Short/Rough Field techniques.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: www.tiovicente.com
Short/Rough Field techniques.
I'm planning a holiday to RSA in the Spring and I'm after some tips that hopefully I can practice in the UK for landing on shorter strips that will inevitably be rougher than those I've encountered in the UK so far. Also, some of the strips will be at altitude so and information and tips for these will also be welcome and as a gudeline I'll be flying a C-172 of some type.
Also, does anyone know of any strips in the SE of England that I might be able to use for practice? Obviously, I'm going to take a course over there before setting off on my own but I'd like to get ahead of the game in the UK first.
Cheers all.
Also, does anyone know of any strips in the SE of England that I might be able to use for practice? Obviously, I'm going to take a course over there before setting off on my own but I'd like to get ahead of the game in the UK first.
Cheers all.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: London
Not really SE, but Leicester might be worth a try as it has a number of short runways (sub-500m) both grass and tarmac in a variety of directions, and its always struck me as being relatively quiet.
An alternative is to find a nice big runway and mark out a suitably short strip, either by pacing it out or by reference to other features. This will allow you to screw up without REALLY screwing up
For a bit of fun I always try to make the first turn off at Elstree on Rwy26 when 1 up in a C150, guess that's probably about 250m
BB
An alternative is to find a nice big runway and mark out a suitably short strip, either by pacing it out or by reference to other features. This will allow you to screw up without REALLY screwing up
For a bit of fun I always try to make the first turn off at Elstree on Rwy26 when 1 up in a C150, guess that's probably about 250m BB
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,795
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From: New South Wales
Two thoughts:
1. re: Density altitude, all the usual caveats apply, but I'd add be careful in gusty conditions and with mountainous terrain around the airfield or else trees etc which can affect the microclimate. One thing in particular to watch out for is rivers on the take-off / approach which can be quite cold and cause turbulence or downdrafts just when you don't want them.
2. For most purposes, rough field technique in a nose wheel can be confined to keeping the weight off the nosewheel as much as poss with up elevator. On occasions where it's really rough and you want to get off really quick, you can use full flap. The technique I was taught in Idaho in a 172 is start with one notch and as the speed climbs drop full flap and count to three to allow for the slow electric descent of the flaps, then pop the column back slightly to get off the ground in ground effect and then keep the nose down, bleeding off flap to one stage while in ground effect and then accelerating and climbing away.
This works a treat in the Super Cub where you can just pull full flap in an instant, then bleed it off more slowly in ground effect, trading lift for speed, like a cyclic control or collective or whatever it is they have in helicopters. It does work too in an aircraft with electric flaps, like the C172, but it's not quite so intuitive.
QDM
1. re: Density altitude, all the usual caveats apply, but I'd add be careful in gusty conditions and with mountainous terrain around the airfield or else trees etc which can affect the microclimate. One thing in particular to watch out for is rivers on the take-off / approach which can be quite cold and cause turbulence or downdrafts just when you don't want them.
2. For most purposes, rough field technique in a nose wheel can be confined to keeping the weight off the nosewheel as much as poss with up elevator. On occasions where it's really rough and you want to get off really quick, you can use full flap. The technique I was taught in Idaho in a 172 is start with one notch and as the speed climbs drop full flap and count to three to allow for the slow electric descent of the flaps, then pop the column back slightly to get off the ground in ground effect and then keep the nose down, bleeding off flap to one stage while in ground effect and then accelerating and climbing away.
This works a treat in the Super Cub where you can just pull full flap in an instant, then bleed it off more slowly in ground effect, trading lift for speed, like a cyclic control or collective or whatever it is they have in helicopters. It does work too in an aircraft with electric flaps, like the C172, but it's not quite so intuitive.
QDM
Last edited by QDMQDMQDM; 9th October 2002 at 11:01.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Senna,
I've never done any real short/rough strip work (unless you count the runways at White Waltham as rough!). But the general idea is that, for take-off, follow the technique in the POH. This will usually involve full back elevator during the take-off roll, and lowering the nose as soon as airbourne in order to gain speed and avoid the stall. Landing will usually be slower than normal, sometimes on the back side of the power curve, involving lots of power to couteract the drag, and a flatter approach than you're used to. But the POH will take precendence over everything I've said - I've never flown a C172, so I make no guarantees that the technique I've described is appropriate.
