Red Diesel
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Red Diesel
As recreational boats and canal craft can use red diesel (about 27p/ltr), does anyone know if we can use it in light aircraft? I am awaiting an answer from customs and excise.
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Red diesel
Call Mark Wilksh on 01280 822208.
He is developing a series of GA diesel engines and will answer all your questions about fuel.
Worth a chat as opposed to an EMail - he is a very interesting man indeed as well as being one of the worlds leading authorities on the subject.
BB
He is developing a series of GA diesel engines and will answer all your questions about fuel.
Worth a chat as opposed to an EMail - he is a very interesting man indeed as well as being one of the worlds leading authorities on the subject.
BB
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This a real anomaly - Red Diesel is only for use in farm vehicles BUT you can use it on the road if you want to take the chance of detection.
Marine Diesel is similarly low-priced and is intended for use in marine engines BUT you could use it in a diesel vehicle on the road too.
Avgas costs the earth but you can only use it in the air because if you put it in your car, the lead in it will poison the catalyst at great expense to replace it.
So the fuels on which it is possible to cheat, are low-tax, the one on which is difficult to cheat is highly taxed.
Marine Diesel is similarly low-priced and is intended for use in marine engines BUT you could use it in a diesel vehicle on the road too.
Avgas costs the earth but you can only use it in the air because if you put it in your car, the lead in it will poison the catalyst at great expense to replace it.
So the fuels on which it is possible to cheat, are low-tax, the one on which is difficult to cheat is highly taxed.
Flies for fun
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My knowledge of red diesel is a bit dated now but it was the same as road diesel except for the red dye which helps Customs to identify it (no special road duty on it) and road diesel has additives which help protect the engine. A red diesel can have a high sulphur content which is most unkind to the pistons and bores of the infernal combustion engine so an aditive is useful to provide additional lubrication. The exhaust emmisions also tend to be smokier and smellier than road diesel because of the impurities and lack of additives.
Oh and it isn't a substitute for avgas, diesel requires a completely different sort of engine.
Oh and it isn't a substitute for avgas, diesel requires a completely different sort of engine.
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diesel requires a completely different sort of engine
Cheers
Diesel engines in light aircraft are designed to run on Jet.
The reason for this (apart from availability at airfields) is the poor cold-temperature properties of diesel as opposed to Jet. Jet has a freeze point spec of -47 max. Diesel has a CFPP spec (not exactly freeze point but near enough) of -5C (Summer) & -15C (winter). That might sound enough, but diesel flow gets very sluggish within 5 deg of CFPP, and with a lapse rate of 3 deg/1000 feet (remember your met?) problems could easily be encountered while flying.
Contrary to popular belief, there isn't a huge difference in price either; the current price per ton for Jet is $236.75 and for Diesel is $224.63 (excluding road duty)
'Red' diesel appears to be cheap for 2 reasons - primarily as it does not incur road duty, and secondly, as Sensible noted earlier, it can have a higher sulphur specification, and is therefore slightly cheaper to produce. The current price per ton for red diesel is $217.13
The reason for this (apart from availability at airfields) is the poor cold-temperature properties of diesel as opposed to Jet. Jet has a freeze point spec of -47 max. Diesel has a CFPP spec (not exactly freeze point but near enough) of -5C (Summer) & -15C (winter). That might sound enough, but diesel flow gets very sluggish within 5 deg of CFPP, and with a lapse rate of 3 deg/1000 feet (remember your met?) problems could easily be encountered while flying.
Contrary to popular belief, there isn't a huge difference in price either; the current price per ton for Jet is $236.75 and for Diesel is $224.63 (excluding road duty)
'Red' diesel appears to be cheap for 2 reasons - primarily as it does not incur road duty, and secondly, as Sensible noted earlier, it can have a higher sulphur specification, and is therefore slightly cheaper to produce. The current price per ton for red diesel is $217.13
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Englishal:
Some links to get you informed:
http://www.aeronexx.com (SMA/Renault ground up aero engine)
http://www.centurion-engines.com (Thielert converted Mercedes Engine)
The SMA is around 300 horse. Thielert 120 horse though they going a lot larger for the next one
I believe Thielert tried red diesel - it ran but not efficiently.
