Log book question (re:check flight)
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Log book question (re:check flight)
I recently flew a check flight (with instructor) to remain current at a flying club.
Do I log it as P1 U/S or should it be PUT?. Looking at the CAA notes I'm fairly sure it's P1 U/S but I forgot to ask the instructor so I thought I'd check with you guys...
Thanks in advance
SZF
Do I log it as P1 U/S or should it be PUT?. Looking at the CAA notes I'm fairly sure it's P1 U/S but I forgot to ask the instructor so I thought I'd check with you guys...
Thanks in advance
SZF
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Oh dear, you've opened a hornet's nest here!
The "definitive" answer is in GID44 (I think) which I'm sure someone can provide a link to. The only problem is, um, well, GID44 doesn't answer the question!
The only time P1US is mentioned is with respect to a skills test which you pass. However, that doesn't exclude you from using it for other things. And the situation you're asking about, although very common, isn't mentioned anywhere in the document.
You'll find opinion split 50/50 on this one. For what it's worth, I always log these flights as PUT. I figure better safe than sorry - if I log P1US and some insurance company or CAA official decides that it should be PUT, then I've over-logged my time and that could cause problems. On the other hand, if I log PUT and someone thinks it should be the other way around, then I've under-logged, and no one really cares about that. I'm really not so desperate for P1 time that the odd hour here and there is going to make any difference.
Others will disagree with me, though. The best advice is to read GID44 and make up your own mind.
FFF
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The "definitive" answer is in GID44 (I think) which I'm sure someone can provide a link to. The only problem is, um, well, GID44 doesn't answer the question!
The only time P1US is mentioned is with respect to a skills test which you pass. However, that doesn't exclude you from using it for other things. And the situation you're asking about, although very common, isn't mentioned anywhere in the document.
You'll find opinion split 50/50 on this one. For what it's worth, I always log these flights as PUT. I figure better safe than sorry - if I log P1US and some insurance company or CAA official decides that it should be PUT, then I've over-logged my time and that could cause problems. On the other hand, if I log PUT and someone thinks it should be the other way around, then I've under-logged, and no one really cares about that. I'm really not so desperate for P1 time that the odd hour here and there is going to make any difference.
Others will disagree with me, though. The best advice is to read GID44 and make up your own mind.
FFF
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If the instructor was P.1, then, as a PPL, you can only log P.u/t time (dual) for the check flight.
My understanding is that the only time a PPL can log P.1/s is on a successful flight test with an examiner (skills test, IMC, etc.)
My understanding is that the only time a PPL can log P.1/s is on a successful flight test with an examiner (skills test, IMC, etc.)
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I've seen on Pprune and in various magazines that a lot of people view P/UT in a very negative light. Just becuase you already have a license doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't have further tuition. If a qualified instuctor has gone along with you on a flight with the intention of instructing, checking or making the flight legal, and is in a position to take control on the aircraft if you screw up, then the instuctor is in command of the plane (P1) and you are under tuition (P/UT).
Why do it if it's not fun?
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There is another option, of course, which is for you to log P1, and your instructor to not log at all. This must be agreed in advance between you and the instructor, so probably wouldn't apply in this case - but I thought I'd mention it just to confuse you further!
FFF
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FFF
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If it is a successful check, then I tell the pilot to book it as P1 and I will countersign it if required. I then don't book any time myself.
If it is unsuccessful, i.e I had to intervene with decision making or handling at any time in the interests of flight safety, then it is Put and I would book P1 as an instructor.
P1s, as stated before, is only for successful flight tests with an examiner.
If it is unsuccessful, i.e I had to intervene with decision making or handling at any time in the interests of flight safety, then it is Put and I would book P1 as an instructor.
P1s, as stated before, is only for successful flight tests with an examiner.
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Firtstly, does it matter what you log it as, unless you are desperate for hours then it probably doesn't.
If the instructor doesn't sign it then it can't be P1S it must be Dual.
As for the Instructor not logging the flight; for any instructional flight the Instructor should log PIC regardless.
The real problem is that the Guidance, GID 44 CAP 54 doesn't really cover this case hence the reference to a hornets nest. So why not look at what the law says?
Art 28 says that you should log your operating capacity!
There is nothing in the law that prohibits two pilots logging flight time in a single pilot aeroplane! ( but don't try and count the same hours where only one pilot operates)
If you conducted a training flight with an instructor it is DUAL; end of story.
If you are qualified, and did a checkout in which the instructor gave no instruction, then it is quite within the law to log it as P1S because it meets the requirements of Art 28. The PIC should endorse the log.
