Let's be honest about the NPPL
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Let's be honest about the NPPL
Recently speaking to a well respected CFI at my local club I sensed a feeling of concern from them about the introduction of the NPPL.
The biggest concern (and one that I understand) is......
If 9 out of 10 PPL students take more than 40 hours to prove to their instructors and examiners that they are proficient enough to be awarded a PPL, then how the hell can a NPPL student do the same in quite a few LESS hours.
The PPL syllabus does not cover flying abroad, differences training, flying with more than 3 passengers etc. so how will they do it quicker????????
At the end of your replies I would be interested to know whether you approve of this new licence.
My vote.................Bin It.
The biggest concern (and one that I understand) is......
If 9 out of 10 PPL students take more than 40 hours to prove to their instructors and examiners that they are proficient enough to be awarded a PPL, then how the hell can a NPPL student do the same in quite a few LESS hours.
The PPL syllabus does not cover flying abroad, differences training, flying with more than 3 passengers etc. so how will they do it quicker????????
At the end of your replies I would be interested to know whether you approve of this new licence.
My vote.................Bin It.
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How about medical requirements?
Even if it takes 100hrs to get an NPPL it is still attainable for someone who can't quite get a JAR Class 2 but can get an HGV medical.
[EDIT]
Maybe the CFI should also understand that an NPPL isn't designed for "flying abroad"?
[/EDIT]
But so what - they shouldn't be flying anyway I guess...
Even if it takes 100hrs to get an NPPL it is still attainable for someone who can't quite get a JAR Class 2 but can get an HGV medical.
[EDIT]
Maybe the CFI should also understand that an NPPL isn't designed for "flying abroad"?
[/EDIT]
But so what - they shouldn't be flying anyway I guess...
Last edited by rustle; 9th Sep 2002 at 19:45.
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Before i get a load of criticism about this, I DID NOT SAY IT. lol
A flight instrucotr told me, and i quote:
"The NPPL is for old, retired, men. The wife's died, the kids have moved away, and they want to spend the rest of their couple of years on the planet by flying planes around farm strips.......ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME".
A bit harsh but i can see his reason. Most flight instrucotrs, want to teach people PPL's because they, generally want to progress further with CPL etc..., he did not seem to impressed by the fact that the instrucotr spend loads of time teaching omeone for a NPPL which is basically worthless. Cant fly outside the UK etc....
Basically its a waste of time.
A flight instrucotr told me, and i quote:
"The NPPL is for old, retired, men. The wife's died, the kids have moved away, and they want to spend the rest of their couple of years on the planet by flying planes around farm strips.......ITS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME".
A bit harsh but i can see his reason. Most flight instrucotrs, want to teach people PPL's because they, generally want to progress further with CPL etc..., he did not seem to impressed by the fact that the instrucotr spend loads of time teaching omeone for a NPPL which is basically worthless. Cant fly outside the UK etc....
Basically its a waste of time.
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I said A flight instrucotr told me. Not my flight instructor. The FI which told me this doesnt even live near me. I was chatting to him on the telephone about it.
Just thought id clear this up.
regards
Just thought id clear this up.
regards
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PWP,
2 things.
1. It is spelt I-N-S-T-R-U-C-T-O-R
2. in a previous thread ("anyone ever dread lessons" or some such cack) you suggested that not all instruction was good instruction. I suggest you take your own advice
2 things.
1. It is spelt I-N-S-T-R-U-C-T-O-R
2. in a previous thread ("anyone ever dread lessons" or some such cack) you suggested that not all instruction was good instruction. I suggest you take your own advice
The NPPL was introduced because that's what industry told us they wanted. So we designed a licence which is more affordable than the JAR-FCL PPL and which will meet the needs of many folks. Some will be the 'old men' about whom your 'FI' so rudely and scathingly spoke who wish to remain flying for as long as they can, having now regained the right to enjoy captaining a small aeroplane again. Some will be the struggling youngster who has gained licence allowances for his gliding and perhaps for his microlighting and who can just afford to complete a NPPL with SEP rating - he might one day be able to afford a JAR-FCL PPL, then modular CPL etc. But not right now.
