How long before your skills begin to deteriorate???
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How long before your skills begin to deteriorate???
A question.
Due to ongoing ATPL studies, until yesterday I had not flown for just over a month. Prior to this I had grown used to flying almost every day, weather permitting.
So yesterday, full of vim and vigour I swaggered into Stapleford, hired an 'Arrer' with the intention of a few circuits, and a bit of general handling just to keep my hand in, and to retain currency.
In short I was shocked that in just over a month my skills had deteriorated to such an extent, to list a few;
Painfully bad airspeed control.
Dreadful altitude control.
Forgot after take off checks (did remember the wheels though).
Steep turns as bad as a 10 hour novice (no offence intended).
Landing was the only saving grace, a greaser probably more luck than judgement (10 kt x-wind).
I set myself high standards, due to commercial aspirations, however I feel that I need to fly more regularly to maintain my standards. Am I being to hard on myself?
Anyone else had similar experiences, how long before you feel the need for an instructor to occupy the RHS?
Iain..
Due to ongoing ATPL studies, until yesterday I had not flown for just over a month. Prior to this I had grown used to flying almost every day, weather permitting.
So yesterday, full of vim and vigour I swaggered into Stapleford, hired an 'Arrer' with the intention of a few circuits, and a bit of general handling just to keep my hand in, and to retain currency.
In short I was shocked that in just over a month my skills had deteriorated to such an extent, to list a few;
Painfully bad airspeed control.
Dreadful altitude control.
Forgot after take off checks (did remember the wheels though).
Steep turns as bad as a 10 hour novice (no offence intended).
Landing was the only saving grace, a greaser probably more luck than judgement (10 kt x-wind).
I set myself high standards, due to commercial aspirations, however I feel that I need to fly more regularly to maintain my standards. Am I being to hard on myself?
Anyone else had similar experiences, how long before you feel the need for an instructor to occupy the RHS?
Iain..
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I believe it's what you're used to. I've seen pilots who only fly every month or two, who are extremely good. On the other hand, if you're used to flying more regularly and then you have a break, the sudden change in frequency is bound to affect you.
Personally, I'm a weekend flyer - and that becomes every two or three weekends if I'm busy, or the weather's bad. When I was hour-building, I flew nearly every day. After that, I returned to full-time work and went back to flying at the weekends, and, at first, my flying deteriorated - I'd got used to flying every day, and the reduction in flying frequency affected me. But after a month or two of weekend-flying, I got used to it again.
The only trick I can think of to help if you can't fly regularly is to think about flying. I quite often fly circuits on the train, or in the bath. When I'm planning a cross-country, I'll often plot the route on the chart a week or more in advance, and imagine flying the route, the way-points I'll use, who I'll talk to and what I'll say to them, etc.
Nothing to worry about though - perfectly normal in my limited experience.
FFF
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Personally, I'm a weekend flyer - and that becomes every two or three weekends if I'm busy, or the weather's bad. When I was hour-building, I flew nearly every day. After that, I returned to full-time work and went back to flying at the weekends, and, at first, my flying deteriorated - I'd got used to flying every day, and the reduction in flying frequency affected me. But after a month or two of weekend-flying, I got used to it again.
The only trick I can think of to help if you can't fly regularly is to think about flying. I quite often fly circuits on the train, or in the bath. When I'm planning a cross-country, I'll often plot the route on the chart a week or more in advance, and imagine flying the route, the way-points I'll use, who I'll talk to and what I'll say to them, etc.
Nothing to worry about though - perfectly normal in my limited experience.
FFF
----------------
The Original Whirly
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It happens, with flying and any other skill - use it or lose it. You notice most if you've been flying every day and then have a break. After I did the CPL(H) flying couse over a few weeks I felt like an R22 was a part of me; I strapped it on rather than flew it. I've not been able to get back to that point since. On the other hand, I'm better - or perhaps less bad - after a break than I used to be. And the more you fly, the longer you seem to be able to leave it without your skills totally deteriorating. Oh, and the quicker they come back too. And all of the above seems to vary between individuals.
So now I''ve probably totally confused you! I hope you'll get some answers from some of the really experienced people who post on this forum, as I'm still finding my way with this one too.
So now I''ve probably totally confused you! I hope you'll get some answers from some of the really experienced people who post on this forum, as I'm still finding my way with this one too.
