View Poll Results: what should we do about NOTAMS?
Do nothing until after the meeting
56
53.85%
Not much we can do as users
5
4.81%
Start asking newspapers and politicians NOW
43
41.35%
Voters: 104. This poll is closed
The NOTAM/NATS/AIS meeting, 15th November. Vote here.
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Does this mean that 40 people have written to their MPs and/or newspapers?
All you lot have to do is copy/paste it into Word than print it out and send it off......Easy
I want to call your attention to the recent changes in NOTAM service that has been implemented by NATS/AIS (National Air Traffic Services/Air Information Services)
NOTAMs (Notices to Airmen) are a vital service by which current operational matters are made known to pilots. Recent examples affecting myself are a change in instrument approach procedures at Farnborough, a large crane operating close to Blackbushe, various “temporary restricted areas” (TRA’s) due to scene-of-crime investigations or foot-and-mouth etc., and parachute jumps and Red Arrows displays in the vicinity of Farnborough/Blackbushe/Camberley.
In the interests of flight safety, it is critical that pilots should be able to get this kind of information easily.
I’m sure I don’t need to explain that the outcome of not having this information could be disastrous.
Until 21st August 2002 NOTAMS were promulgated by daily navigation bulletins that were very easy to get from the AIS website. (www.ais.org.uk)
These are known as A1 & A8 bulletins.
The A1/A8 NOTAMS were sorted by Latitude (first) then by Longitude, such that finding NOTAMs that may affect your flight was relatively simple: You knew the Lat/Long co-ordinates of the area where you would be flying so you checked those NOTAMs.
The changes made by NATS on their website have made information very much harder to get and use.
The output is no longer sorted by Lat/Long, but by “type” and alphabetically by ICAO code. (Most airfields worldwide have an ICAO code, all UK fields starting EG. So Heathrow is EGLL, Farnborough is EGLF, Gatwick is EGKK, and Blackbushe is EGLK etc.)
Sorting alphabetically by ICAO is useless when you are attempting to get some situational awareness of an area, as the codes do not work that way!
The other major issue with the new system is “missing” NOTAMs – there are many reported cases of data appearing in the old A1/A8 format, but not appearing on the new issue…
During 2002, the CAA commissioned an independent trio of pilots into a team, known as the “On Track Team”
The following text is taken from their website (www.flyontrack.co.uk)
We are a team of three independent (non CAA) pilots, who have been asked by the CAA to have a fresh look at the whole subject of Airspace Infringements from the pilot’s perspective, under a project entitled “On Track”.
Although there is considerable information through the normal reporting system, less detail is available on why infringements happen. It is only after we know why they occur that improvements to “the system” can be made. “On Track” aims to collect as much of this detail as possible, to identify causes and promote suggested improvements.
The “On Track” initiative was the first time General Aviation (“GA”) pilots could contribute, anonymously if required, to a safety “forum” – especially in the realm of airspace “busts”.
The scale of disappointment of the NATS changes is easy to see if one has a look at the comments on the “On Track” message board.
The “New AIS Service” thread dwarfs anything else on there.
Comments are not only from GA pilots but air traffic controllers (ironically some employed by NATS).
Were that insufficient feedback, there is a thread running on PPRuNe (Professional Pilot’s Rumour Network) in the Private Flying forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...&threadid=66083)
This thread now has over 120 contributions again with many from air traffic controllers as well as pilots.
The situation is very dangerous. Some airfields are without NOTAM information. Some pilots are without NOTAM information.
The A1 & A8 bulletins which we relied upon previously are still produced daily by NATS/AIS. They have simply ceased to be available to GA pilots or regional airfields. This adds insult to injury.
The A1 & A8 data is available to “MARS” terminals – these terminals are in all BAA airfields, Jersey, and several other locations – and the underlying data (including the Lat/Long info) is still input by NATS/AIS.
(MARS = Met. and AIS Retrieval System)
It is because of the numerous shortcomings of the new AIS website, and the knowledge that A1/A8 data is still available that GA and others are increasingly frustrated with NATS.
Yesterday, 11/9/2002, NATS released a statement regarding the new offering, and it failed to address one issue that had been raised either directly to NATS or via one of the forums mentioned above. (Which NATS insist they are monitoring)
See: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/..._11-09-2002.pdf
I have raised an “MOR” (Mandatory Occurrence Report) regarding NATS/AIS due to the failings of the new system. This forces the CAA Safety Data Department to investigate further.
