Warrior on grass
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From: Earth
Warrior on grass
Anyone out there operate a Warrior from a grass strip?
If so, is it a genuinely usable a/c for 2 adults and 2 young kids from a grass strip of 650m?
I would be interested to hear peoples views.....
If so, is it a genuinely usable a/c for 2 adults and 2 young kids from a grass strip of 650m?
I would be interested to hear peoples views.....
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
Don't know anything specific about Warriors from grass, but it'll depend on how big the people are, how wet the grass is, how long it is, what the slope is, what the temp is, how much fuel and other stuff you have on board, what condition the engine is, what the wind is etc. etc. No simple answer and I doubt there are many 4-seaters you could operate with absolute impunity out of a 650m grass strip. Maybe a 235hp Maule? Maybe a Cessna 180/185/206? Dunno.
Not a helpful comment, I suspect, but a reflection of reality.
QDM
Not a helpful comment, I suspect, but a reflection of reality.
QDM
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From: UK
I fly a Warrior out of Popham, which is 850m of grass to take-off, although on the most commonly used runway (26) only about 650m to land.
Yes you can do it so long as there's some headwind, you are reasonably precise in your landings, and always use 25 flaps for take-off, and 40 flaps for landing + don't use a higher than recommended approach speed.
Landings are hairier than take-offs, recently I stopped about 100m short of the end with my family plus baggage on-board, ½ fuel remaining, and virtually no headwind. Didn't enjoy it, but with precision and a mental attitude of going-around if you're going to touch down too late, yes 650m is enough - just. I'd prefer 800 myself.
G
Yes you can do it so long as there's some headwind, you are reasonably precise in your landings, and always use 25 flaps for take-off, and 40 flaps for landing + don't use a higher than recommended approach speed.
Landings are hairier than take-offs, recently I stopped about 100m short of the end with my family plus baggage on-board, ½ fuel remaining, and virtually no headwind. Didn't enjoy it, but with precision and a mental attitude of going-around if you're going to touch down too late, yes 650m is enough - just. I'd prefer 800 myself.
G
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Believe the performance graphs, and calculate them every trip, especially if it's hot, wet or low pressure or you have full tanks. I know a very experienced pilot who did not on grass in a Warrior, 4-up and nearly did not make it. Could have been embarrassing for him, considering his position (not with my club, I hasten to add).
With this caveat, yes, I would think it is useable (have flown them from grass, though not often).
With this caveat, yes, I would think it is useable (have flown them from grass, though not often).
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Paros, Greece
I'm only training, so nowhere near as experienced as the guys above, but I regularly fly a Warrior from 615M of grass, usually with two and occasionally three largish adults(650lb - total - not each) and full fuel.
Good short field technique and a decent headwind will see the wheels off the ground after perhaps 350M, and then allow the a/c to accelerate in ground effect. The headwind seems to make a huge difference, especially on landings, which do have to be quite accurate. The correct speed over the fence is essential.
We do sometimes use the 550M runway, but only with two people on board for training flights. Club rules state that there must be at least 10kts of headwind for student solos on this r/way, so I guess that underlines the point about the wind.
Good short field technique and a decent headwind will see the wheels off the ground after perhaps 350M, and then allow the a/c to accelerate in ground effect. The headwind seems to make a huge difference, especially on landings, which do have to be quite accurate. The correct speed over the fence is essential.
We do sometimes use the 550M runway, but only with two people on board for training flights. Club rules state that there must be at least 10kts of headwind for student solos on this r/way, so I guess that underlines the point about the wind.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: don't know, I'll ask
Sywell have several warriors and never seem to have a problem. The shortest r/w is less than 600 metres, but as already stated it rather depends on the wx and grass conditions and your skill levels. You could always employ the no flap take-off with a dump of flap as you rotate technique, but get someone to show you before you do it in earnest. Full flap on the numbers approaches should not be a problem even in no wind, but if you get fast you will miss!
Have fun
Have fun
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Home
Landing shouldn't be a problem with the right technique and mental preparation to go around.
For take off, I once used over 900m of tarmac in a fully loaded Warrior on a very hot day. One of the CAA safety sense leaflets gives a good overview of all the factors to take into account - wet grass, slope, wind, etc., and the extra 33% fudge factor is a good idea.
Also, you need to decide early on if your takeoff isn't going to work! Much better to collide slowly with the fence than to clip it with your wheels as you fail to clear it!
For take off, I once used over 900m of tarmac in a fully loaded Warrior on a very hot day. One of the CAA safety sense leaflets gives a good overview of all the factors to take into account - wet grass, slope, wind, etc., and the extra 33% fudge factor is a good idea.
Also, you need to decide early on if your takeoff isn't going to work! Much better to collide slowly with the fence than to clip it with your wheels as you fail to clear it!