Just seen an add on AFORS asking for a C172 with dead engine, so they can fit the Centurion. That's one flying club I would want to belong too
Some links to get you informed:
http://www.aeronexx.com (SMA/Renault ground up aero engine)
http://www.centurion-engines.com (Thielert converted Mercedes Engine)
The SMA is around 300 horse. Thielert 120 horse though they going a lot larger for the next one
I believe Thielert tried red diesel - it ran but not efficiently.Just seen an add on AFORS asking for a C172 with dead engine, so they can fit the Centurion. That's one flying club I would want to belong too
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Sensible, you're not very sensible if you think I was going to put diesel in my C90. Brought up on a farm, and running a diesel car I am familiar with diesel properties, it is the legal poition I can't find the answer to.
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Red Diesel
As I understand it, red diesel, can only be used legally in vehicles that are classified as agrcultural vehicles, eg tractors & combine-harvesters. Many farmers keep tanks of red diesel on thier farms, for this purpose. However, it is illegal for such farmers to use the red diesel in any other non-agrcultural vehicles they own, such as a car or lorry, or even for the farm house central heating boiler.
The red dye in the duty-free diesel, is designed to stain the engine on a fairly permenant basis. I understand that the usual method that C & E use on spot checks of suspect vehicles, is to remove the fuel injectors, as these will be red.
So, I would imagine that it would be illegal to run an aircraft on red diesel, even if this was a suitable fuel. All the so-called "diesel" aircraft piston engines that I have heard about, are designed to run on Jet A1.
The red dye in the duty-free diesel, is designed to stain the engine on a fairly permenant basis. I understand that the usual method that C & E use on spot checks of suspect vehicles, is to remove the fuel injectors, as these will be red.
So, I would imagine that it would be illegal to run an aircraft on red diesel, even if this was a suitable fuel. All the so-called "diesel" aircraft piston engines that I have heard about, are designed to run on Jet A1.
Without trying to bore anyone with to much technical stuff here; but we're comparing Apples and Oranges.
The current trend toward development of aero-diesel engines is to provide access to one of the most common fuel sources around (especially at airports) - Jet Fuel.
Although Diesel is the colloquial term for any Diesel fuel there are a number of particular and subtle differences between the refined varieties of diesel fuel and their applications.
Jet Fuel (Jet A-1, A-50 , etc) is identical to what refiners term #1 Diesel, or #1 Stove Oil. In order to define and qualify a fuel as Jet Fuel, the product needs to conform to a delivery quality control and batching system. The final bulk delivery would be filtered through an anhydrous clay filter, to ensure that all refining and transportation surfactants are removed from the product. Certain vendors will add additives (anti-icers, etc) to the fuel to produce their special brew.
All the bulk product delivered from the refiner conforms to the Jet-A standard and may be removed and downgraded from the QC system and delivered in it's various commercial identifications (#1 diesel, #1 Stove, etc.), as required by the consumer.
#2 Diesel, the automotive brand is an entirely different product, designed for automotive internal combustion engines. Significantly, it has added oil and sulphur in order to improve lubrication. It is NOT interchangeable with #1 diesel - it is a wholly different product and is (generally) not suited for use in Jet engines.
(You can blend your own #2 by adding oil to #1 diesel.)
The flight manuals for any of these aviation applications will clearly define the list of approved fuels, and in some cases the list will actually include non-aviation fuels including #1 Diesel, Arctic Diesel or some other variant of the same product. Many of these alternate fuels include the requirement that the alternate fuel be refined to ASTM-1655, so we come back to the beginning, and the refining cycle of all the original bulk fuel that starts life out as Jet-Fuel!
