily? Do we think our fellow pilots do? What's really going on here?
We seem to have three questions here. The one everybody's answering is "Should you fake logbook entries?" and of course the answer is no. However, the one most people are asking is "Could you fake entries and get away with it?". And the third unasked question is "Is it OK to ask the second of these questions?". Some people seem to think not. But why? If I sit and muse about a foolproof way to rob a bank, does that mean I'm going to do it? Does it mean that somebody reading it, who had no plans to rob a bank before, and no idea how to do it, would now say: "Wow, I can do it now and get away with it!". Do people go from honesty to dishonesty that easily? Do we think our fellow pilots do? What's really going on here?
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There's cheating and cheating...
The way I was taught to log time was in "decimal hours", rather than hours and minutes - so six minutes = 0.1 = shortest loggable time.
Then, because it's not "flying time" but 'first move with the intention of flight to stopping' - AKA block-to-block time - you add 6 minutes (0.1) to either side of t/o and landing time. That's the way the school charged, so that's what was logged.
So, first solo was 0.3 (18 minutes) and 5 * night full-stop landings were 0.3 each - and I don't fly from Elstree
Those extra 0.2 every flight soon add up. Is that cheating?
The way I was taught to log time was in "decimal hours", rather than hours and minutes - so six minutes = 0.1 = shortest loggable time.
Then, because it's not "flying time" but 'first move with the intention of flight to stopping' - AKA block-to-block time - you add 6 minutes (0.1) to either side of t/o and landing time. That's the way the school charged, so that's what was logged.
So, first solo was 0.3 (18 minutes) and 5 * night full-stop landings were 0.3 each - and I don't fly from Elstree
Those extra 0.2 every flight soon add up. Is that cheating?
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Yes the CAA do look
When I was going for the CPL myself and a mate put the log books into the CAA at the same time , I was instructing at the time and he had perchased an aircraft to get his hours.
My log book came back quite quickly (for the CAA ) his took some time and it became clear that the CAA had checked the movment logs at a number of airfields to see if his log book entrys were genuine.
My log book came back quite quickly (for the CAA ) his took some time and it became clear that the CAA had checked the movment logs at a number of airfields to see if his log book entrys were genuine.
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As a side issue, in response to FFF's post.
Sometimes it cannot be helped to fly just the few hours to keep current, due to financial reasons, or whatever. After all, it's a very expensive hobby and I suspect there are a number of people in this situation!
I realise it's not ideal , but if you are a club member and fly so few hours, the likelihood is that you are having quite a number of checkrides with instructors, perhaps moreso than someone who flies solo regularly.
It doesn't necessarily mean you are unsafe if you are a less frequent flyer. The benefit is that it very much prevents bad habits developing. Emergency situations are always thrown into checkrides (or should be) so they are pretty much fresh in mind. Is this the case in regular fliers, where complacency could possibly creep in?
Sometimes it cannot be helped to fly just the few hours to keep current, due to financial reasons, or whatever. After all, it's a very expensive hobby and I suspect there are a number of people in this situation!
I realise it's not ideal , but if you are a club member and fly so few hours, the likelihood is that you are having quite a number of checkrides with instructors, perhaps moreso than someone who flies solo regularly.
It doesn't necessarily mean you are unsafe if you are a less frequent flyer. The benefit is that it very much prevents bad habits developing. Emergency situations are always thrown into checkrides (or should be) so they are pretty much fresh in mind. Is this the case in regular fliers, where complacency could possibly creep in?
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Time on the ground
Rustle, I understand your "6 minutes before t/o, 6 minutes after" -that's trying to reflect what I always understood should be used in the logbook - "the time in command of the aircraft".
Having crawled down the taxiway at Elstree once on a busy day for over 20 minutes, which I logged, I'm not even sure your "6 minutes" is always enough ...
Having crawled down the taxiway at Elstree once on a busy day for over 20 minutes, which I logged, I'm not even sure your "6 minutes" is always enough ...
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Yep, word of warning to any fool thinkng of trying this scam; THE CAA DO CHECK YOUR LOGS.
Recently, a young friend of mine did his IMC at a flight school in scotland, and sent his logbook away at pretty much the same time as the CAA did an audit of this school (they had only recently aquired an AOC)
Result? 8 weeks for a logbook to be returned to him, and when he next flew with the school it transpired that the CAA bods had went through the schools logs with a fine toothcomb; even going so far as to check ATC booking out logs and so on to confirm it was all genuine....apparently they even checked to see the ILS landings in his book were real and as documented by the tower.
If this isnt warning enough, please ask yourself this; if you have accrued the means to gain your ppl, then surely you can somehow raise the necessary funds to keep current. Credit card, overdraft...anything?!?
Dont do it anyone - you may kill yourself, or worse, someone else.
Recently, a young friend of mine did his IMC at a flight school in scotland, and sent his logbook away at pretty much the same time as the CAA did an audit of this school (they had only recently aquired an AOC)
Result? 8 weeks for a logbook to be returned to him, and when he next flew with the school it transpired that the CAA bods had went through the schools logs with a fine toothcomb; even going so far as to check ATC booking out logs and so on to confirm it was all genuine....apparently they even checked to see the ILS landings in his book were real and as documented by the tower.
If this isnt warning enough, please ask yourself this; if you have accrued the means to gain your ppl, then surely you can somehow raise the necessary funds to keep current. Credit card, overdraft...anything?!?
Dont do it anyone - you may kill yourself, or worse, someone else.
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Don't understand why you have to do 12 hours in the last year, when one flight with an examiner will do. Its much cheaper.
For those who fiddle log book entries, the going rate in a UK court is about £400 per forged line! Then the CAA can say is this a fit person to hold a licence, and take it away!
For those who fiddle log book entries, the going rate in a UK court is about £400 per forged line! Then the CAA can say is this a fit person to hold a licence, and take it away!