Most of the NPPL criticism stems from the self-interest of the sort of (usually SE England) school which charges £144 per hour for a lesson in a Warrior- and knows full well that NPPL students with some gliding and microlighting under their belts will NOT be doing 45 hours at their establishment.
There are some people who seem to think that every student wants to be a people-tube FO and have forgotten that there are those who just want to fly around the UK for recreation. And that's what our NPPL is all about!
PWP - if I ever find out who that so-called FI was, he'll be sorry.
Most of the NPPL criticism stems from the self-interest of the sort of (usually SE England) school which charges £144 per hour for a lesson in a Warrior- and knows full well that NPPL students with some gliding and microlighting under their belts will NOT be doing 45 hours at their establishment.
There are some people who seem to think that every student wants to be a people-tube FO and have forgotten that there are those who just want to fly around the UK for recreation. And that's what our NPPL is all about!
PWP - if I ever find out who that so-called FI was, he'll be sorry.
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Well said.
The NPPL may not be for everyone, but for lots of people it's ideal. It's also heartening that it's been introduced, and that there are "bureaucrats" who care about making flying more accessible in the UK.
The French aviation press has been singing the praises of the NPPL and asking why they can't have something like it in France, and why they can't have an IMC rating, or 28 day rules so they can have private strips, etc. etc.
The Brits meanwhile (or some of them, at least), don't realise when they've got something good and knock it at the first opportunity.
That's a bit sad, don't you think?
The NPPL may not be for everyone, but for lots of people it's ideal. It's also heartening that it's been introduced, and that there are "bureaucrats" who care about making flying more accessible in the UK.
The French aviation press has been singing the praises of the NPPL and asking why they can't have something like it in France, and why they can't have an IMC rating, or 28 day rules so they can have private strips, etc. etc.
The Brits meanwhile (or some of them, at least), don't realise when they've got something good and knock it at the first opportunity.
That's a bit sad, don't you think?
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Question on NPPL
Hey,
Whilst we're on the topic of the NPPL I have a quick question.
A freind of mine asked me for some advice regarding the NPPL, he asked:
"I want to go commercial but i've heard that the NPPL is much cheaper and easier to do, what do you recommend?"
So I told him that if he intended to go onto commercial then he should do the full JAA PPL as you can't fly outside of UK airspace with a NPPL, so getting the NPPL licence would be pointless as it wouldn't allow him to go on to commerical flying for obvious reasons.
So he then asked:
"What if I do the NPPL, then when I can, do the JAA PPL to get the medical rating and the hours?"
To this I was a bit stumped so I told him in my opinion I would go the whole hog and do the JAA PPL as you get the medical and hours etc etc and you have no restrictions on your licence. Also, he wouldn't be allowed to go commercial with the NPPL so he'd have to go JAA PPL some day...
But, to help him some more i've come to you chaps!
Can you do the NPPL and then go on2 do the JAA PPL? (this seems very pointless to me, please tell me if you disagree and why)
If you do it that way, what are the advantages and disadvantages?
Cheers 'n happy landings
Ian
Whilst we're on the topic of the NPPL I have a quick question.
A freind of mine asked me for some advice regarding the NPPL, he asked:
"I want to go commercial but i've heard that the NPPL is much cheaper and easier to do, what do you recommend?"
So I told him that if he intended to go onto commercial then he should do the full JAA PPL as you can't fly outside of UK airspace with a NPPL, so getting the NPPL licence would be pointless as it wouldn't allow him to go on to commerical flying for obvious reasons.
So he then asked:
"What if I do the NPPL, then when I can, do the JAA PPL to get the medical rating and the hours?"
To this I was a bit stumped so I told him in my opinion I would go the whole hog and do the JAA PPL as you get the medical and hours etc etc and you have no restrictions on your licence. Also, he wouldn't be allowed to go commercial with the NPPL so he'd have to go JAA PPL some day...
But, to help him some more i've come to you chaps!
Can you do the NPPL and then go on2 do the JAA PPL? (this seems very pointless to me, please tell me if you disagree and why)
If you do it that way, what are the advantages and disadvantages?
Cheers 'n happy landings
Ian
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I take on board what you are saying about the "retired" person wishing to fly and the NPPL making their flying wishes come true more easily.