If you are still awake at the end of all this, I hope it answered a part of your question.
The current trend toward development of aero-diesel engines is to provide access to one of the most common fuel sources around (especially at airports) - Jet Fuel.
Although Diesel is the colloquial term for any Diesel fuel there are a number of particular and subtle differences between the refined varieties of diesel fuel and their applications.
Jet Fuel (Jet A-1, A-50 , etc) is identical to what refiners term #1 Diesel, or #1 Stove Oil. In order to define and qualify a fuel as Jet Fuel, the product needs to conform to a delivery quality control and batching system. The final bulk delivery would be filtered through an anhydrous clay filter, to ensure that all refining and transportation surfactants are removed from the product. Certain vendors will add additives (anti-icers, etc) to the fuel to produce their special brew.
All the bulk product delivered from the refiner conforms to the Jet-A standard and may be removed and downgraded from the QC system and delivered in it's various commercial identifications (#1 diesel, #1 Stove, etc.), as required by the consumer.
#2 Diesel, the automotive brand is an entirely different product, designed for automotive internal combustion engines. Significantly, it has added oil and sulphur in order to improve lubrication. It is NOT interchangeable with #1 diesel - it is a wholly different product and is (generally) not suited for use in Jet engines.
(You can blend your own #2 by adding oil to #1 diesel.)
The flight manuals for any of these aviation applications will clearly define the list of approved fuels, and in some cases the list will actually include non-aviation fuels including #1 Diesel, Arctic Diesel or some other variant of the same product. Many of these alternate fuels include the requirement that the alternate fuel be refined to ASTM-1655, so we come back to the beginning, and the refining cycle of all the original bulk fuel that starts life out as Jet-Fuel!
If you are still awake at the end of all this, I hope it answered a part of your question.
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Cyclic Hotline - Am I right in thinking, that with the new generation of "diesel" aircraft engines, the situation would be similar to existing engines:-
For existing "petrol" aircraft engines - We don't use anything other than Avgas, unless the aircraft is specifically certified to use Mogas.
So, for the new "diesel" engines - Don't use anything other than Avtur - Jet A1, unless the aircraft is specifically certified to use some sort of road diesel?
For existing "petrol" aircraft engines - We don't use anything other than Avgas, unless the aircraft is specifically certified to use Mogas.
So, for the new "diesel" engines - Don't use anything other than Avtur - Jet A1, unless the aircraft is specifically certified to use some sort of road diesel?
The new generation of diesel reciprocating engines are designed to be operated on Jet-A. This is primarily because this is the fuel you buy at the airport, and is pretty much available everywhere.
Many Buses run on #1 diesel, mainly because of the operating cycle, but more particularly because they will run cleaner causing less pollution - so the technology to run piston engines on this fuel is not new.
Existing gas/petrol piston engines, (like any product) may be qualified for fuels other than those specified by the FM/POH by an STC, or other regulatory approval.
In the instance of these diesel engines, I do not have access to the Type Certificate Data Sheets or fuel specs. Both the engines linked from this thread simply specify Jet Fuel or Diesel, so I really could not qualify an answer to that. If the engines were approved for regular diesel, then you could certainly go ahead and use it, but specifically, if you use a non-approved fuel, you invalidate the basis of certification, as you no longer conform to the TC.
These engines are an excellent technological advance, and are really the way forward in General Aviation - very exciting!
Many Buses run on #1 diesel, mainly because of the operating cycle, but more particularly because they will run cleaner causing less pollution - so the technology to run piston engines on this fuel is not new.
Existing gas/petrol piston engines, (like any product) may be qualified for fuels other than those specified by the FM/POH by an STC, or other regulatory approval.
In the instance of these diesel engines, I do not have access to the Type Certificate Data Sheets or fuel specs. Both the engines linked from this thread simply specify Jet Fuel or Diesel, so I really could not qualify an answer to that. If the engines were approved for regular diesel, then you could certainly go ahead and use it, but specifically, if you use a non-approved fuel, you invalidate the basis of certification, as you no longer conform to the TC.