You should have covered all this for your PPL - if not, read the POH, and get an instructor to run through it with you in the air. I doubt that practicing over here will prepare you for the real thing (it certainly didn't prepare me for the one rough field I've flown into), but at least you'll know what to do, even if not what to expect.
Altitude flying is something I do know about, having spent 100 hours or so flying around the moutains in Arizona.
Take-off and landing really shouldn't be a problem, so long as you do your performance checks. If you're flying a type such as a C172 you should find you have performance graphs in the POH - use them for every flight into conditions you're not used (that includes any combination of weights/altitudes/temps/winds you're not used) and you'll be fine. It will take longer to accelerate on take-off, don't be tempted to rotate too soon. And both the take-off and landing will be at a higher ground-speed than you're used to - trust your ASI and fly the attitude, ignore what your brain tells you about your speed.
(If you're flying an aircraft without performance graphs, as I was, there are two techniques you can use for guestimating the performance. First, look at the graphs for a different type, and apply similar percentage increases for similar differences. Second, and probably more importantly, talk to the locals!)
In the cruise, you'll need more throttle to get the same amount of power at higher altitudes. As the air gets thinner, you need a greater volume of air to get the same mass of air. If you don't open the throttle, you'll notice the RPM dropping off. Unfortunately, just increasing the throttle to maintain RPM doesn't quite work - the thinner air provides less resistance to the prop, so in order to set the same amount of power as you had at lower levels, you'll actually need a higher RPM at higher levels, and therefore an even greater increase in throttle setting than you would to just maintain RPM.
As a guide, I used to start opening the throttle at about 4000'. By about 7000' I was at full throttle - any further increase in altitude and I would have to accept a decrease in power.
(It's no problem if you have a constant speed prop - you can set the power on the manifold pressure guage, and the prop will coarsen as necessary. You'll still run out of throttle at about 7000', but you'll be able to set it much more accurately below this.)
Leaning also becomes more important. Always lean in the cruise. You'll need to get some guidelines from the instructors as to whether to lean for take-off, I was told to lean the Super Cub for take-off, but not the Warrior or Arrow, and that seemed to work for me.
Also, the difference between IAS and TAS starts becoming more relevant at these altitudes - if you don't convert IAS to TAS when doing flight planning normally, you might like to start, otherwise you'll find that you're consistently faster than expected on your ded reckoning.
Far more important is the effect of winds blowing over mountains. The general rules are: 1) Never fly close to mountains on the down-wind side - the down-draughts can make the aircraft uncontrollable, and 2) Always make sure you've got enough space between you and the mountain to do a 180-degree turn and get out.
I should probably emphasise the importance of understanding these winds a bit more: take-off and landing performance is easy to do properly, and unlikely to kill you. Not understanding how the engine and prop behave at altitude might mess up your navigation a bit, but won't kill you. Failing to understand the winds will kill you if you get it wrong on a windy day. Always be aware of where the wind is from, how it's going to be affected by the terrain, and how to get out of trouble if you've got the winds wrong.
I'm sure you'll have a great time there - I'd like to get out there myself some time. Make sure we get a full report!
FFF
-------------
I've never done any real short/rough strip work (unless you count the runways at White Waltham as rough!). But the general idea is that, for take-off, follow the technique in the POH. This will usually involve full back elevator during the take-off roll, and lowering the nose as soon as airbourne in order to gain speed and avoid the stall. Landing will usually be slower than normal, sometimes on the back side of the power curve, involving lots of power to couteract the drag, and a flatter approach than you're used to. But the POH will take precendence over everything I've said - I've never flown a C172, so I make no guarantees that the technique I've described is appropriate.
You should have covered all this for your PPL - if not, read the POH, and get an instructor to run through it with you in the air. I doubt that practicing over here will prepare you for the real thing (it certainly didn't prepare me for the one rough field I've flown into), but at least you'll know what to do, even if not what to expect.
Altitude flying is something I do know about, having spent 100 hours or so flying around the moutains in Arizona.
Take-off and landing really shouldn't be a problem, so long as you do your performance checks. If you're flying a type such as a C172 you should find you have performance graphs in the POH - use them for every flight into conditions you're not used (that includes any combination of weights/altitudes/temps/winds you're not used) and you'll be fine. It will take longer to accelerate on take-off, don't be tempted to rotate too soon. And both the take-off and landing will be at a higher ground-speed than you're used to - trust your ASI and fly the attitude, ignore what your brain tells you about your speed.