Why though, (whether retired or not) should one person be issued a flying licence which allows them to take three friends flying from one end of the country to another, in a country where weather is known to be changeable, where high ground kills pilots each year, when health-wise they may not even be allowed to drive a lorry and to top it all they have received considerably less training than a PPL holder.
I'm not knocking the introduction of a "variation" to the PPL. What I am saying is that if the holder of one of these licences was less experienced and less healthy than a fresh PPL, aren't they adding more odds to the chance of another well publicised accident that could one day seal our fate as PPL holders.
The press are hardly going to differentiate between the fact that the pilot was a NPPL or a PPL.
Why though, (whether retired or not) should one person be issued a flying licence which allows them to take three friends flying from one end of the country to another, in a country where weather is known to be changeable, where high ground kills pilots each year, when health-wise they may not even be allowed to drive a lorry and to top it all they have received considerably less training than a PPL holder.
I'm not knocking the introduction of a "variation" to the PPL. What I am saying is that if the holder of one of these licences was less experienced and less healthy than a fresh PPL, aren't they adding more odds to the chance of another well publicised accident that could one day seal our fate as PPL holders.
The press are hardly going to differentiate between the fact that the pilot was a NPPL or a PPL.
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Monocock, I believe that if you have a private driving licence you are able to fly solo only, or with another qualified pilot. If you pass the HGV medical then you can carry pax.
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Monocock,
Interesting "fact" about high ground killing pilots...
Did you think before you wrote that?
Since the NPPL was introduced, what about 2 months ago, I guess your "research" relates to CAA/JAA pilots
Maybe "well respected CFIs" (your words) need to spend more time training people in basic flying skills than preaching!
FWIW, my view isn't changed from the previous discussion about JAA-PPL -v- NPPL.
But these reasons for knocking it are pretty crap.
Interesting "fact" about high ground killing pilots...
Did you think before you wrote that?
Since the NPPL was introduced, what about 2 months ago, I guess your "research" relates to CAA/JAA pilots
Maybe "well respected CFIs" (your words) need to spend more time training people in basic flying skills than preaching!
FWIW, my view isn't changed from the previous discussion about JAA-PPL -v- NPPL.
But these reasons for knocking it are pretty crap.
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The NPPL is not going to save anyone much money, and for people with medical problems who can't get a JAA class 2 medical, there has always been other ways to fly...for example an FAA licence. Doesn't take much effort to do a bit of research on this.
EA
PS I'm all for scrapping JAA though. I'm no airline wannabe, but I do want to fly around the UK in a ME aircraft in IMC...which I can't do with a NPPL !
EA
PS I'm all for scrapping JAA though. I'm no airline wannabe, but I do want to fly around the UK in a ME aircraft in IMC...which I can't do with a NPPL !
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I agree with you. The NPPL does fit the needs of many people and is ideal in that respect.
As i said in my first post on here, dont think that i said that the NPPL was for old men etc...
I do see the FI's point of view but i do not agree with it.
Well done to the founders of the NPPL.
As i said in my first post on here, dont think that i said that the NPPL was for old men etc...
I do see the FI's point of view but i do not agree with it.
Well done to the founders of the NPPL.
I cannot believe the arrogance of any instructor who thinks that training a person who has no desire to go beyond a PPL is a waste of time 
Prats like that need to be reminded that it's the people who desire a PPL are paying for their flying, mortgage etc. If I was in a school run by somebody with that attitude I'd leave and they would be very clear about why I'd left.
I'm sure that a lot of people who apply for an NPPL will take as long to get their licence as a PPL, some people take a while to learn the basic skills. If these people do not want to do an IMC or fly foriegn but DO want a reasonable medical then the NPPL is the way to go. I can count of the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been to France (although I did fly in Singapore) so the relaxed medical now that I'm 45 will be very welcome. As you can gather, I think the NPPL is a great idea. It has long been known (even by the CAA) that the PPL medical is over restrictive eg when did an ECG (Extra Cash Generator) ever predict heart problems. Oh, that's never then.