I am aware that several other pilots either have done, or will do, the same.
I have also written to the Air Accident Investigation Board (“AAIB”) to ask if they can lend some weight to our request for changes at NATS/AIS.
Without some additional pressure, hopefully from yourselves, we cannot possibly fight our corner.
So what do we, GA pilots, actually want?
1. A return to the daily A1 & A8 NOTAM briefings, available on the AIS website – as described above, this data already exists so a simple URL will solve this problem. (This at least until all of the problems with the new system are resolved)
2. A reasoned reply to all of the (growing) requests from ATC and pilots, and not “spin” per the current announcement.
3. Some dialogue between NATS/AIS and the users of the system! If the old website had mentioned this new service offering* most of these issues would never have arisen.
* The changes to AIS information were announced in an AIC (Air Information Circular) in May 2002. Ref: AIC 54/2002 (Yellow 85) 30 May
4. A genuine trial-period, so that users can use both old and new systems, gain confidence that nothing is missing, and learn how to use the new system properly
Please help us!
Please ask the Minister concerned why this situation has been allowed to spiral out of control.
Please ask NATS/AIS what they are actually doing about the situation.
Many thanks for your time, and assistance.
Signed.
NOTAMs (Notices to Airmen) are a vital service by which current operational matters are made known to pilots. Recent examples affecting myself are a change in instrument approach procedures at Farnborough, a large crane operating close to Blackbushe, various “temporary restricted areas” (TRA’s) due to scene-of-crime investigations or foot-and-mouth etc., and parachute jumps and Red Arrows displays in the vicinity of Farnborough/Blackbushe/Camberley.
In the interests of flight safety, it is critical that pilots should be able to get this kind of information easily.
I’m sure I don’t need to explain that the outcome of not having this information could be disastrous.
Until 21st August 2002 NOTAMS were promulgated by daily navigation bulletins that were very easy to get from the AIS website. (www.ais.org.uk)
These are known as A1 & A8 bulletins.
The A1/A8 NOTAMS were sorted by Latitude (first) then by Longitude, such that finding NOTAMs that may affect your flight was relatively simple: You knew the Lat/Long co-ordinates of the area where you would be flying so you checked those NOTAMs.
The changes made by NATS on their website have made information very much harder to get and use.
The output is no longer sorted by Lat/Long, but by “type” and alphabetically by ICAO code. (Most airfields worldwide have an ICAO code, all UK fields starting EG. So Heathrow is EGLL, Farnborough is EGLF, Gatwick is EGKK, and Blackbushe is EGLK etc.)
Sorting alphabetically by ICAO is useless when you are attempting to get some situational awareness of an area, as the codes do not work that way!
The other major issue with the new system is “missing” NOTAMs – there are many reported cases of data appearing in the old A1/A8 format, but not appearing on the new issue…
During 2002, the CAA commissioned an independent trio of pilots into a team, known as the “On Track Team”
The following text is taken from their website (www.flyontrack.co.uk)
We are a team of three independent (non CAA) pilots, who have been asked by the CAA to have a fresh look at the whole subject of Airspace Infringements from the pilot’s perspective, under a project entitled “On Track”.
Although there is considerable information through the normal reporting system, less detail is available on why infringements happen. It is only after we know why they occur that improvements to “the system” can be made. “On Track” aims to collect as much of this detail as possible, to identify causes and promote suggested improvements.
The “On Track” initiative was the first time General Aviation (“GA”) pilots could contribute, anonymously if required, to a safety “forum” – especially in the realm of airspace “busts”.
The scale of disappointment of the NATS changes is easy to see if one has a look at the comments on the “On Track” message board.
The “New AIS Service” thread dwarfs anything else on there.
Comments are not only from GA pilots but air traffic controllers (ironically some employed by NATS).
Were that insufficient feedback, there is a thread running on PPRuNe (Professional Pilot’s Rumour Network) in the Private Flying forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...&threadid=66083)
This thread now has over 120 contributions again with many from air traffic controllers as well as pilots.
The situation is very dangerous. Some airfields are without NOTAM information. Some pilots are without NOTAM information.