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Two week is all it takes for me to notice a reasonable difference, three weeks and I'm all fingers and thumbs. In general, little and often is better, I think, than longer flights more distantly spaced.
QDM
QDM
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Singapore,
I can sit backwards - the taps digging in to my back remind me of wearing a parachute while doing aeros in the States.
Anyway, at least I'm alone in the bath (usually
) On the train, I get strange looks from people when I make the downwind call or trim the aircraft. Fortunately, I haven't yet grabbed hold of anything or anyone when I've been reaching for the flap lever 
FFF
-----------
I can sit backwards - the taps digging in to my back remind me of wearing a parachute while doing aeros in the States.
Anyway, at least I'm alone in the bath (usually
) On the train, I get strange looks from people when I make the downwind call or trim the aircraft. Fortunately, I haven't yet grabbed hold of anything or anyone when I've been reaching for the flap lever FFF
-----------
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Hmmm, I can see lots of possibilities here.
PFLs and ditching? "Mayday mayday mayday, engine failure two feet south-east of cold tap,descending through 18 inches, whoops mind that patch of bubbles, let's see if I can land on the loofah..."
(Sorry iainpoll for lowering the tone of your thread)
PFLs and ditching? "Mayday mayday mayday, engine failure two feet south-east of cold tap,descending through 18 inches, whoops mind that patch of bubbles, let's see if I can land on the loofah..."
(Sorry iainpoll for lowering the tone of your thread)
The more experience you have the longer you can go before experiencing a noticeable skill degradation, the skill degradation will tend to be less and quicker to recover once practice is resumed.
If you're in the middle of study (or whatever) & expect to have some period before your next bout of flying training starts then don't worry about it.
You'll spend the first couple or few hours regaining your forgotten skills then progress from there. Compare that with flying, say, for an hour per week for 4 months to 'keep my skills honed for my next course'.
You'll end up spending more, I'd say.
I'm not suggesting that stopping flying for 5 or 10 years is reasonable, just the typical stop-start modular training carry on.
If you want to go flying for the sake of flying then do whatever amount of currency you feel is reasonable to maintain a safe level of skill.
bloody tipo's
If you're in the middle of study (or whatever) & expect to have some period before your next bout of flying training starts then don't worry about it.
You'll spend the first couple or few hours regaining your forgotten skills then progress from there. Compare that with flying, say, for an hour per week for 4 months to 'keep my skills honed for my next course'.
You'll end up spending more, I'd say.
I'm not suggesting that stopping flying for 5 or 10 years is reasonable, just the typical stop-start modular training carry on.
If you want to go flying for the sake of flying then do whatever amount of currency you feel is reasonable to maintain a safe level of skill.
bloody tipo's
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 25th Oct 2002 at 17:34.
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Kidding aside I reckon this is a bl*dy good question. It intrigues me because I have done a reasonable duty as check pilot for a Group with members falling out of currency. It is interesting how much people vary. There do seem to be a few generalities though. Not surprisingly the more hours people have the longer it takes to lose those vital skills after a lay off, and within reason that seems to disregard how recently those hours were acquired. However if those hours were acquired in a short block as opposed to over a long period of time the former do better. I have also noticed that those pilots who have other ratings, or have done aeros, seem to retain their skill level longer after a lay off. Finally, and perhaps not surprisingly, it is nearly always the landings that start to become a problem before anything else in terms of safety – always presupposing nothing untoward happens in the cruise of course. I reckon for those that would otherwise have a good skill level were they current, after 4 months without flying they will almost certainly have a number of problems requiring correction some of which could result in an accident, and after two months there will be signs of rust but nothing too serious. IMC skills are a different matter, but are in part related to general currency. Someone who is VMC but not IMC current will do much better in IMC than someone who is not current at all. Not surprisingly one skill helps the other, but the IMC skill is lost much more quickly than the VMC skill perhaps as little as 1 month after not flying at all. In terms of the two camps and very much to generalise, those with less than 250ish hours (total time) and particularly those with less than 60 hours in any one year ever seem to lose their skills more quickly and may be struggling on some aspects after a couple of months.
.. .. .. and when there is someone else in the bath do they do the air traffic bit?
.. .. .. and when there is someone else in the bath do they do the air traffic bit?
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Personally, I find that after about 3 weeks I'm rustier than I'd like so I'm trying for little and often.
