Large Circuit Patterns
Is it really standard practice in the UK to teach that the turn onto downwind occurs after reaching circuit height?
If so, no wonder some circuits are large considering the performance of some a/c when heavy &/or on a hot day (Yeah, yeah, I know it's the UK, I just threw in the Temp. thing for accuracy...
)
Can't see the necessity for it, myself.
Oz & US both tend to the procedure of turning onto d/wind at a point that will give you an appropriate spacing. If circuit is not yet achieved then continue the climb during the turn & on d/wind.
Oz also prohibits the first turn after t/off until 500' and requires final to commence a minimum of 500m from the AD boundary although these rules are rarely significant factor. The 500' turn is probably the more significant of the two since it sets the starting height for X/wind.
If so, no wonder some circuits are large considering the performance of some a/c when heavy &/or on a hot day (Yeah, yeah, I know it's the UK, I just threw in the Temp. thing for accuracy...
)Can't see the necessity for it, myself.
Oz & US both tend to the procedure of turning onto d/wind at a point that will give you an appropriate spacing. If circuit is not yet achieved then continue the climb during the turn & on d/wind.
Oz also prohibits the first turn after t/off until 500' and requires final to commence a minimum of 500m from the AD boundary although these rules are rarely significant factor. The 500' turn is probably the more significant of the two since it sets the starting height for X/wind.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Agree - it's the turn to crosswind which is important, not the turn to downwind.
As long as you don't turn crosswind before 500', you will always be at circuit height (assuming a 1000' circuit or lower, and assuming a reasonably constant or improving rate of climb) before you pass abeam the upwind end of the runway, thus avoiding any danger of collision with joining traffic. And this would be true regardless of how tight you fly the downwind leg.
I should probably take back my statement that "I can't see any reason to not be at circuit height by the time you turn downwind" - that's not quite true. It probably comes about because I fly at an airfield with an 800' circuit, and some very wide published noise abatement circuits. Sorry for any confusion!
FFF
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As long as you don't turn crosswind before 500', you will always be at circuit height (assuming a 1000' circuit or lower, and assuming a reasonably constant or improving rate of climb) before you pass abeam the upwind end of the runway, thus avoiding any danger of collision with joining traffic. And this would be true regardless of how tight you fly the downwind leg.
I should probably take back my statement that "I can't see any reason to not be at circuit height by the time you turn downwind" - that's not quite true. It probably comes about because I fly at an airfield with an 800' circuit, and some very wide published noise abatement circuits. Sorry for any confusion!
FFF
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I say there boy
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I should also add that in the UK bomber circuits can take you outside the protection of ATZ and therefore out of a Tower controller's area of control. So once again tight circuits are (in theory at least) safer.
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Large circuits are problimatic for many reasons.
Large circuits are a by product of poor flight instructors.
Flying schools make more money using poor instructors.
So it all comes back to money.
By the way, the you need time to do all the checks and the work load is high is only an excuse for poor instructors.
Cat Driver:
::::::::::::::::
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Large circuits are a by product of poor flight instructors.
Flying schools make more money using poor instructors.
So it all comes back to money.
By the way, the you need time to do all the checks and the work load is high is only an excuse for poor instructors.
Cat Driver:
::::::::::::::::
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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Well, maybe the UK should standardize a bit. I am happier and used to flying Long Beach type tight ones (oohh errr), but when I did a dual check at a South Coast airport, I got a bollocking from the instructor for not being 10,000' away from the runway.
So what it boils down to is:
1) Fly the circuit pattern that is designed for the airport. That may include a bomber style circuit, or a nice tight one
2) If someone is training and is in front of you and is flying a bomber style circuit becasue they are not happy to fly a tighter one, in experienced, or need more time etc etc...then stop winging and let them fly it.
3) read Trevor Thom book one. You turn base when the end of the runway is at 45° unless you are asked to make a short approach or your engine fails (or see no. 2).
4) At un towered airports, unicom or radio airfields, talk to each other...."XYZ 3 mile final"..."ABC turning base behind XYZ"....
Rgds
EA
So what it boils down to is:
1) Fly the circuit pattern that is designed for the airport. That may include a bomber style circuit, or a nice tight one
2) If someone is training and is in front of you and is flying a bomber style circuit becasue they are not happy to fly a tighter one, in experienced, or need more time etc etc...then stop winging and let them fly it.