These engines are an excellent technological advance, and are really the way forward in General Aviation - very exciting!
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DeltaHawk is another company who is developing a Aviation Diesel Engine.
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
Neil
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/
Neil
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Diesel fuel - Jet fuel OLD NEWS
Didn't you watch top gear a couple of weeks ago. The new fuel for us all is Veg oil (with a little white spirit).
I even hear Boing are about to test a 744 with it on Feb 29th.
Tesco's here we come....
Didn't you watch top gear a couple of weeks ago. The new fuel for us all is Veg oil (with a little white spirit).
I even hear Boing are about to test a 744 with it on Feb 29th.
Tesco's here we come....
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The new fuel for us all is veg oil
It is apparently illegal to use this, unless you pay over the duty & VAT to Customs & Excise.
Police & C & E, are therefore stopping all cars, with exhausts that smell strongly of FISH
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Red diesel is a huge tax concession to poor farmers, bankrupt builders etc for use in their non-road engines and plant.
In case anyone is toying with the idea of running their diesel engined road vehicle on red, remember that HM Customs & Excise are not as ineffective or sensitive as HM Inland Revenue.
Evasion of duty, although just another 'tax fiddle', is regarded as a serious offence and may well result in the seizure and destruction of your vehicle as well as a hefty sentence.
In case anyone is toying with the idea of running their diesel engined road vehicle on red, remember that HM Customs & Excise are not as ineffective or sensitive as HM Inland Revenue.
Evasion of duty, although just another 'tax fiddle', is regarded as a serious offence and may well result in the seizure and destruction of your vehicle as well as a hefty sentence.
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So will a diesel car run on Jet-A1 ? I assume its not red, so customs and exercise wouldn't be able to do you for running red diesel. At 2hundredandsomethingquid a tonne, its almost worth getting a big tank installed in my garage My car ran on Avgas ok, I had to 'borrow' some to get home from the airport during the fuel strikes last year. Mind you it was a 1984 Ford Sierra, so pretty low tech, and needed plenty of lead to function.
On the subject of getting caught using RD, only customs can test your vehicle, not the police, but the customs need the police to stop you. You're really only likely to get caught if you're a crusty at a rave....[but even then then your penalty will be that the local authority will pay to get your truck fixed and road worthy and then send you on your way with a cheery wave....
]
EA
My car ran on Avgas ok, I had to 'borrow' some to get home from the airport during the fuel strikes last year. Mind you it was a 1984 Ford Sierra, so pretty low tech, and needed plenty of lead to function.On the subject of getting caught using RD, only customs can test your vehicle, not the police, but the customs need the police to stop you. You're really only likely to get caught if you're a crusty at a rave....[but even then then your penalty will be that the local authority will pay to get your truck fixed and road worthy and then send you on your way with a cheery wave....
]EA
Back in the early 80's I came across a Hughes 500 that the owner was illegally running on red diesel. The give away was the red stain on the edp fuel filter. More alarming was the water tide mark half way up the filter. I reckon the fact that the engine was mounted at an angle as opposed to horizontal was saving the idiots life. Commercial diesel has a very high water contact naturally and below standard storage conditions add to the water content. Given the price of avtur is your life worth so little?
On the subject of dieselcars running on avtur, yes they will.
The lack of lubricity compared with diesel can lead to injector pump seizure, not cheap.
Colour is not the only thing customs and excise check. Apparently they have a new device which they insert into the exhaust gas flow, they also check specific gravity.
Go get your car crushed make their day, they are not nice people.
On the subject of dieselcars running on avtur, yes they will.
The lack of lubricity compared with diesel can lead to injector pump seizure, not cheap.
Colour is not the only thing customs and excise check. Apparently they have a new device which they insert into the exhaust gas flow, they also check specific gravity.
Go get your car crushed make their day, they are not nice people.