A person driving an HGV down any one of Britain's motorways is 99% sure to do far more damage if he/she dies at the wheel than if the same person was in a light aircraft. More or less by definition truckers operate in a relatively high people density environment, pilots generally don't for the majority of their flying. Also, when was the last accident in the UK caused by a trucker dying at the wheel? I can't recall one.
Rant mode OFF
Prats like that need to be reminded that it's the people who desire a PPL are paying for their flying, mortgage etc. If I was in a school run by somebody with that attitude I'd leave and they would be very clear about why I'd left.
I'm sure that a lot of people who apply for an NPPL will take as long to get their licence as a PPL, some people take a while to learn the basic skills. If these people do not want to do an IMC or fly foriegn but DO want a reasonable medical then the NPPL is the way to go. I can count of the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been to France (although I did fly in Singapore) so the relaxed medical now that I'm 45 will be very welcome. As you can gather, I think the NPPL is a great idea. It has long been known (even by the CAA) that the PPL medical is over restrictive eg when did an ECG (Extra Cash Generator) ever predict heart problems. Oh, that's never then.
A person driving an HGV down any one of Britain's motorways is 99% sure to do far more damage if he/she dies at the wheel than if the same person was in a light aircraft. More or less by definition truckers operate in a relatively high people density environment, pilots generally don't for the majority of their flying. Also, when was the last accident in the UK caused by a trucker dying at the wheel? I can't recall one.
Rant mode OFF
Yes, you can upgrade from NPPL(SEP) to JAR-FCL PPL with SEP rating.
Currently there is only one way and that is to top up all the NPPL training you did (which must have been with a JAR-FCL FI) by adding any extra dual, solo, cross-country time you need before taking the JAR-FCL PPL Skill Test. No further theoretical requirements - one reason why we agreed not to introduce the NPPL-specific exams we were considering.
I will be asking for another way to be introduced to allow those who obtained their NPPL(SEP) through licence allowances (e.g. by topping up SLMG, glider or microlight time) with further 'experience' requirements. These proposals are currently sub rosa.
The reason why some people would start with the NPPL and go on to the JAR-FCL PPL is primarily that of cost. It will take less flying time; all the basic training is the same for either licence and the NPPL navigation element is about the same as it used to be for the UK PPL. Many folk will be happy to build up their experience over a few years, then upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL. Then add the IMC Rating and/or night qualification, then maybe the multi Rating.
There is nothing stopping people doing most of their JAR-FCL PPL upgrade on a multi, if that's what they want and can afford, of course.
Currently there is only one way and that is to top up all the NPPL training you did (which must have been with a JAR-FCL FI) by adding any extra dual, solo, cross-country time you need before taking the JAR-FCL PPL Skill Test. No further theoretical requirements - one reason why we agreed not to introduce the NPPL-specific exams we were considering.
I will be asking for another way to be introduced to allow those who obtained their NPPL(SEP) through licence allowances (e.g. by topping up SLMG, glider or microlight time) with further 'experience' requirements. These proposals are currently sub rosa.
The reason why some people would start with the NPPL and go on to the JAR-FCL PPL is primarily that of cost. It will take less flying time; all the basic training is the same for either licence and the NPPL navigation element is about the same as it used to be for the UK PPL. Many folk will be happy to build up their experience over a few years, then upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL. Then add the IMC Rating and/or night qualification, then maybe the multi Rating.
There is nothing stopping people doing most of their JAR-FCL PPL upgrade on a multi, if that's what they want and can afford, of course.
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As someone who had their medical revoked by the jobsworth staff of the CAA medical division I welcome the introduction of the NPPL. I've now got my declaration form signed by my GP who was happy to do so (but had to part with £70 for the privelege). So I shall soon be endeavouring to get in a SEP skills test and difference training for the SLMG. Guess you don't get a discount for applying for both at the same time? So well done to Beagle and his colleagues for making this possible.
Incidentally for someone deemed unfit to hold a PPL I've been flying sailplanes and now have all three diamonds which for those who don't know is cross country flights of 300 and 500 kilometres and a height gain of 16400 feet (went to 21000 feet in Aboyne,Scotland).
Incidentally for someone deemed unfit to hold a PPL I've been flying sailplanes and now have all three diamonds which for those who don't know is cross country flights of 300 and 500 kilometres and a height gain of 16400 feet (went to 21000 feet in Aboyne,Scotland).