3) read Trevor Thom book one. You turn base when the end of the runway is at 45° unless you are asked to make a short approach or your engine fails (or see no. 2).
4) At un towered airports, unicom or radio airfields, talk to each other...."XYZ 3 mile final"..."ABC turning base behind XYZ"....
Rgds
EA
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Englishal:
Is there it mandatory to fly the wide circuit the instructor wanted or is it only his idea of a circuit?
If it is not manditory then ignore the instructor and fly a circuit that suits you and the airplane.
Cat Driver:
Is there it mandatory to fly the wide circuit the instructor wanted or is it only his idea of a circuit?
If it is not manditory then ignore the instructor and fly a circuit that suits you and the airplane.
Cat Driver:
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Skyyacht
Anyone who has been taught in the last few years at Shoreham knows that the recomended circuit pattern for runway 21 is:
After take off, Turn left at the coast not below 500 feet
Turn downwind when you see the warehouse with the blue door on the quayside at Shoreham Harbour
Head downwind towards the A27 tunnels
Turn left base overhead Tescos Superstore
Head towards the chimney
Turn final before you hit the chimney
I kid you not, instructors teach this. All very well until you visit a new airfield which suprise suprise doesn't have the above useful landmarks a similar pattern is used for runway 03...
Anyone who has been taught in the last few years at Shoreham knows that the recomended circuit pattern for runway 21 is:
After take off, Turn left at the coast not below 500 feet
Turn downwind when you see the warehouse with the blue door on the quayside at Shoreham Harbour
Head downwind towards the A27 tunnels
Turn left base overhead Tescos Superstore
Head towards the chimney
Turn final before you hit the chimney
I kid you not, instructors teach this. All very well until you visit a new airfield which suprise suprise doesn't have the above useful landmarks
a similar pattern is used for runway 03...
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They way that I ws taught to fly a pattern was turn crosswind at 500ft AGL, then make the downwind turn (regardless of height - two fairly large fella's in a 152 means that there is no way to be at circuit height at the turn onto downwind leg) with the end of the runway at about 45deg, and do the same turning onto base leg. I find that if I can stick with this it makes for a neat circuit.
If someone else extends the circuit, and it is feasible to slow down, then I do so and try and get the circuit back to a "normal" one. If this is not possible, then I live with it until the tower starts to make everyone tighten up.
If someone else extends the circuit, and it is feasible to slow down, then I do so and try and get the circuit back to a "normal" one. If this is not possible, then I live with it until the tower starts to make everyone tighten up.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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SimJock makes a very good point re. training, and the effect of noise-abatement circuits on training.
Instructors have a very difficult job to do, juggling the need to teach students a technique which will work on any runway with the need to keep the locals happy. But it's not impossible.
When I was taught circuits, my instructor taught me like this:
I was always taught to judge the circuit with regard to the runway. Then, I adjust the ideal circuit to take noise abatement procedures into account. The end result is that the circuits which I fly at my home airfield will be from landmark to landmark, as SimJock describes (traffic and other considerations permitting). But I've never had any problems flying circuits at other airfields - right from my first land-away as a student, I've been able to fly circuits where my usual landmarks have been absent. (Putting the 'plane down in one piece, though - well, that's a completely different issue!)
So yes, it is possible - so long as instructors don't teach their students to use the landmarks as the primary means of flying the circuit.
FFF
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Instructors have a very difficult job to do, juggling the need to teach students a technique which will work on any runway with the need to keep the locals happy. But it's not impossible.
When I was taught circuits, my instructor taught me like this:
Turn crosswind when you get to 500'. On this circuit, though, you also need to make sure you've gone past the church.
The downwind leg is normally flown so that the wingtip appears on the edge of the runway. Now, make sure you're outside that village over there, and note that the wingtip is a bit below the runway - we're further out than we would be in an ideal world, and that's because of those villages down there.
The base turn is normally made when the runway is 45 degrees behind you. But because we flew the downwind leg a little wide, the angle will be a little less on this circuit.