(If you're flying an aircraft without performance graphs, as I was, there are two techniques you can use for guestimating the performance. First, look at the graphs for a different type, and apply similar percentage increases for similar differences. Second, and probably more importantly, talk to the locals!)
In the cruise, you'll need more throttle to get the same amount of power at higher altitudes. As the air gets thinner, you need a greater volume of air to get the same mass of air. If you don't open the throttle, you'll notice the RPM dropping off. Unfortunately, just increasing the throttle to maintain RPM doesn't quite work - the thinner air provides less resistance to the prop, so in order to set the same amount of power as you had at lower levels, you'll actually need a higher RPM at higher levels, and therefore an even greater increase in throttle setting than you would to just maintain RPM.
As a guide, I used to start opening the throttle at about 4000'. By about 7000' I was at full throttle - any further increase in altitude and I would have to accept a decrease in power.
(It's no problem if you have a constant speed prop - you can set the power on the manifold pressure guage, and the prop will coarsen as necessary. You'll still run out of throttle at about 7000', but you'll be able to set it much more accurately below this.)
Leaning also becomes more important. Always lean in the cruise. You'll need to get some guidelines from the instructors as to whether to lean for take-off, I was told to lean the Super Cub for take-off, but not the Warrior or Arrow, and that seemed to work for me.
Also, the difference between IAS and TAS starts becoming more relevant at these altitudes - if you don't convert IAS to TAS when doing flight planning normally, you might like to start, otherwise you'll find that you're consistently faster than expected on your ded reckoning.
Far more important is the effect of winds blowing over mountains. The general rules are: 1) Never fly close to mountains on the down-wind side - the down-draughts can make the aircraft uncontrollable, and 2) Always make sure you've got enough space between you and the mountain to do a 180-degree turn and get out.
I should probably emphasise the importance of understanding these winds a bit more: take-off and landing performance is easy to do properly, and unlikely to kill you. Not understanding how the engine and prop behave at altitude might mess up your navigation a bit, but won't kill you. Failing to understand the winds will kill you if you get it wrong on a windy day. Always be aware of where the wind is from, how it's going to be affected by the terrain, and how to get out of trouble if you've got the winds wrong.
I'm sure you'll have a great time there - I'd like to get out there myself some time. Make sure we get a full report!
FFF
-------------
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
sennadog,
You should be able to do both those things without leaving home base.
Missing the runway and landing on the grass to the north of 08/26 up by the G holds should do the trick!
You should be able to do both those things without leaving home base.
Missing the runway and landing on the grass to the north of 08/26 up by the G holds should do the trick!
I say there boy
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere
Good stuff here.
One thing that you will come across in SA that you rarely get here is gravel strips. You must never come to a halt on a gravel airfield with the engine at any higher power setting more than the POH stationary setting (usually 1,000 - 1,200rpm or whatever the book says). Anything else and you will get multiple prop chips (even with the aircraft stood on gravel at the stationary RPM, from outside you can hear the odd 'ping'). Use the absolute minimum power possible to pull away from stationary - you can increase it once you're rolling - some finesse is required for this.
Run ups are done whilst rolling on the taxy-out unless you are lucky and the strip has a concrete run up pan that is kept well clear of Gravel.
As for high density altitude strips, you have to consider leaning on the ground at full throttle to the rich side of the peak rpm, or else you often don't get anything like full power. On a high-altitude gravel strip you have to do this on the roll during the taxy-out as well - not an easy thing to do. This is even more important when heading up into the highveld in an aircraft usually based near the coast.
As ever, the POH overrides my club bar chat here - and local instructors will know the normal procedures for their club aircraft...
Other than that enjoy it, SA is a fabulous, cheap and friendly flying environment, and closer to UK practice than the US (standard overhead joins.. yippee)
cheers!
foggy.
One thing that you will come across in SA that you rarely get here is gravel strips. You must never come to a halt on a gravel airfield with the engine at any higher power setting more than the POH stationary setting (usually 1,000 - 1,200rpm or whatever the book says). Anything else and you will get multiple prop chips (even with the aircraft stood on gravel at the stationary RPM, from outside you can hear the odd 'ping'). Use the absolute minimum power possible to pull away from stationary - you can increase it once you're rolling - some finesse is required for this.
Run ups are done whilst rolling on the taxy-out unless you are lucky and the strip has a concrete run up pan that is kept well clear of Gravel.
