Is the JAA PPL Dead?
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Popham
D-B: >>"I understand that a FAA IR holder, is automatically entitled to a UK IMC rating. But am I correct in assuming that he would therefore have to hold a CAA or JAR licence, to which the IMC rating could be attached?"
Affirm.
( But also it doesn't have to be FAA as the start point, I think anywhere in ICAO land could have an IMC in this way providing they also had a CAA or JAA PPL to house it.)
Affirm.
( But also it doesn't have to be FAA as the start point, I think anywhere in ICAO land could have an IMC in this way providing they also had a CAA or JAA PPL to house it.)
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
Irv – the question is why more people don’t transfer their syndicated aircraft to the N reg.
I think there are a few fundamental issues. The first is the only legal route is to place the aircraft in trust, short of having an American citizen in your syndicate who you all trust. Trusts are potentially complicated legal arrangements and whilst there are several specialist companies who deal with aircraft that does not guarantee the particular trust arrangements a given company offers will truly protect your asset should things go wrong. Secondly every member of the syndicate practically requires an FAA license –yes you can fly the aircraft on your JAR licence in the UK but most syndicated members will want to fly in Europe at some time which you cannot do. Yes an FAA license is relatively easy to come by but it is more paperwork to obtain and may make the sale of a members share less attractive because an N reg is an unknown entity. Then the FAA ticket has to be revalidated biannually which means finding an FAA examiner – not difficult, but a bit more difficult than a JAR examiner. Then a maintenance shop has to be found that is FAA certified – again not difficult , but a bit more difficult that CAA shops – and this is always supposing your aircraft will be accepted on the N register; broadly speaking if the aircraft was not manufactured in the States and there is not already one of your type on the N register a difficult if not impossible task. In short there are potentially lots of problems and some not insignificant costs to make the transfer in the first place. On the up side the ongoing costs of the trust are probably not much greater than the saving on doing away with the CAA C of A renewal fees and associated costs.
.. .. .. and all this is presupposing the CAA or FAA at some point dont legislate to prevent N reg aircraft operating in Europe, although I gather the consensus is this would be a difficult piece of legislation to pass and not politically acceptable. Who knows though folowing 9/11. What about every N reg aircraft shall make one landing and one take off in the States in each twelve mont period.
I would far rather see us all campaign for a realistically obtainable and maintainable European IR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think there are a few fundamental issues. The first is the only legal route is to place the aircraft in trust, short of having an American citizen in your syndicate who you all trust. Trusts are potentially complicated legal arrangements and whilst there are several specialist companies who deal with aircraft that does not guarantee the particular trust arrangements a given company offers will truly protect your asset should things go wrong. Secondly every member of the syndicate practically requires an FAA license –yes you can fly the aircraft on your JAR licence in the UK but most syndicated members will want to fly in Europe at some time which you cannot do. Yes an FAA license is relatively easy to come by but it is more paperwork to obtain and may make the sale of a members share less attractive because an N reg is an unknown entity. Then the FAA ticket has to be revalidated biannually which means finding an FAA examiner – not difficult, but a bit more difficult than a JAR examiner. Then a maintenance shop has to be found that is FAA certified – again not difficult , but a bit more difficult that CAA shops – and this is always supposing your aircraft will be accepted on the N register; broadly speaking if the aircraft was not manufactured in the States and there is not already one of your type on the N register a difficult if not impossible task. In short there are potentially lots of problems and some not insignificant costs to make the transfer in the first place. On the up side the ongoing costs of the trust are probably not much greater than the saving on doing away with the CAA C of A renewal fees and associated costs.
.. .. .. and all this is presupposing the CAA or FAA at some point dont legislate to prevent N reg aircraft operating in Europe, although I gather the consensus is this would be a difficult piece of legislation to pass and not politically acceptable. Who knows though folowing 9/11. What about every N reg aircraft shall make one landing and one take off in the States in each twelve mont period.
I would far rather see us all campaign for a realistically obtainable and maintainable European IR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 3rd November 2002 at 18:30.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
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From: 75N 16E
which means finding an FAA examiner
I think most members of an FAA sydicate will already be FAA licence holders, which is why they're looking into an N reg syndicate. Its something I've thought about long and hard and will one day do it....
A REALLY [relative term when talking about aircraft] cheap way to import an N reg is from Japan. Japan has some laws saying that after an aircraft is 10 years old, the main wing spar has to be removed and examined. This can cost upto $300,000 for a multi so is rarely worth doing. I know someone who bought a Seneca II in Japan for $15,000, and brought it back to the USA. As these aircraft are invariably built originally in the US, its not too hard to have the N reg reactivated by and FAA inspector. Cost him $25,000 to fly back, $15,000 of which were airline tickets for russian navigators and the FAA inspectors. a cheaper alternative would have been to ship the A/C back, which would have cost $1800 plus associated costs......Probably looking at $60,000 for a reasonable Seneca or similar, flying again on the N reg.
Anyway, there's ways and means....
Cheers
EA
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Yorkshire
You can revalidate your FAA IR in an approved flight training device, much cheaper therefore as have heard of £400 for Seneca I, (although I wouldnt recommend relying on this totally- you want to get in an aircraft at some point after all!) and as has already been pointed out all you need is a CFI not an examiner.
The other option these days which is becoming more attractive is to follow the FAA route and then convert to the JAA. A friend has recently done this and reckons he has saved a good few thousands of pounds- not to mention he now holds two licences rather than one.
I know of one flight school that has just started a Zero-ATPL including 250hrs RHS turbine for $42k (£28k), great if the currently weight restrictioins were not in place although they are working on a similar program which includes 250Hrs RHS of a 737 based in Europe. No prices for this one yet though.
The other option these days which is becoming more attractive is to follow the FAA route and then convert to the JAA. A friend has recently done this and reckons he has saved a good few thousands of pounds- not to mention he now holds two licences rather than one.
I know of one flight school that has just started a Zero-ATPL including 250hrs RHS turbine for $42k (£28k), great if the currently weight restrictioins were not in place although they are working on a similar program which includes 250Hrs RHS of a 737 based in Europe. No prices for this one yet though.