The downwind leg is normally flown so that the wingtip appears on the edge of the runway. Now, make sure you're outside that village over there, and note that the wingtip is a bit below the runway - we're further out than we would be in an ideal world, and that's because of those villages down there.
The base turn is normally made when the runway is 45 degrees behind you. But because we flew the downwind leg a little wide, the angle will be a little less on this circuit.
So yes, it is possible - so long as instructors don't teach their students to use the landmarks as the primary means of flying the circuit.
FFF
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A practicing bomber?
Hi all,
During a normal session of circuit flying I do about 1 circuit every 7 minutes. So in a flight of 50mins airborne time I do 7 circuits. Does this sound normal to most or am I flying bomber circuits? This is at an airfield pretty much at sea level with a 1000' circuit. The technique I use is turn onto crosswind once above 500' and turn downwind when ready, which is normally about 45° and just reaching circuit height 2POB in a C-152. When I first started flying I flew from Rand Airport, near Johannesburg. With a runway altitude of something like 5500', if I tried turning onto downwind at circuit height then I would certainly be off into the wilderness due to the reduced performance of the aircraft. If I can remember correctly most of the downwind leg was still in a climb. Based on these experiences I try not to judge my turn onto downwind leg on whether I have reached circuit height or not, but more on position relative to runway. I find being about 1.5 miles from the runway on downwind doesn't rush me or leave too much time for sight seeing (except when ATC asks for a few orbits!).
During a normal session of circuit flying I do about 1 circuit every 7 minutes. So in a flight of 50mins airborne time I do 7 circuits. Does this sound normal to most or am I flying bomber circuits? This is at an airfield pretty much at sea level with a 1000' circuit. The technique I use is turn onto crosswind once above 500' and turn downwind when ready, which is normally about 45° and just reaching circuit height 2POB in a C-152. When I first started flying I flew from Rand Airport, near Johannesburg. With a runway altitude of something like 5500', if I tried turning onto downwind at circuit height then I would certainly be off into the wilderness due to the reduced performance of the aircraft. If I can remember correctly most of the downwind leg was still in a climb
. Based on these experiences I try not to judge my turn onto downwind leg on whether I have reached circuit height or not, but more on position relative to runway. I find being about 1.5 miles from the runway on downwind doesn't rush me or leave too much time for sight seeing (except when ATC asks for a few orbits!).
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Hi,
I am currently a 31 hr student at White Waltham and totally agree with every thing Simjock and FlyingForFun said in their previous posts.
I clearly remember an incident that happened to me on my 2nd solo flight as a result of flying a wide circuit.
Just as I turned on to base leg, I saw an aircraft in front of me that caused me great concern because I was too close behind him. I had maintained a good lookout and to my knowledge only two aircraft accompanied me in the circuit: one in the overhead and the other who was descending on the deadside while I was crosswind. I was prepared to do a go-around if the aircraft hadn’t vacated the runway in time. Luckily he did and I managed to land with my heart intact.
When I got back to Operations, I was discussing the situation with my FI when all of a sudden another FI – who was doing his paperwork at the time – admitted that he was the pilot and told me that my circuit was very wide.
The reason for flying wide was down to: flying an unfamiliar circuit – White Waltham has six; Being taught to stick to noise abatement procedures; A high workload and also coming to terms with flying without someone in the right seat.
Part of the procedure for runway 03 at White Waltham which was the runway in use that day is: upon achieving a safe height, turn left to track about 010° to avoid both Foundation Park and Ridgeway School before turning crosswind.
In my case, I was put out by the fact that my crosswind would be naturally shorter than normal due to the 10° turn to the left after departure. Instead, I flew a longer crosswind than I should have for that particular circuit.
In addition to following noise abatement procedures, I think pilots and students in particular should follow the advise from authors like Jeremy Pratt and Trevor Thom which is to use the wingtips and tail of the aircraft to establish correct positioning in the circuit.
I am currently a 31 hr student at White Waltham and totally agree with every thing Simjock and FlyingForFun said in their previous posts.
I clearly remember an incident that happened to me on my 2nd solo flight as a result of flying a wide circuit.