The A1 & A8 bulletins which we relied upon previously are still produced daily by NATS/AIS. They have simply ceased to be available to GA pilots or regional airfields. This adds insult to injury.
The A1 & A8 data is available to “MARS” terminals – these terminals are in all BAA airfields, Jersey, and several other locations – and the underlying data (including the Lat/Long info) is still input by NATS/AIS.
(MARS = Met. and AIS Retrieval System)
It is because of the numerous shortcomings of the new AIS website, and the knowledge that A1/A8 data is still available that GA and others are increasingly frustrated with NATS.
Yesterday, 11/9/2002, NATS released a statement regarding the new offering, and it failed to address one issue that had been raised either directly to NATS or via one of the forums mentioned above. (Which NATS insist they are monitoring)
See: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/image/..._11-09-2002.pdf
I have raised an “MOR” (Mandatory Occurrence Report) regarding NATS/AIS due to the failings of the new system. This forces the CAA Safety Data Department to investigate further.
I am aware that several other pilots either have done, or will do, the same.
I have also written to the Air Accident Investigation Board (“AAIB”) to ask if they can lend some weight to our request for changes at NATS/AIS.
Without some additional pressure, hopefully from yourselves, we cannot possibly fight our corner.
So what do we, GA pilots, actually want?
1. A return to the daily A1 & A8 NOTAM briefings, available on the AIS website – as described above, this data already exists so a simple URL will solve this problem. (This at least until all of the problems with the new system are resolved)
2. A reasoned reply to all of the (growing) requests from ATC and pilots, and not “spin” per the current announcement.
3. Some dialogue between NATS/AIS and the users of the system! If the old website had mentioned this new service offering* most of these issues would never have arisen.
* The changes to AIS information were announced in an AIC (Air Information Circular) in May 2002. Ref: AIC 54/2002 (Yellow 85) 30 May
4. A genuine trial-period, so that users can use both old and new systems, gain confidence that nothing is missing, and learn how to use the new system properly
Please help us!
Please ask the Minister concerned why this situation has been allowed to spiral out of control.
Please ask NATS/AIS what they are actually doing about the situation.
Many thanks for your time, and assistance.
Signed.
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Rustle, I'm not defending your MP but I suspect that the letter is so long that it exceeded his/her attention span. I've fired off an edited copy to my MP, but the original was more than two pages of 10 point text. I cut it down to less than one without missing much out, so hopefully that will get some response. I'm not holding my breath, but at least I've done something....
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Evo,
My MP is a "her", and she's in the opposition (!
!), so she's got plenty of time to read 2-page letters 
Nice one though - mail me a copy if you like - I have a massive folder of "feedback" should anyone doubt it on Friday
My MP is a "her", and she's in the opposition (!
!), so she's got plenty of time to read 2-page letters Nice one though - mail me a copy if you like - I have a massive folder of "feedback" should anyone doubt it on Friday
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Have a read of this:
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...5w02.html_wqn5
(Extract follows)
Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will make a statement on the state of faults on the UK NATS website; and when the faults will be rectified;[R] [79443]
5 Nov 2002 : Column 148W
(2) what representations he has received from UK pilots who have to log onto the Swedish air traffic service in order to obtain UK NOTAM for safety and time critical information owing to faults on the UK NATS website.[R] [79442]
Mr. Jamieson: National Air Traffic Services Ltd. introduced a new on-line information system in late August, replacing the former manual system. The change was made after extensive consultation with users. The new system is intended to provide much wider access to pre-flight information, thereby enhancing safety, but some general aviation users who are accustomed to the manual system have not found it easy to adapt.
The system is provided with back-up facilities and, while—as with most other similar websites—it may be necessary to suspend operation for very short periods, I am assured that the continuity of service will not be significantly compromised.
So who was consulted? Who is this Jamieson character who, basically, is suggesting that the problems are OUR fault?
Come on folks - this is outrageous
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...5w02.html_wqn5
(Extract follows)
Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) if he will make a statement on the state of faults on the UK NATS website; and when the faults will be rectified;[R] [79443]
5 Nov 2002 : Column 148W
(2) what representations he has received from UK pilots who have to log onto the Swedish air traffic service in order to obtain UK NOTAM for safety and time critical information owing to faults on the UK NATS website.[R] [79442]
Mr. Jamieson: National Air Traffic Services Ltd. introduced a new on-line information system in late August, replacing the former manual system. The change was made after extensive consultation with users. The new system is intended to provide much wider access to pre-flight information, thereby enhancing safety, but some general aviation users who are accustomed to the manual system have not found it easy to adapt.