Try mixing your circuits up a bit. I'm now doing a combination of touch/stop and go's, go arounds and glide approaches which only takes about 40 minutes and I take an instructor every 4 weeks or so. I'd equate it to being in the gym - if you keep doing the same exercises all the time, then the muscles learn that exercise and stop developing and in the same way I reckon that your hand/eye co-ordination for flying needs the same workout.
When I've finally got my check ride complete on the 172 I'll subsidise my flying with some trips to France with more experienced pilots and continue to learn from then as well.
Try mixing your circuits up a bit. I'm now doing a combination of touch/stop and go's, go arounds and glide approaches which only takes about 40 minutes and I take an instructor every 4 weeks or so. I'd equate it to being in the gym - if you keep doing the same exercises all the time, then the muscles learn that exercise and stop developing and in the same way I reckon that your hand/eye co-ordination for flying needs the same workout.
When I've finally got my check ride complete on the 172 I'll subsidise my flying with some trips to France with more experienced pilots and continue to learn from then as well.
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This is a very interesting subject.
It got me to thinking about my own experience with recency.
Many years ago I was the training Captain for a waterbomber company and each new season when we flew the first flight with a water landing and pickup I found myself suffering from what could be best described as flare anxiety. Flare anxiety is the only description that I can think of because I had lost the confidence to be comfortable with the low flare necessary for a proper touch down on the water.
However after several approaches and touch downs I was right back to the same level of skill and confidence that I had at the end of the previous season.
So recency is very important for confidence and proficiency.
Now there is one exception, that is sex, the longer I am without it the more confident I am that I can do it, however the lenght of time that I can do it reduces drastically.
...................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
It got me to thinking about my own experience with recency.
Many years ago I was the training Captain for a waterbomber company and each new season when we flew the first flight with a water landing and pickup I found myself suffering from what could be best described as flare anxiety. Flare anxiety is the only description that I can think of because I had lost the confidence to be comfortable with the low flare necessary for a proper touch down on the water.
However after several approaches and touch downs I was right back to the same level of skill and confidence that I had at the end of the previous season.
So recency is very important for confidence and proficiency.
Now there is one exception, that is sex, the longer I am without it the more confident I am that I can do it, however the lenght of time that I can do it reduces drastically.
...................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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We are on our second sheet of posts and not a bum one yet. Remarkable.
I don’t think there is any point in wondering if you are worse or better than average at this problem. It affects everybody in different ways. The really important thing is to understand your very own body, brains, hand-eye coordination, memory, general sharpness - whatever and how it varies. If you train yourself to become conscious about these factors you are well on the way to mitigating any safety implications of an off day whether caused by currency or other things.
Some of the things not mentioned so far, that I feel are factors in one’s performance that may get ignored if you only think about currency (as in s***t I have not flown for x weeks) are having a good/bad nights sleep the night before, food/blood sugar related issues and jet lag. For me, all three of these things had a much much bigger effect on how I performed than simple currency. And we have not even mentioned flying with the odd low level virus or other off colour stuff.
We seldom get out of bed and get into an aeroplane. We usually drive a car somewhere first. For me how well I drove to work became almost an obsession. In the days of manual chokes they were a big help, forget to push it in and you should find an excuse not to fly! Tom Brooke-Smith (SC1 in the 50’s) said he gave up test flying when he found he kept forgetting to push it in. He may have been joking but you know there is something in what he said. Now we have automatic chokes perhaps we have to think about bumping the curb or some such, or not being able to immaculately reverse into your regular parking spot.
The trick is to find some way - anyway - of giving yourself a wakeup call that you should take special care today before you taxy out..
I don’t think there is any point in wondering if you are worse or better than average at this problem. It affects everybody in different ways. The really important thing is to understand your very own body, brains, hand-eye coordination, memory, general sharpness - whatever and how it varies. If you train yourself to become conscious about these factors you are well on the way to mitigating any safety implications of an off day whether caused by currency or other things.
Some of the things not mentioned so far, that I feel are factors in one’s performance that may get ignored if you only think about currency (as in s***t I have not flown for x weeks) are having a good/bad nights sleep the night before, food/blood sugar related issues and jet lag. For me, all three of these things had a much much bigger effect on how I performed than simple currency. And we have not even mentioned flying with the odd low level virus or other off colour stuff.