Just as I turned on to base leg, I saw an aircraft in front of me that caused me great concern because I was too close behind him. I had maintained a good lookout and to my knowledge only two aircraft accompanied me in the circuit: one in the overhead and the other who was descending on the deadside while I was crosswind. I was prepared to do a go-around if the aircraft hadn’t vacated the runway in time. Luckily he did and I managed to land with my heart intact.
When I got back to Operations, I was discussing the situation with my FI when all of a sudden another FI – who was doing his paperwork at the time – admitted that he was the pilot and told me that my circuit was very wide.
The reason for flying wide was down to: flying an unfamiliar circuit – White Waltham has six; Being taught to stick to noise abatement procedures; A high workload and also coming to terms with flying without someone in the right seat.
Part of the procedure for runway 03 at White Waltham which was the runway in use that day is: upon achieving a safe height, turn left to track about 010° to avoid both Foundation Park and Ridgeway School before turning crosswind.
In my case, I was put out by the fact that my crosswind would be naturally shorter than normal due to the 10° turn to the left after departure. Instead, I flew a longer crosswind than I should have for that particular circuit.
In addition to following noise abatement procedures, I think pilots and students in particular should follow the advise from authors like Jeremy Pratt and Trevor Thom which is to use the wingtips and tail of the aircraft to establish correct positioning in the circuit.
I say there boy
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I can't say whether it's 'official' or not, but the technicque taught to me on my PPL at a certain large UK school, and the technique that I have been taught to teach on an FIC course at the same school is as follows:
Turn crosswind as soon above 500ft AAL as is safe, subject to traffic.
Turn downwind when your tailplane crosses the extended centreline (centreline for deadside joins).
On the downwind leg you should be no further away from the runway than the wingtip, when seen from the cockpit.
Turn base when the runway is 45 degrees behind the wing (this angle is different if you are allowing for drift).
This will give you a base to final turn at 600ft AAL, which means you are established on final at 500ft AAL/~1.5nm.
Obviously this is all notwithstanding local procedures, and other traffic.
As CPilotUK infers, I expect Messrs. Pratt and Thom have had a lot to do with this style of circuit.
cheers!
foggy.
Turn crosswind as soon above 500ft AAL as is safe, subject to traffic.
Turn downwind when your tailplane crosses the extended centreline (centreline for deadside joins).
On the downwind leg you should be no further away from the runway than the wingtip, when seen from the cockpit.
Turn base when the runway is 45 degrees behind the wing (this angle is different if you are allowing for drift).
This will give you a base to final turn at 600ft AAL, which means you are established on final at 500ft AAL/~1.5nm.
Obviously this is all notwithstanding local procedures, and other traffic.
As CPilotUK infers, I expect Messrs. Pratt and Thom have had a lot to do with this style of circuit.
cheers!
foggy.
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Well, I did a lovely tight circuit at EGCB today. Partial EFATO in the Chippy at 300 feet. Lots of misfiring and vibration. Transmitted "SL immediate return" and did a very close-in low level circuit to a gliding final turn right onto the runway.
I think a couple of 'bombers' went-around.
SSD
I think a couple of 'bombers' went-around.
SSD
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SSD and Beethoven - I'm a very newly qualified pilot at EGCB and often wonder whether I'm annoying anyone behind me when flying the "taught" circuit pattern. I must admit, my natural instinct is to turn base earlier. But without anything to compare with, I don't know whether my circuit pattern would be considered too wide or not! If I've turned base for 27 and have the Trafford Centre in my 11 o'clock... what would you say?
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Hi
I think that part of the reason why folks over here (UK) are reluctant to turn downwind below 1000ft (or whatever the circuit height at your particular field) is the fact that they could pop up in front of traffic joining onto downwind (from downwind/xwind/dead side)
Dont know about Oz but obviously the US join at 45 degrees to the circuit circumnavigates this problem nicely.
This thread in some form or another is also very popular on other forums.
Does this indicate that anyone who flies a wide circuit per definition does not sub to any of these forums or are we all 'guilty' of flying a wider circuit than we think!
I have certainly flown with folk who are self proclaimed 'tighters' and thought that they were flying wider than I would have done.
Have fun
FD
I think that part of the reason why folks over here (UK) are reluctant to turn downwind below 1000ft (or whatever the circuit height at your particular field) is the fact that they could pop up in front of traffic joining onto downwind (from downwind/xwind/dead side)
Dont know about Oz but obviously the US join at 45 degrees to the circuit circumnavigates this problem nicely.