As for high density altitude strips, you have to consider leaning on the ground at full throttle to the rich side of the peak rpm, or else you often don't get anything like full power. On a high-altitude gravel strip you have to do this on the roll during the taxy-out as well - not an easy thing to do. This is even more important when heading up into the highveld in an aircraft usually based near the coast.
As ever, the POH overrides my club bar chat here - and local instructors will know the normal procedures for their club aircraft...
Other than that enjoy it, SA is a fabulous, cheap and friendly flying environment, and closer to UK practice than the US (standard overhead joins.. yippee)
cheers!
foggy.
Last edited by foghorn; 9th October 2002 at 12:55.
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
First realise there is a difference in technique when you are talking short field or soft/rough field ops.
The potential traps for inexperienced players in a situation combining short rough strips and high density altitudes are myriad..plenty of bush pilots with thousands of hours come unglued.
Short Field Ops;
Popping full flaps is NOT a good idea. Full flaps is characterised in most aircraft as being a lot more drag than lift...at high DAs/weights you may well find that this 'technique' simply stops all acceleration and leads to a little bunny hop followed by an overrun of the available strip length.
In every Cessna I've flown on bush ops (C180/182/185/206/210) flaps 20 was optimal...leave it at that.
If there are no obstacles in the takeoff splay simply ensure that the performance of the aircraft is adequate via the graphs and go. Bare in mind that if DA is a consideration you should have done a takeoff limitations check for typical conditions, say ISA +20, nil wind and at the realistic weight you will be at (or MTOW) and already know you can get out again before you even land there.
If a strip is just short set flaps 10 or 20, accelerate normally and a few knots(about 5) before TOSS gently raise the nose and let the aircraft fly off when it's ready. Dragging the nose off early will increase induced and form drag and lengthen your takeoff roll. If there are no obstacles let the aircraft accelerate in a very shallow climb to a higher speed to give you a buffer for windsheer and retract the flaps as you go...but not too soon...50' minimum.
As someone else posted bodies of water right at the end of the strip such as rivers or lakes or even a swamp do lead to areas of sink because they are colder than surrounding terrain. Having that buffer of extra speed will take care of it. Terrain, even very small hills or rock outcrops close to and upwind of the strip must be taken into account as well. Air is a fluid the same as water...think of air flowing around features as the same as water flowing over rocks etc in a swift flowing creek/river then you will be able to picture what the air is doing around the takeoff/approach flight path. Yet another reason NOT to pull the nose up and maintain some silly best angle of climb speed.
If a strip is VERY rough then you should NOT BE THERE...you will almost certainly be contravening your rental agreement. On a moderately bumpy strip simply enough back pressure on the controls to take the most of the weight off the nose wheel is enough...and that backpressure will be a reducing amount as the aircraft accelerates...remember the drag you are causing.
Landing on short fields, of the type we are talking about, requires no special technique beyond accurate airspeed control and touching down exactly where you should.
IAS exactly on 1.3 VS at full flaps to about 50' then gently reduce power to idle and touchdown at the first cone markers in from the threshold (about 30m usually) at Vref - 5 odd knots followed by reasonably heavy braking will have you stopped in 300 odd meters...if that's all you have you will be certainly leaving most everything behind when you leave...your bags, your wife/girlfriend etc. DO NOT be tempted to touchdown in the first 5 feet of available runway...it's dangerous and NOT REQUIRED!
IF you are overshooting your touchdown zone, between the first and second cone markers in from the threshold markers, then GO AROUND.
On the subject of GAs...full power and then instantly reduce flap to flaps 20..remember from flaps 20 to flaps 40 is almost all drag and very little lift...it will cause a huge pitch up moment that will require LOTS of forward pressure to counter act...get rid of that drag and pitch moment QUICKLY (no the aircraft won't stall...not even close IF you maintain Vref +)
Soft Fields.
It goes without saying that if you have a choice don't go there until it's dried off some...you won't have to wait long in the African heat for things to improve.
However if you have to land somewhere that might be soft the above technique remains the same EXCEPT don't jump on the brakes...gently feel for brake effectiveness and use all the LDA to bring the aircraft to a halt.
If overnight rains have reduced your strip to a muddy track your first option is to do NOTHING. Wait for the sun to dry it off.
If you have double the TODR for dry conditions, and you really want to leave, then this is what I used to do. Bare in mind I was bush flying for a living and we didn't wait for anything...but at 10 or 20 sectors a day we were current and practiced and knew our aircraft and the airstrips VERY WELL.
