Poh c172 rg before landing

[graziani]

What is the meaning ?
By Cessna:
…………POH C 172 RG : ………BEFORE LANDING

In view of the relatively low drag of the extended landing gear and the high allowable gear operating speed (140 KIAS), the landing gear should be extended before entering the traffic pattern. This practice will allow more time to confirm that the landing gear is down and locked. As a further precaution, leave the landing gear extended in go-around procedures or traffic patterns for touch-and-go landings……………

why? To save manteinace?..,...but for training?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Reduces the risk of a pilot fouling up and landing gear up!

G

[Pilot DAR]

In addition to overlooking the extension of the landing gear, leaving it down for circuits assures that a gear up on the next landing is impossible. The 172RG/182RG landing gear systems are excellent, but not perfect. (They are different from the 177RG, and some 210's gear systems).

That being said, from a pilot training perspective, learning to not operate the landing gear, when normally it would be operated is not ideal either. I am aware that a smaller airline which operated a mixed fleet fixed gear (Twin Otters) and retractables, had DHC install landing gear selectors in the fixed gear Twin Otters, and put that action on the checklists, just so it became muscle memory for the pilots to operate the landing gear and check position for ever landing, even if the Twin Otter gear was always down!

[Fly-by-Wife]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

In addition to overlooking the extension of the landing gear, leaving it down for circuits assures that a gear up on the next landing is impossible.

If the landing gear is DOWN for a go around, and climb out, isn't there the possibility of moving the landing gear lever during the ensuing circuit (as one is - hopefully - accustomed to do), which would then inadvertently raise the gear instead? I believe it has occurred.

[EXDAC]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

Reduces the risk of a pilot fouling up and landing gear up!

Some would argue that it increases the risk of landing gear up. The pilot is being trained that it's ok to operate that aircraft without extending the gear before each landing.

They say there are those that have landed gear up and those that are going to. I took myself off that list a few years ago by only flying fixed gear. Only had the glider gear warning go off once in several thousand hours. That one time justified the effort of fitting it.

[Pilot DAR]

isn't there the possibility of moving the landing gear lever during the ensuing circuit

I suppose any mistake is possible!

It is worth noting that a 172RG, like nearly all RG wheel landplanes has an effective landing gear position warning horn. That should be consider a luxury, and a careful pilot should directly assure intended landing gear position without the aid of warning systems. This should be done in all cases of RG airplanes by the pilot thinking about what they are going to do, then thinking about what they are doing, then confirming what they have done, then speaking the checklist to assure the intended configuration. The thinking, confirming, and speaking actions should make a mistake extremely unlikely, leaving only a systems failure to be the unknown factor.

Amphibians and wheel ski planes are examples of types for which the pilot must select the landing gear position correctly, and confirm it, generally without the aid of a warning system. Similarly, one might decide to deliberately land an RG landplane with the wheels retracted (ditching/off airport forced landing). in which case, again, think, confirm, speak what you have done. When I train in these types, regardless of whatever warning systems may be built into the airplane, I insist that the pilot observe the intended landing gear position, and surface and then state them out loud, preferably downwind. It'll be one of: "Wheels are down for runway landing"/"wheels are up for water landing"/"skis are extended fro snow landing"/"skis are retracted for hard surface landing"/"wheels are retracted for ditching", etc. With such discipline, wrong landing gear positons are much less likely.

And, it is worth noting that many RG landplanes use a throttle(s) position sensor to operate the gear position warning horn. So, if you carry power through the landing, and forget the gear extension, you may have defeated the warning system. In terms of warning systems, silence is not a warning. So, when a pilot hears silence, there should still be an expectation of confirming as a manual action, and speaking the outcome in terms of the expectation.

Two years ago, I did test flying (for another reason) on a Cessna 185 amphibian, in which, at some point in history (I'm thinking at least five years earlier - so four annual inspections ago at the time) the manual landing gear extension system was rigged backward, so a down selection, with operation of the handpump would raise the landing gear. It indicated position correctly, but what would the pilot think if they had thought that they had just pumped the gear down?

Operate the landing gear as you intend, with thinking, confirmation of what you have done, and speaking the observation of the resulting selection!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by EXDAC

Some would argue that it increases the risk of landing gear up. The pilot is being trained that it's ok to operate that aircraft without extending the gear before each landing.

They say there are those that have landed gear up and those that are going to. I took myself off that list a few years ago by only flying fixed gear. Only had the glider gear warning go off once in several thousand hours. That one time justified the effort of fitting it.

I'd expect the pilot being drilled in checking gear position and controls anyhow, as for that matter we do in fixed gear aeroplanes. Doesn't make it necessary to actualy operate the controls.