This thread in some form or another is also very popular on other forums.
Does this indicate that anyone who flies a wide circuit per definition does not sub to any of these forums or are we all 'guilty' of flying a wider circuit than we think!
I have certainly flown with folk who are self proclaimed 'tighters' and thought that they were flying wider than I would have done.
Have fun
FD
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I think that it is one thing to criticise experienced pilots who without a care in the world fly huge circuits. But it is another thing all together to criticise a low hour PPL who may well be flying solo (pre- or post- qualification) and does wide circuits and simply wouldn't be able to cope with the workload of flying a tighter circuit. Problem is, when I'm flying behind another airplane, I have no idea which category the wide-circuiter ahead is in.
No doubt some will claim that the instruction is lacking if a pilot is flying solo and isn't able to cope with a tight circuit, but its not always that easy (see below) and I think we should all be tollerant of other pilots and their capabilities. I would certainly not want to be indirectly linked to an accident because some low houred pilot felt it necessary to fly a tight circuit, or felt pressured into rushing what they were doing.
Andy
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As an aside, as you may guess, I fly from a 2900m runway. I can get the club's Warrior to 1000 feet before I reach the far end of the runway if I have a mind to. I can therefore be at circuit height for probably half a mile before I am allowed to turn crosswind, due to the need to stay clear of Castle Donington village. Likewise, downwind is outside Castle Donington (probably a mile abeam) and the base turn is usually the far side of Kegworth leaving maybe a two mile final - I'm quite happy to run down the M1 inside Kegworth if I can leaving me a 1/4 mile final, but that's not the way its taught. I'm not criticising the teaching at East Midlands, but local conditions simply mitigate against SPLs learning tight circuits - with the best will in the world, there's only so much circuit training that could be done at other airfields. The net result though, I suspect, is that pilots who rarely get an opportunity to practice tight circuits will be unlikely to perform them, or indeed may not be able to cope with them, when they go to smaller airfields. Again, I think we need to be tollerant of the abilities of others, and not just assume pilots fly blindly off into the middle of no-where just because they can't be bothered to keep it tight.
No doubt some will claim that the instruction is lacking if a pilot is flying solo and isn't able to cope with a tight circuit, but its not always that easy (see below) and I think we should all be tollerant of other pilots and their capabilities. I would certainly not want to be indirectly linked to an accident because some low houred pilot felt it necessary to fly a tight circuit, or felt pressured into rushing what they were doing.
Andy
====
As an aside, as you may guess, I fly from a 2900m runway. I can get the club's Warrior to 1000 feet before I reach the far end of the runway if I have a mind to. I can therefore be at circuit height for probably half a mile before I am allowed to turn crosswind, due to the need to stay clear of Castle Donington village. Likewise, downwind is outside Castle Donington (probably a mile abeam) and the base turn is usually the far side of Kegworth leaving maybe a two mile final - I'm quite happy to run down the M1 inside Kegworth if I can leaving me a 1/4 mile final, but that's not the way its taught. I'm not criticising the teaching at East Midlands, but local conditions simply mitigate against SPLs learning tight circuits - with the best will in the world, there's only so much circuit training that could be done at other airfields. The net result though, I suspect, is that pilots who rarely get an opportunity to practice tight circuits will be unlikely to perform them, or indeed may not be able to cope with them, when they go to smaller airfields. Again, I think we need to be tollerant of the abilities of others, and not just assume pilots fly blindly off into the middle of no-where just because they can't be bothered to keep it tight.
I wrote:
Just got back from 30 minutes in the circuit at Cambridge.
I take it all back. All those flying a circuit bigger than the one I deem to be necessary should be lined up against a hangar and summarily shot.
Newmarket's pretty though...
Yes, teach students to fly sensible circuits consistent with the aircraft they're flying, but let's show a little tolerance for the diversity of needs in aviation and not get carried away with this. It's not a way of scoring points over other pilots.
I take it all back. All those flying a circuit bigger than the one I deem to be necessary should be lined up against a hangar and summarily shot.
Newmarket's pretty though...