Drag is the big enemy on soft fields, you need to do EVERYTHING in your power to maximise acceleration.
Wheels cause drag, especially the little one at the front, flaps cause drag (initially).
So in a Cessna I would set flaps 10, max power and stick back to keep the weight off the nosewheel. When the aircraft is getting light on the wheels, nosewheel will be just off the ground, select flaps 20, manual flaps are better but electrics work too. The aircraft will 'pop' into the air at a very slow airspeed so let it accelerate...when you are SURE the aircraft will stay in the air retract the gear if it's a that kind of gear. Then as per short field above...accelerate further retracting flaps incrementally at a safe height and with good margins of IAS, say above 30' to 50'.
A note about retractable gear...mud and crap can cause problems with the gear micro switches on 210s and C182RGs...particular attention to them on your daily and keeping them clean will save you embarassment.
Relatively few airstrips that are 'short' also have significant obstacles close in, if there are be VERY carefull. Perhaps even explore the option of accepting some tailwind for takeoff if the other way has no obstacles. Stay within POH limits and make damn certain you have enough TODA with the maximum tailwind you will expect to experience on that takeoff.
Walking around the strip and studying the wind and surface conditions (check for soft spots) etc is a very good idea...use the peak gust for calculations and then try and time your takeoff roll to occur in a lull.
If operating significantly above sea level make very certain you understand leaning for best power on takeoff...about 100F ROP. Generally only an issue above say 3000' DA. Notice I said DA, Density Altitude not elevation....make sure you understand the difference at temps around ISA + 20 or 30 degrees C.
Discussing various strips with local bush pilots is an absolute MUST! Even experienced bush pilots do that all the time.
I used to drag fully loaded Islanders out of flat strips of 380 mtrs at DAs of many thousands of feet....fully loaded 402s out of 650 mtrs at sea level.
600 meters in a Cessna is not a problem if you are carefull and follow the above. get an instructor and go find a 500 or 600 meter strip and practice...go arounds especially.
Have a great trip
Chuck.
The potential traps for inexperienced players in a situation combining short rough strips and high density altitudes are myriad..plenty of bush pilots with thousands of hours come unglued.
Short Field Ops;
Popping full flaps is NOT a good idea. Full flaps is characterised in most aircraft as being a lot more drag than lift...at high DAs/weights you may well find that this 'technique' simply stops all acceleration and leads to a little bunny hop followed by an overrun of the available strip length.
In every Cessna I've flown on bush ops (C180/182/185/206/210) flaps 20 was optimal...leave it at that.
If there are no obstacles in the takeoff splay simply ensure that the performance of the aircraft is adequate via the graphs and go. Bare in mind that if DA is a consideration you should have done a takeoff limitations check for typical conditions, say ISA +20, nil wind and at the realistic weight you will be at (or MTOW) and already know you can get out again before you even land there.
If a strip is just short set flaps 10 or 20, accelerate normally and a few knots(about 5) before TOSS gently raise the nose and let the aircraft fly off when it's ready. Dragging the nose off early will increase induced and form drag and lengthen your takeoff roll. If there are no obstacles let the aircraft accelerate in a very shallow climb to a higher speed to give you a buffer for windsheer and retract the flaps as you go...but not too soon...50' minimum.
As someone else posted bodies of water right at the end of the strip such as rivers or lakes or even a swamp do lead to areas of sink because they are colder than surrounding terrain. Having that buffer of extra speed will take care of it. Terrain, even very small hills or rock outcrops close to and upwind of the strip must be taken into account as well. Air is a fluid the same as water...think of air flowing around features as the same as water flowing over rocks etc in a swift flowing creek/river then you will be able to picture what the air is doing around the takeoff/approach flight path. Yet another reason NOT to pull the nose up and maintain some silly best angle of climb speed.
If a strip is VERY rough then you should NOT BE THERE...you will almost certainly be contravening your rental agreement. On a moderately bumpy strip simply enough back pressure on the controls to take the most of the weight off the nose wheel is enough...and that backpressure will be a reducing amount as the aircraft accelerates...remember the drag you are causing.
Landing on short fields, of the type we are talking about, requires no special technique beyond accurate airspeed control and touching down exactly where you should.
IAS exactly on 1.3 VS at full flaps to about 50' then gently reduce power to idle and touchdown at the first cone markers in from the threshold (about 30m usually) at Vref - 5 odd knots followed by reasonably heavy braking will have you stopped in 300 odd meters...if that's all you have you will be certainly leaving most everything behind when you leave...your bags, your wife/girlfriend etc. DO NOT be tempted to touchdown in the first 5 feet of available runway...it's dangerous and NOT REQUIRED!