The system is provided with back-up facilities and, while—as with most other similar websites—it may be necessary to suspend operation for very short periods, I am assured that the continuity of service will not be significantly compromised.
So who was consulted? Who is this Jamieson character who, basically, is suggesting that the problems are OUR fault?
Come on folks - this is outrageous
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There have been a number of postings critical of AOPA: as editor of the organisation's journal, General Aviation I can assure you that Martin Robinson has been active in contacting AIS and the other parties involved. His early involvement suggested that those involved had realised quite how badly they had gone wrong right from the start. On the understanding that the AIS team knew what had to be put right and were working hard to correct the problems, AOPA - rightly or wrongly - decided to avoid taking a public position in berating people who had made and owned up to mistakes that they seemed to be working hard to rectify.
Martin will be attending tomorrow's meeting (15 Nov) to firmly express AOPA's views on the joint NATS/AIS resposibility to produce an adequate and workable Notam system. There, of course, be a full report in GA—so AOPA members will soon learn what has been done on their behalf.
Interestingly, although there has been a request for comments on AOPA's website for some time, not one person has used this route to make their views known.
Martin will be attending tomorrow's meeting (15 Nov) to firmly express AOPA's views on the joint NATS/AIS resposibility to produce an adequate and workable Notam system. There, of course, be a full report in GA—so AOPA members will soon learn what has been done on their behalf.
Interestingly, although there has been a request for comments on AOPA's website for some time, not one person has used this route to make their views known.
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Philip
Which "others"?
When?
What are AOPA's views that will be firmly expressed?
Thanks in advance.
...active in contacting AIS and the other parties involved...
When?
...to firmly express AOPA's views...
Thanks in advance.
Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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Philip wrote:
"Interestingly, although there has been a request for comments on AOPA's website for some time, not one person has used this route to make their views known."
While I don't read the AOPA website as often as others (I have to dig out my membership card to find my number to log on), I don't recall seeing anything there about making views known on this (or indeed on much else).
I just looked again and couldn't find it.
Might be an idea to hide it less efficiently.
I was very surprised to hear that AOPA has been involved in discussions with AIS on this, as all the reports I've read about discussions and meetings with AIS have mentioned the same four people...
"Interestingly, although there has been a request for comments on AOPA's website for some time, not one person has used this route to make their views known."
While I don't read the AOPA website as often as others (I have to dig out my membership card to find my number to log on), I don't recall seeing anything there about making views known on this (or indeed on much else).
I just looked again and couldn't find it.
Might be an idea to hide it less efficiently.
I was very surprised to hear that AOPA has been involved in discussions with AIS on this, as all the reports I've read about discussions and meetings with AIS have mentioned the same four people...
PPruNaholic!
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AOPA WEBSITE - WHAT A JOKE!
I tried to login once - used the number on my card... no luck. Sent email to "help" address provided and got back a message saying basically "well it should work!?".. NO USE AT ALL! Have given up..
PW: take note mate!
PW: take note mate!
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I take note of all your comments. Those concerned with the website should be aware of them, but I will pass them on to AOPA as a matter of course...
It will be easier to expand on AOPA's position when Martin gets his notes from today's meeting to me, although you will understand that my prime responsibility is to knock them into shape for inclusion in the December issue of General Aviation (currently in production).
I am sorry that AOPA is not so hot on PR, because much more is going on than most people realise. (AOPA has an information officer, but no formal PR arrangement.) When I first came to aviation magazine editing, it was quite a revelation to discover how active the organisation is in speaking up for light aviation. There is only a handfull of full-time officers, but they work very hard.
We might debate chickens and eggs regarding the scale of representation, but the fact remains that, if more people joined...
It will be easier to expand on AOPA's position when Martin gets his notes from today's meeting to me, although you will understand that my prime responsibility is to knock them into shape for inclusion in the December issue of General Aviation (currently in production).