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Never turn down a chance to cut restrictions! As a semi retired airline captain with over 15000 hours and a Jodel operated under the PFA, when the company finally stops paying my medical I shall be delighted to change to an NPPL with the considerably lower medical costs, and as the restrictions on my a/c match the restrictions on the NPPL, no problems. Hopelfully many happy years of standing in grass fields in UK chatting to the same people I chatted to a week ago in a different field. There is no sane reason for not backing the NPPL!
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I think at the end of the day the NPPL is a great thing.Getting more people in the skies can only be a good thing.
As Beagle mentioned,it CAN be upgraded to a PPL...I honestly think the pilots who get a NPPL will be safe and I will be more than happy to share the skies with them.
Think about it,for most,you`ve gone solo in under say 25 hours...you can take off,climb out to a desired altitude,do basic turns to a desired heading,and that controlled crash to earth called landing!!folks,thats all there is to the rocket science of flying!!!...I think the biggest problem (if there were one) would be navigating..I`m not sure of the x/c time required.
As Beagle mentioned,it CAN be upgraded to a PPL...I honestly think the pilots who get a NPPL will be safe and I will be more than happy to share the skies with them.
Think about it,for most,you`ve gone solo in under say 25 hours...you can take off,climb out to a desired altitude,do basic turns to a desired heading,and that controlled crash to earth called landing!!folks,thats all there is to the rocket science of flying!!!...I think the biggest problem (if there were one) would be navigating..I`m not sure of the x/c time required.
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Lets take a look at this in a different way. The NPPL is designed for fun flying.
It will allow a lot of existing pilots of Microlights and Gliders to get a more useful licence in vastly less time and expense than the old system.
It will allow a lot of ex pilots to get their licences back at relatively low expense.
It will allow a lot of ex pilots and want to be pilots to get a licence who would not pass the expensive and unnecessary JAR medical.
OK so what if you do not fit into any of the above.
I currently hold a full medical, which has just been renewed at a cost of £100 and ½ a day of my time. I have to go through this process every 2 years. On an NPPL I would have to get a certificate signed by my doctor every 5 years, taking 5 min and costing about £40. Which would you choose?
Most people in the UK fly VFR and do not go abroad. Why would they want a JAR PPL?
1000’s of pilots in the UK are flying in PFA aircraft. These aircraft are not allowed in IMC or to fly ant Night. Why would these pilots want a JAR PPL?
There is a feeling that an NPPL holder is not a proper pilot, and one must go for a JAR PPL for some “snob value”. I hope this will cease. In time the NPPL holders will exceed the JAR version. We all need to be on the same side and pull together, or our hobby will be even more restricted.
There is much hope that an agreement can reached with France to accept NPPL holders, much like the old agreement covering Microlight pliots. If this happens, even more people will switch to NPPL, including me.
Rod
It will allow a lot of existing pilots of Microlights and Gliders to get a more useful licence in vastly less time and expense than the old system.
It will allow a lot of ex pilots to get their licences back at relatively low expense.
It will allow a lot of ex pilots and want to be pilots to get a licence who would not pass the expensive and unnecessary JAR medical.
OK so what if you do not fit into any of the above.
I currently hold a full medical, which has just been renewed at a cost of £100 and ½ a day of my time. I have to go through this process every 2 years. On an NPPL I would have to get a certificate signed by my doctor every 5 years, taking 5 min and costing about £40. Which would you choose?
Most people in the UK fly VFR and do not go abroad. Why would they want a JAR PPL?
1000’s of pilots in the UK are flying in PFA aircraft. These aircraft are not allowed in IMC or to fly ant Night. Why would these pilots want a JAR PPL?
There is a feeling that an NPPL holder is not a proper pilot, and one must go for a JAR PPL for some “snob value”. I hope this will cease. In time the NPPL holders will exceed the JAR version. We all need to be on the same side and pull together, or our hobby will be even more restricted.
There is much hope that an agreement can reached with France to accept NPPL holders, much like the old agreement covering Microlight pliots. If this happens, even more people will switch to NPPL, including me.
Rod