IF you are overshooting your touchdown zone, between the first and second cone markers in from the threshold markers, then GO AROUND.
On the subject of GAs...full power and then instantly reduce flap to flaps 20..remember from flaps 20 to flaps 40 is almost all drag and very little lift...it will cause a huge pitch up moment that will require LOTS of forward pressure to counter act...get rid of that drag and pitch moment QUICKLY (no the aircraft won't stall...not even close IF you maintain Vref +)
Soft Fields.
It goes without saying that if you have a choice don't go there until it's dried off some...you won't have to wait long in the African heat for things to improve.
However if you have to land somewhere that might be soft the above technique remains the same EXCEPT don't jump on the brakes...gently feel for brake effectiveness and use all the LDA to bring the aircraft to a halt.
If overnight rains have reduced your strip to a muddy track your first option is to do NOTHING. Wait for the sun to dry it off.
If you have double the TODR for dry conditions, and you really want to leave, then this is what I used to do. Bare in mind I was bush flying for a living and we didn't wait for anything...but at 10 or 20 sectors a day we were current and practiced and knew our aircraft and the airstrips VERY WELL.
Drag is the big enemy on soft fields, you need to do EVERYTHING in your power to maximise acceleration.
Wheels cause drag, especially the little one at the front, flaps cause drag (initially).
So in a Cessna I would set flaps 10, max power and stick back to keep the weight off the nosewheel. When the aircraft is getting light on the wheels, nosewheel will be just off the ground, select flaps 20, manual flaps are better but electrics work too. The aircraft will 'pop' into the air at a very slow airspeed so let it accelerate...when you are SURE the aircraft will stay in the air retract the gear if it's a that kind of gear. Then as per short field above...accelerate further retracting flaps incrementally at a safe height and with good margins of IAS, say above 30' to 50'.
A note about retractable gear...mud and crap can cause problems with the gear micro switches on 210s and C182RGs...particular attention to them on your daily and keeping them clean will save you embarassment.
Relatively few airstrips that are 'short' also have significant obstacles close in, if there are be VERY carefull. Perhaps even explore the option of accepting some tailwind for takeoff if the other way has no obstacles. Stay within POH limits and make damn certain you have enough TODA with the maximum tailwind you will expect to experience on that takeoff.
Walking around the strip and studying the wind and surface conditions (check for soft spots) etc is a very good idea...use the peak gust for calculations and then try and time your takeoff roll to occur in a lull.
If operating significantly above sea level make very certain you understand leaning for best power on takeoff...about 100F ROP. Generally only an issue above say 3000' DA. Notice I said DA, Density Altitude not elevation....make sure you understand the difference at temps around ISA + 20 or 30 degrees C.
Discussing various strips with local bush pilots is an absolute MUST! Even experienced bush pilots do that all the time.
I used to drag fully loaded Islanders out of flat strips of 380 mtrs at DAs of many thousands of feet....fully loaded 402s out of 650 mtrs at sea level.
600 meters in a Cessna is not a problem if you are carefull and follow the above. get an instructor and go find a 500 or 600 meter strip and practice...go arounds especially.
Have a great trip
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 9th October 2002 at 14:56.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
From: Home
What can one add after Chimbu Chuckles' excellent post?
Flying in and out of short, rough, high strips in the mountains, there are 2 points which were impressed on me which could come in useful:
1. Have a plan for what you're going to do if you mess up your approach BEFORE you start the approach. As Chimbu Chuckles says, no special techniques are required other than speed control and an accurate touchdown point. If you miss your touchdown point on a short strip with high density altitude, can you go around safely? If not, which direction should you steer after touchdown for the least unpleasant crash? If you touchdown halfway down a short strip, and then realise you're not going to make it you'll probably hit whatever is at the end of the runway. There might have been something much nicer to hit to the left or right!
2. On a short field takeoff, one thing which goes without saying is USE ALL OF THE STRIP. People often don't.
In SE England, there used to be an excellent short strip near to Canterbury (close to the village of Boughton, in between Faversham and Canterbury), but I'm not sure if it is still open. It had an obstructed circuit (hills), a bit of a slope to the first part of the runway followed by a level section and a broken tarmac / gravel surface. If it is still open it's most definitely not somewhere to go and discover solo. I think it may have been closed down, though. The M2 motorway is in a cutting at the end of the runway, and more than 1 pilot has ended up on the road, usually after taking off uphill, getting airborne in ground effect on the level section, then stalling over the road as the ground falls away...