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: England
I've been in and out of a 580m grass strip with 4 adults and half fuel no problem, and also in and out of a 430m (hedge to hedge) grass strip with 2 adults and half tanks. On both occasions it was in a PA28-161 and I went into the books to get the performance data. On the second occasion the book reckoned i could have got out in just under 400m!
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Be careful with the 'no flap take-off with a dump of flap as you rotate technique' on soft ground as the take off run may be longer. With no flap you will have less drag so in theory will accelerate quicker but the reduction in lift keeps you 'running uphill' on the soft ground therefore increasing the take off run.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 492
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From: Manchester, UK
Do your W&B and work out a civilised fuel load to use. It's amazing how much weight it can contribute to the equation overall. As long as you've got a good refuelling point reachable with (say) 20 mins flying you're laughing.
Practice lots (if you've not already done so) before you take a load on, to ensure you are confident at pegging speeds, landing spots, rotate spots, decision points EXACTLY where they should be.
Then work the load up progressively & compare against W&B/performance calcs, rather than throwing everyone in and hoping. You may well find that the way you fly the aircraft will mean a difference between theoretical & actual.
Don't forget to ensure you are hot on x-wind t/o's & landings too, if the strip is one runway. Sod's law you'll always have a 10kt x-wind when you want to fly.
On the Archer vs Warrior front, remember that many Archers have a coarser pitch prop (cruise prop) than Warriors. The Barton Warriors get off the ground pretty quick, even with a good load on, but they dont necessarily cruise v.fast. The Archer can take some time to wind up its speed, but cruises much better.
Summary? Go & rent a Warrior for a few hours and explore its capabilities thoroughly at a civilised grass site.
Practice lots (if you've not already done so) before you take a load on, to ensure you are confident at pegging speeds, landing spots, rotate spots, decision points EXACTLY where they should be.
Then work the load up progressively & compare against W&B/performance calcs, rather than throwing everyone in and hoping. You may well find that the way you fly the aircraft will mean a difference between theoretical & actual.
Don't forget to ensure you are hot on x-wind t/o's & landings too, if the strip is one runway. Sod's law you'll always have a 10kt x-wind when you want to fly.
On the Archer vs Warrior front, remember that many Archers have a coarser pitch prop (cruise prop) than Warriors. The Barton Warriors get off the ground pretty quick, even with a good load on, but they dont necessarily cruise v.fast. The Archer can take some time to wind up its speed, but cruises much better.
Summary? Go & rent a Warrior for a few hours and explore its capabilities thoroughly at a civilised grass site.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
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From: Bournemouth
Read your graphs carefully, and understand them!!!
I used to fly a Warrior from grass. I've only flown it 4-up once - myself, two other small adults, and a small child. Did the weight+balance, calculated that I'd be within MAUW.
Then did the performance calculations, and discovered that I wouldn't be able to take off - by quite a big margin!
I was ready to cancel the flight, when I looked closer at the graphs. I assume your manual is similar to mine: it has a UK CAA supliment at the back, with "revised" performance charts which you have to use in preference to the ones Piper supply? Well, the CAA graphs only cover flapless take-offs - there are no graphs for the short-field take-off, despite the fact that the technique is described in the manual!
(The solution, on the suggestion of my old instructor was as follows: Do the performance calculations on the Piper graphs. Calculate take-off distance for short-field and flapsless. Find the percentage difference between them. Then do the calculations on the CAA graphs, and apply the same percentage reduction for the short-field take-off as the Piper graphs give you. Using this method, there was about 100m to spare, once all the safety factors had been taken into account. And, sure enough, the 'plane got off with well over 100m to spare.)
FFF
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I used to fly a Warrior from grass. I've only flown it 4-up once - myself, two other small adults, and a small child. Did the weight+balance, calculated that I'd be within MAUW.
Then did the performance calculations, and discovered that I wouldn't be able to take off - by quite a big margin!
I was ready to cancel the flight, when I looked closer at the graphs. I assume your manual is similar to mine: it has a UK CAA supliment at the back, with "revised" performance charts which you have to use in preference to the ones Piper supply? Well, the CAA graphs only cover flapless take-offs - there are no graphs for the short-field take-off, despite the fact that the technique is described in the manual!
(The solution, on the suggestion of my old instructor was as follows: Do the performance calculations on the Piper graphs. Calculate take-off distance for short-field and flapsless. Find the percentage difference between them. Then do the calculations on the CAA graphs, and apply the same percentage reduction for the short-field take-off as the Piper graphs give you. Using this method, there was about 100m to spare, once all the safety factors had been taken into account. And, sure enough, the 'plane got off with well over 100m to spare.)
FFF
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