I am sorry that AOPA is not so hot on PR, because much more is going on than most people realise. (AOPA has an information officer, but no formal PR arrangement.) When I first came to aviation magazine editing, it was quite a revelation to discover how active the organisation is in speaking up for light aviation. There is only a handfull of full-time officers, but they work very hard.
We might debate chickens and eggs regarding the scale of representation, but the fact remains that, if more people joined...
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Meeting update
For an update on the meeting that took place at AIS Heathrow on Friday please go to:-
http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/news!.htm
Then get back here and start posting!
Mike
http://www.telecall.uk.com/ais/news!.htm
Then get back here and start posting!
Mike
Last edited by Mike Cross; 18th Nov 2002 at 21:16.
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Received a reply to my letter -
Dear ....
Thank you for your letter and the very clear explanation about the difficulties you are experiencing with NATS/AIS.
I would be happy to take this matter up with the Rt Hon John Spellar MP, the Minister responsible for aviation, and would like to include a copy of your letter. Would you please confirm that you have no objection to this <contact details snipped>.
Yours sincerely, Andrew Tyrie MP
So that's something. Rustle, could you drop me a note to confirm that you have no objections (as you wrote it - I just cut bits out ) and I will get back to him.
Dear ....
Thank you for your letter and the very clear explanation about the difficulties you are experiencing with NATS/AIS.
I would be happy to take this matter up with the Rt Hon John Spellar MP, the Minister responsible for aviation, and would like to include a copy of your letter. Would you please confirm that you have no objection to this <contact details snipped>.
Yours sincerely, Andrew Tyrie MP
So that's something. Rustle, could you drop me a note to confirm that you have no objections (as you wrote it - I just cut bits out
) and I will get back to him.
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How many ministers of aviation do we have
Talk about cooks and broth...
There's darling, jamieson, and now spellar!
(Maybe one is for unnecessary rule 5 changes, one for poorly implemented AIS provision, and one for ludicrous Mode S requirements)
Evo, I have no objection to your edited and signed (by you) version of my text going to any or all the above gents.
It's a shame my MP chose to do SFA about it - I may have to name and shame
I hope you also mentioned the raw data requirement??
(If you didn't mention it yet, tell him he can use the letter if he adds the raw data requirement)
Talk about cooks and broth...
There's darling, jamieson, and now spellar!
(Maybe one is for unnecessary rule 5 changes, one for poorly implemented AIS provision, and one for ludicrous Mode S requirements
)Evo, I have no objection to your edited and signed (by you) version of my text going to any or all the above gents.
It's a shame my MP chose to do SFA about it - I may have to name and shame
I hope you also mentioned the raw data requirement??
(If you didn't mention it yet, tell him he can use the letter if he adds the raw data requirement
)
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AOPA
With regard to AOPA's input on AIS.
Martin Robinson, CEO of AOPA, was at the meeting at Heathrow on 15 Nov and you can find his account at http://www.aopa.co.uk/newsfromaopa/aopanews.asp
The chairman was concerned that those attending should do so as representatives of users in general, rather than as representing any particular organisation, which accounts for the AOPA name not being more prominent.
Martin was particularly concerned at the meeting as to whether NATS were sufficiently committed in terms of the human and financial resources that they were deploying to sort out the problem. This is an area that is causing me some concern and it is good to have him dealing with it.
AOPA have already endorsed a submission that we have made to DAP regarding NATS reservations over the provision of raw data that is required to allow third-party programs such as NotamPlot and NotamPro to function.
AOPA have also signalled their endorsement of another document that we hope to put out in the next day or so.
Mike
Martin Robinson, CEO of AOPA, was at the meeting at Heathrow on 15 Nov and you can find his account at http://www.aopa.co.uk/newsfromaopa/aopanews.asp
The chairman was concerned that those attending should do so as representatives of users in general, rather than as representing any particular organisation, which accounts for the AOPA name not being more prominent.
Martin was particularly concerned at the meeting as to whether NATS were sufficiently committed in terms of the human and financial resources that they were deploying to sort out the problem. This is an area that is causing me some concern and it is good to have him dealing with it.
AOPA have already endorsed a submission that we have made to DAP regarding NATS reservations over the provision of raw data that is required to allow third-party programs such as NotamPlot and NotamPro to function.
AOPA have also signalled their endorsement of another document that we hope to put out in the next day or so.
Mike