Have fun in SA. Watch out for the poisonous spiders!
Flying in and out of short, rough, high strips in the mountains, there are 2 points which were impressed on me which could come in useful:
1. Have a plan for what you're going to do if you mess up your approach BEFORE you start the approach. As Chimbu Chuckles says, no special techniques are required other than speed control and an accurate touchdown point. If you miss your touchdown point on a short strip with high density altitude, can you go around safely? If not, which direction should you steer after touchdown for the least unpleasant crash? If you touchdown halfway down a short strip, and then realise you're not going to make it you'll probably hit whatever is at the end of the runway. There might have been something much nicer to hit to the left or right!
2. On a short field takeoff, one thing which goes without saying is USE ALL OF THE STRIP. People often don't.
In SE England, there used to be an excellent short strip near to Canterbury (close to the village of Boughton, in between Faversham and Canterbury), but I'm not sure if it is still open. It had an obstructed circuit (hills), a bit of a slope to the first part of the runway followed by a level section and a broken tarmac / gravel surface. If it is still open it's most definitely not somewhere to go and discover solo. I think it may have been closed down, though. The M2 motorway is in a cutting at the end of the runway, and more than 1 pilot has ended up on the road, usually after taking off uphill, getting airborne in ground effect on the level section, then stalling over the road as the ground falls away...
Have fun in SA. Watch out for the poisonous spiders!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,795
Likes: 0
From: New South Wales
Interesting piece on STOL techniques in the Super Cub which is nevertheless generally relevant:
http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=248
One of the most noteworthy things about performance discussions in general on the forums at supercub.org is the way they always tend to get back to weight and how a Super Cub at gross is a very different machine to one lightly loaded. These fellows are simply obsessed with weight and its effect on performance!
I think there is a tendency amongst pilots to discount this difference and to presume that just because an aircraft is within weight and balance limits it can be flown with impunity. It's not just take-off and landing distances which change, but the way it handles, the responsiveness to power and, most critically of all, the stall speed.
It seems safest and smartest to consider that a lightly loaded aircraft and one at gross are two completely different machines in many different ways.
QDM
http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=248
One of the most noteworthy things about performance discussions in general on the forums at supercub.org is the way they always tend to get back to weight and how a Super Cub at gross is a very different machine to one lightly loaded. These fellows are simply obsessed with weight and its effect on performance!
I think there is a tendency amongst pilots to discount this difference and to presume that just because an aircraft is within weight and balance limits it can be flown with impunity. It's not just take-off and landing distances which change, but the way it handles, the responsiveness to power and, most critically of all, the stall speed.
It seems safest and smartest to consider that a lightly loaded aircraft and one at gross are two completely different machines in many different ways.
QDM
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
Sennadog that's a good way to end up crashed short of the threshold...particularly in high DA situations. You can too easily end up in a situation where you have full power on and no matter what else you do your ROD will increase dramatically....I've seen it happen more than once...luckily not usually fatal.
Simple accurate flying is all that is required!
Be VERY WARY of information that comes from the mouths of (young) instructors...on subjects other than the pilot licence curriculum (and even that sometimes ) as they tend to have no experience on the subject and are only regurgitating bar talk from someone else who has, probably, little or no experience.
The similarities between Flying Schools and the real world ends at aeroplanes parked outside!
Chuck.
Simple accurate flying is all that is required!
Be VERY WARY of information that comes from the mouths of (young) instructors...on subjects other than the pilot licence curriculum (and even that sometimes
) as they tend to have no experience on the subject and are only regurgitating bar talk from someone else who has, probably, little or no experience. The similarities between Flying Schools and the real world ends at aeroplanes parked outside!
Chuck.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
From: united kingdom
Sennadog:
Only one thing to add to the above excellent posts --
You said you would be flying at altitude. Are you planning to go into any mountain strips (steep slope, one way --land uphill, take off downhill-- maybe with no go-around capability after short final due to terrain). If so, remember these strips are killers to the unwary.
I did a bit of flying into such strips in the Alps (with a mountain instructor). Typically ten landings at each are required to qualify as well as much study and experience of mountain flying generally. The advice I had after my intro was not repeat not to go and do it by myself until signed off. That said, it was brilliant fun and I would reccommend it, but with a suitable instructor.