Even if the checkout pilot is not an instructor, there is no reason in law why you should not log P1S provide both pilots are qualified and it was not for the purpose of qualifying for a licence or rating.
All of the published guidance is to indicate what hours are countable for the purpose of qualification for licences and ratings. If that is not a critical issue, its your log book, and provided you stay within the simple reqirements of Art 28 you can log whatever you like.
If the instructor doesn't sign it then it can't be P1S it must be Dual.
As for the Instructor not logging the flight; for any instructional flight the Instructor should log PIC regardless.
The real problem is that the Guidance, GID 44 CAP 54 doesn't really cover this case hence the reference to a hornets nest. So why not look at what the law says?
Art 28 says that you should log your operating capacity!
There is nothing in the law that prohibits two pilots logging flight time in a single pilot aeroplane! ( but don't try and count the same hours where only one pilot operates)
If you conducted a training flight with an instructor it is DUAL; end of story.
If you are qualified, and did a checkout in which the instructor gave no instruction, then it is quite within the law to log it as P1S because it meets the requirements of Art 28. The PIC should endorse the log.
Even if the checkout pilot is not an instructor, there is no reason in law why you should not log P1S provide both pilots are qualified and it was not for the purpose of qualifying for a licence or rating.
All of the published guidance is to indicate what hours are countable for the purpose of qualification for licences and ratings. If that is not a critical issue, its your log book, and provided you stay within the simple reqirements of Art 28 you can log whatever you like.
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IMHO this is a case of two pilots both legally entiltled to fly the aircraft on a flight not for the purposes of a formal (i.e. CAA/JAR etc.) examination. Therefore it should always be decided in advance who is the commander and only he/she logs the time, as P1.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Mark,
I'm surprised that you don't decide until after the flight who was P1 - I've never heard of that before. Is it you or your student who is responsible for making decisions? This is something which must be decided before you fly - and whoever has ultimate responsibility is P1.
Also, if there is an accident, the AAIB will want to know who was P1 - and if you haven't decided beforehand, then both you and your student could attempt to claim that the other was P1.
I've only logged P1 with an instructor on board once. He made it very clear before we went near the aircraft that I was P1, and he was along for the ride and would not be logging the time. If I have an instructor sat next to me, and the instructor hasn't told me I'm P1, then the instructor is P1, which probably means that I'll check that the instructor is happy with my decisions before proceeding.
FFF
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I'm surprised that you don't decide until after the flight who was P1 - I've never heard of that before. Is it you or your student who is responsible for making decisions? This is something which must be decided before you fly - and whoever has ultimate responsibility is P1.
Also, if there is an accident, the AAIB will want to know who was P1 - and if you haven't decided beforehand, then both you and your student could attempt to claim that the other was P1.
I've only logged P1 with an instructor on board once. He made it very clear before we went near the aircraft that I was P1, and he was along for the ride and would not be logging the time. If I have an instructor sat next to me, and the instructor hasn't told me I'm P1, then the instructor is P1, which probably means that I'll check that the instructor is happy with my decisions before proceeding.
FFF
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School Check Flights
Despite the very helpful postings above, & previous threads, I am still confused concerning the correct logging of "school" check flights. i.e. flights that are not required under CAA, JAR or any other regulations, but are required by a school before it will hire you an aircraft.
My last such flight was a few weeks ago, & as I always do for school check flights, I logged it as P1S, but was this correct?
I hold a Night Rating, but I had not flown anything at night for nearly 2 years. Legally, under the wonders of JAA, I could have flown a SEP or MEP, at night, on my own, so long as I did not take a passenger, until after I had done one landing.
Under the school's Pilot Order Book, I was not considered "current" for night flying. So I booked a GA7, plus the CFI (who is an examiner, of course, but was not flying in that capacity for that flight). I practised circuits, plus a cross country to find a point nominated by the CFI, & back to the airfield. At no time did the CFI touch the controls, but, as usual during the flight, he did give me his comments, as to what I did that was good, bad or indifferent!
He countersigned my log book, for the flight.
So, was I correct in putting it down as P1S ?
(PS I am not in need of hours towards anything)
My last such flight was a few weeks ago, & as I always do for school check flights, I logged it as P1S, but was this correct?
I hold a Night Rating, but I had not flown anything at night for nearly 2 years. Legally, under the wonders of JAA, I could have flown a SEP or MEP, at night, on my own, so long as I did not take a passenger, until after I had done one landing.