We seldom get out of bed and get into an aeroplane. We usually drive a car somewhere first. For me how well I drove to work became almost an obsession. In the days of manual chokes they were a big help, forget to push it in and you should find an excuse not to fly! Tom Brooke-Smith (SC1 in the 50’s) said he gave up test flying when he found he kept forgetting to push it in. He may have been joking but you know there is something in what he said. Now we have automatic chokes perhaps we have to think about bumping the curb or some such, or not being able to immaculately reverse into your regular parking spot.
The trick is to find some way - anyway - of giving yourself a wakeup call that you should take special care today before you taxy out..
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An interesting topic - not sure there is a simple answer.
My (limited) experience suggests you can't always predict how your skills will be affected by an extended break from flying - one of the problems. Certainly the more often you can fly the better your skills - when I was sitting my GFPT (old restricted PPL) I flew every day or every second day practising glide approaches, advanced stalls etc and I felt I was part of the 152.
I flew 2 weeks ago in an aircraft I wasn't used to (and it was not the most pristine aircraft I have had the privilege to fly), in and out of an ALA I had never visited (and which had much heavier traffic densities than I am used to at my home field - including a few Dash 8's) in a strong, gusty cross wind. I had an instructor fly with me, as I hadn't flown for the previous 4 months and have flown only about 5 hours total this year. I was expecting the flight would be a real mess, but it was really just a scenic joyflight where I thought I would get to do some of the flying. I was really surprised when my RT, approach and landing were good and even more suprised when we did a flight 500ft off the beach and my attitude was not varying all that much. I was not surprised when my departure and traffic scan were truly bad, but not bad enough for the club that owned the aircraft to say my flying was OK and they would rent it to me if I wanted to go for another flight (I didn't because I didn't think I was up to it).
I have had other experiences when my usual (but not this year - work!) fortnightly flight would not happen for 4 or 6 weeks. On each occassion my landings were pretty good (that is, about the same number of good and not so good landings as I would have if flying more frequently) but other things would be worse - it might be trimming is bad one flight, RT was hopeless on the next, I might bank a little too steeply on turns to cross-wind or final, or I might be too high (but never too low) on approach. Nothing life threatening, just imprecise and annoying.
I have had flights where I have pulled off 3 very close to perfect cricuits (and stopped because I know the fourth will be bad, and might as well end on a high note) and other flights where I only do two circuits because they were both bad and not getting better.
This sort of thing was also noticed by an acquaintance, who has the same instructor, same aircraft and same frequency.
I sometimes fly well with an instructor, but generally fly porrly if it is an instructor different to my usual instructor unless it is a check flight.
I don't consider myself, or my friend, to be especially gifted pilots - far from it in my case. I have been genuinely surprised at how some things seem to "come together" but other things fall apart after an extended time on the ground.
I think it depends on how you are taught. My instructor is a "bush pilot" who pretty much instructs so he can teach (he is retired and is not building time) the old school. He is proud he teaches his "private" students differently, or as he says "properly", to the methods he has to employ to teach those on a short course to an airline career.
So I don't think it simply a question of duration and frequency - it may also be the quality or type of training.
My (limited) experience suggests you can't always predict how your skills will be affected by an extended break from flying - one of the problems. Certainly the more often you can fly the better your skills - when I was sitting my GFPT (old restricted PPL) I flew every day or every second day practising glide approaches, advanced stalls etc and I felt I was part of the 152.
I flew 2 weeks ago in an aircraft I wasn't used to (and it was not the most pristine aircraft I have had the privilege to fly), in and out of an ALA I had never visited (and which had much heavier traffic densities than I am used to at my home field - including a few Dash 8's) in a strong, gusty cross wind. I had an instructor fly with me, as I hadn't flown for the previous 4 months and have flown only about 5 hours total this year. I was expecting the flight would be a real mess, but it was really just a scenic joyflight where I thought I would get to do some of the flying. I was really surprised when my RT, approach and landing were good and even more suprised when we did a flight 500ft off the beach and my attitude was not varying all that much. I was not surprised when my departure and traffic scan were truly bad, but not bad enough for the club that owned the aircraft to say my flying was OK and they would rent it to me if I wanted to go for another flight (I didn't because I didn't think I was up to it).