One final point, the PFA do a strip-flying course as part of their coaching scheme.
Enjoy....
Only one thing to add to the above excellent posts --
You said you would be flying at altitude. Are you planning to go into any mountain strips (steep slope, one way --land uphill, take off downhill-- maybe with no go-around capability after short final due to terrain). If so, remember these strips are killers to the unwary.
I did a bit of flying into such strips in the Alps (with a mountain instructor). Typically ten landings at each are required to qualify as well as much study and experience of mountain flying generally. The advice I had after my intro was not repeat not to go and do it by myself until signed off. That said, it was brilliant fun and I would reccommend it, but with a suitable instructor.
One final point, the PFA do a strip-flying course as part of their coaching scheme.
Enjoy....
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
Try the microlight strip at Middle Stoke, on the Isle of Grain (more or less due S of Southend). Best phone them (01634-270780) but it's short, bent, with high obstructions - also cheap, friendly, and does a good bacon sarnie at lunchtimes.
Details are in the RAF guide and Lockyears, but not Pooleys.
G
Details are in the RAF guide and Lockyears, but not Pooleys.
G
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
Between the road and the water/mud mid piccy?
Here 's one of my all time fav spots
Kamalai
Kamalai Finals
Kamalai takeoff
Sennadog...as per alpha's post do not be tempted to try strips like this one...the 1st piccy was taken the day I was there retrieving bits of a crashed Islander...although the pilot survived...the other two were taken by a mate and give the whole picture of this gem. Elev 5000' (DA 9000'+) 13% slope, 400 meters from memory
Chuck.
Here 's one of my all time fav spots
Kamalai
Kamalai Finals
Kamalai takeoff
Sennadog...as per alpha's post do not be tempted to try strips like this one...the 1st piccy was taken the day I was there retrieving bits of a crashed Islander...although the pilot survived...the other two were taken by a mate and give the whole picture of this gem. Elev 5000' (DA 9000'+) 13% slope, 400 meters from memory
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 10th October 2002 at 12:58.
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
Credit for this piccy goes to Herc Jerc.
This is another of my 'fav' spots...virtually directly under the Islander in this pic is the wreckage of another Islander that suffered a L/H prop hub failure as he was getting airborne...he was a top bloke and newly married....I'm still friends with his widow.
Kanobea departure
Need any more convincing to stay away from one way strips in the hills Sennadog?
I'm not sure who to credit this piccy to however while it is in PNG it is probably very representative of a 'worse case' strip that you might face solo in Africa...from piccies I've seen of typical African bush strips anyway. It's 580 meters and 2400' AMSL...at ISA + 20 that probably equates to 5000' DA (without doing the sums)
Mt Bosavi
I don't want to scare you off having a fun trip...and by all means have a go at some real hard strips under supervision if you can organise such...but much more difficult than something like Mt Bosavi should be left to the pros my friend.
Chuck.
PS Have a look at the little gentle hills surrounding this strip and imagine what say 10 kts of wind blowing over them will do to your approach and particularly to your climb performance in a loaded C172 on a hot day
Imagine it wet and boggy in patches.
If you approach this adventure with brain engaged you'll have a ball and be a much better pilot after....best of British
This is another of my 'fav' spots...virtually directly under the Islander in this pic is the wreckage of another Islander that suffered a L/H prop hub failure as he was getting airborne...he was a top bloke and newly married....I'm still friends with his widow.
Kanobea departure
Need any more convincing to stay away from one way strips in the hills Sennadog?
I'm not sure who to credit this piccy to however while it is in PNG it is probably very representative of a 'worse case' strip that you might face solo in Africa...from piccies I've seen of typical African bush strips anyway. It's 580 meters and 2400' AMSL...at ISA + 20 that probably equates to 5000' DA (without doing the sums
)Mt Bosavi
I don't want to scare you off having a fun trip...and by all means have a go at some real hard strips under supervision if you can organise such...but much more difficult than something like Mt Bosavi should be left to the pros my friend.
Chuck.
PS Have a look at the little gentle hills surrounding this strip and imagine what say 10 kts of wind blowing over them will do to your approach and particularly to your climb performance in a loaded C172 on a hot day
Imagine it wet and boggy in patches.
If you approach this adventure with brain engaged you'll have a ball and be a much better pilot after....best of British
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 10th October 2002 at 14:02.