Under the school's Pilot Order Book, I was not considered "current" for night flying. So I booked a GA7, plus the CFI (who is an examiner, of course, but was not flying in that capacity for that flight). I practised circuits, plus a cross country to find a point nominated by the CFI, & back to the airfield. At no time did the CFI touch the controls, but, as usual during the flight, he did give me his comments, as to what I did that was good, bad or indifferent!
He countersigned my log book, for the flight.
So, was I correct in putting it down as P1S ?
(PS I am not in need of hours towards anything)
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I wouldn't profess to know chapter and verse on this, but what I do is this:
P1S can only be logged for a successful examination, eg GFT.
P1 means you are in charge. I have at times taken along an instructor for a bit of moral support, and in this case I would log it as P1.
If I am doing something I have to, for example a school check flight, I will log it as PUT.
I agree with the above comments about under and over logging - better to be safe than sorry
P1S can only be logged for a successful examination, eg GFT.
P1 means you are in charge. I have at times taken along an instructor for a bit of moral support, and in this case I would log it as P1.
If I am doing something I have to, for example a school check flight, I will log it as PUT.
I agree with the above comments about under and over logging - better to be safe than sorry
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Distaff,
The reason you're confused is because there is no definitive answer. There are three options any time a licensed pilot flies a single-pilot aircraft of the appropriate class with an instructor, and is not actually undergoing training:
[list=1][*]You log PUT. This is always the "safe" option - there is nothing in the regs which suggests this could be wrong.[*]You log P1US. Although this is not forbidden by the regs, it's not specifically allowed either, and people can (and do) debate for hours on whether it's correct or not.[*]You log P1, and your instructor doesn't log. This would be illegal in your case, since you weren't current for carrying passengers at night. Even if you were current, it should only be done with prior agreement with your instructor, since he will need to be aware that he has no official capacity on that flight and that you are in charge.[/list=1]
That isn't exactly simple, and doesn't give you the absolute answer you want, but it's as simple as I can make it!
FFF
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The reason you're confused is because there is no definitive answer. There are three options any time a licensed pilot flies a single-pilot aircraft of the appropriate class with an instructor, and is not actually undergoing training:
[list=1][*]You log PUT. This is always the "safe" option - there is nothing in the regs which suggests this could be wrong.[*]You log P1US. Although this is not forbidden by the regs, it's not specifically allowed either, and people can (and do) debate for hours on whether it's correct or not.[*]You log P1, and your instructor doesn't log. This would be illegal in your case, since you weren't current for carrying passengers at night. Even if you were current, it should only be done with prior agreement with your instructor, since he will need to be aware that he has no official capacity on that flight and that you are in charge.[/list=1]
That isn't exactly simple, and doesn't give you the absolute answer you want, but it's as simple as I can make it!
FFF
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Distaff,
I agree with FFF. You cannot log P1/S as the flight was not for the issue or renewal of a legal rating. You cannot log P1 as that would make your companion the passenger whom you were not priveleged to carry at the time. Hence PUT.
However (and as stated above this should be agreed in advance) once you had completed a take off and landing you would then have been legal to carry passengers at night and could have "assumed command" and logged the rest of the flight P1.
I agree with FFF. You cannot log P1/S as the flight was not for the issue or renewal of a legal rating. You cannot log P1 as that would make your companion the passenger whom you were not priveleged to carry at the time. Hence PUT.
However (and as stated above this should be agreed in advance) once you had completed a take off and landing you would then have been legal to carry passengers at night and could have "assumed command" and logged the rest of the flight P1.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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And, just so that you don't have to take our word for it, here's the link to GID44 - Recording of Flight Time - the closest you'll come to an official answer.
FFF
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FFF
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FFF,
I agree 100% with your 1-2-3 review of the options.
Personally I always log PUT when I fly with an instructor. It doesn't bother me what my ratio of P1: PUT is; I'm not trying to impress anyone.
I also agree with your comments re Mark's practice of waiting until the flight is over to decide who was P1. While his motives are good, this decision needs to be made before the flight, for fairly obvious reasons.
MLS-12D
I agree 100% with your 1-2-3 review of the options.
Personally I always log PUT when I fly with an instructor. It doesn't bother me what my ratio of P1: PUT is; I'm not trying to impress anyone.
I also agree with your comments re Mark's practice of waiting until the flight is over to decide who was P1. While his motives are good, this decision needs to be made before the flight, for fairly obvious reasons.
MLS-12D
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Thanks very much to all who responded. I have logged the flight as PUT. Looking back, it was fairly obvious that the instructor was taking the P1 role and although I am a wannabe ATPL holder, I think I can make do without that extra 30mins P1 time! 