I have had other experiences when my usual (but not this year - work!) fortnightly flight would not happen for 4 or 6 weeks. On each occassion my landings were pretty good (that is, about the same number of good and not so good landings as I would have if flying more frequently) but other things would be worse - it might be trimming is bad one flight, RT was hopeless on the next, I might bank a little too steeply on turns to cross-wind or final, or I might be too high (but never too low) on approach. Nothing life threatening, just imprecise and annoying.
I have had flights where I have pulled off 3 very close to perfect cricuits (and stopped because I know the fourth will be bad, and might as well end on a high note) and other flights where I only do two circuits because they were both bad and not getting better.
This sort of thing was also noticed by an acquaintance, who has the same instructor, same aircraft and same frequency.
I sometimes fly well with an instructor, but generally fly porrly if it is an instructor different to my usual instructor unless it is a check flight.
I don't consider myself, or my friend, to be especially gifted pilots - far from it in my case. I have been genuinely surprised at how some things seem to "come together" but other things fall apart after an extended time on the ground.
I think it depends on how you are taught. My instructor is a "bush pilot" who pretty much instructs so he can teach (he is retired and is not building time) the old school. He is proud he teaches his "private" students differently, or as he says "properly", to the methods he has to employ to teach those on a short course to an airline career.
So I don't think it simply a question of duration and frequency - it may also be the quality or type of training.
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I think a lot depends on how much total experience you have. I recall that in the first few years of flying, I was very apprehensive if I came to fly after an enforced break (usually aircraft unavailability due our Chippy being a bit of a hangar queen at that time). As the 'time on type' accumalated, I found I could go for very long periods between Chippy flights with no prolem - provided I was flying something else occasionally and provided I wasn't having an 'off' day.
I converted onto the Yak 52, and after two and a half years in that lovely beast I took a chippy flight again. I had a current Chippy pilot in the back seat, but she was a passenger. We did an aeros sequence and some circuits - it was like I'd never been away. But by then I'd been flying that Chippy for about 20 years, so it had become sort of 'engrained' in my system. I don't think it was complacency, since I was very happy with my performance - much happier than some days in the Chippy when I'm *very* current but, as John Farley highlights in his post, I'm just having an 'off' day.
On such days it just won't go right, even with all those years of experience on type - aeros don't 'flow', landings are cr*p (not dangerous, just inelegant), the ball is all over the place during manouvering. These days are not 'recency' dependant - it's just me being below par.
But last month a friend asked me ferry his 172 to an airfield about 45 minutes away. I'd not flown a 172 for a while, but I have a fair bit of 172 time in my logbook, so I jumped at the chance. It was a lovely flight, ending in a perfectly stabilised approach (oh those lovely 40 degree flaps!) to an absolute 'greaser'. When I got home, I checked my logbook for the last time I'd flown a 172 - it was six years ago!! But it felt like I'd never been away.
Bottom line?
The more experience you have, the longer you can go between flights without significant loss of capability.
'Off' days can happen at any time, and on such days you'll fly like a prat even if you are very current.
IMHO, of course.
SSD
I converted onto the Yak 52, and after two and a half years in that lovely beast I took a chippy flight again. I had a current Chippy pilot in the back seat, but she was a passenger. We did an aeros sequence and some circuits - it was like I'd never been away. But by then I'd been flying that Chippy for about 20 years, so it had become sort of 'engrained' in my system. I don't think it was complacency, since I was very happy with my performance - much happier than some days in the Chippy when I'm *very* current but, as John Farley highlights in his post, I'm just having an 'off' day.
On such days it just won't go right, even with all those years of experience on type - aeros don't 'flow', landings are cr*p (not dangerous, just inelegant), the ball is all over the place during manouvering. These days are not 'recency' dependant - it's just me being below par.
But last month a friend asked me ferry his 172 to an airfield about 45 minutes away. I'd not flown a 172 for a while, but I have a fair bit of 172 time in my logbook, so I jumped at the chance. It was a lovely flight, ending in a perfectly stabilised approach (oh those lovely 40 degree flaps!) to an absolute 'greaser'. When I got home, I checked my logbook for the last time I'd flown a 172 - it was six years ago!! But it felt like I'd never been away.
Bottom line?
The more experience you have, the longer you can go between flights without significant loss of capability.
'Off' days can happen at any time, and on such days you'll fly like a prat even if you are very current.
IMHO, of course.
SSD