I've never had a gear-up landing either, but like you have an instance of that being prevented by a well designed warning horn.

G

[Jhieminga]

Note that this question is also being discussed in the FIs & Examiners forum as the C172RG in question is being used for FI training: POH C172 RG

Copying part of my response from that thread: Cessna may have put the text there to protect against the 'typical' early 1980's GA pilot, someone who may have trained on fixed gear types and is prone to forget the gear handle is there. Especially as 98% of the C172 fleet doesn't have a gear handle.

[Fl1ingfrog]

Human factors are very much part of all this. From the very beginning flip checklists are introduced and become the norm; some checks are learnt by reference to the printed list others to be performed by memory as needs must. These checks are rarely lifted directly from the aircraft Manual/POH. It is common to buy checklists for a particular type from a commercial provider. Within these, almost without exception, "Landing gear down and locked" was always included as part of the 'downwind checks' commonly known as BUMPH checks. This simple RAF mnemonic could be extended to reflect more detail; sometimes so long it is a task in itself to learn and commit to memory. In practice these checks are taught together with the relevant touch controls (no actions are part of it). The danger here is that the exercise becomes a beginning and end in itself. The reasoning behind all this therefore becomes forgotten even thought "pointless". Some items will have no purpose in most small training aircraft without retractable gear and constant speed propellers. Certainly in the UK climate the mixture will be only adjusted 'rich' for starting and 'fully lean' to shut down. One common question asked by ab initio students is "why do we keep checking this when we never find anything?" for too many the checks are a burden. I remember well a Piper Arrow owner who twice landed with the gear up: he relied on the Arrow automatic gear down on final having reduced the throttle and therefore the vacuum pressure below the critical gear activation point.

Learning on the Cessna 172 RG could have advantages.

[Pilot DAR]

being prevented by a well designed warning horn.

I have a different perspective; it's pretty hard to design a landing gear warning system, even on an RG landplane, which is foolproof. Remember, "silence is not a warning...".

Pilot of a 177RG I used to rent runs it out of fuel, good forced landing area ahead.... So he runs the checklist - quickly.... [secure engine, extend flaps], select wheels down, then... according to the checklist: "Master Switch -- OFF". So, not only did witching the master off (in accordance with the checklist) disable the gear warning system, but... he'd turned the master switch off before the gear was fully extended. He did not hear a gear warning horn, and did not confirm the landing gear position (he could have hand pumped it the rest of the way. So, he force landed in a really good field, with the gear part way down. They wrote off my favourite Cardinal.

Pilot carries power through the landing, so throttles are never as far back toward idle as the warn switch. When I started flying the Piper Navajo, I found that it seemed to land nicely with power carried through into the flare. I then reminded myself that I was cheating myself out of the gear warning system. So, I made it my habit, after confirming visually that the gear was down, to momentarily pull the throttles to idle, and confirm that the gear horn did not operate. Now silence is not a warning, so that did not count for much, but I had visually confirmed the gear position before doing this - that was my most important check.

One of the C185 amphibians I flew had a really expensive lidar gear warning system - it purported to be able to detect if the plane was over land, or water, and give the appropriate warning of out of and configuration landing gear position. 'Problem is that many floatplane landings are approaches over land, to cross the shore for a water landing. So, no warning, until you cross over to the water, to then get a warning that your wheels are extended - you're going to have to react really quickly then!

Any training I do on RG's will require the pilot to observe the landing gear position, and state it out loud, along with the intended landing surface. Even for a straight landplane RG, it will be: "Wheels are down for runway landing.". Because, even for a landplane RG, it could also be: "wheels are up for ditching", or "wheels are up for off airport forced landing". It is up to the pilot to be aware of the type of airplane that they are flying, and it's systems. There is no excuse for not being able to use whatever visual system the airplane has for confirming gear position, thinking about it, and where you're planning to land, and speaking that out loud. It reassures passenger too!

[B2N2]

As part of training you should learn which portions of the POH are mandatory, recommended or advisory.
So if you’re training in a complex you ‘train’ gear up/gear down/gear up/gear down till you’re blue in the face because that is the ‘complex’ part.
If you’re the private owner of the airplane you may choose to leave the gear down in a go-around or when you are doing landings for passenger currency.
The POH allows you to do this.

Examiner question:
Is it required to bring the gear up after take off?
If yes why, if no why?

[Fl1ingfrog]

Examiner question: Is it required to bring the gear up after take off? If yes why, if no why?

The climb after take off can be a very busy time. Well practised sequences could be the difference to the successful outcome or not following an engine failure during the climb out. Gear up will give the best climb rate and so height gained but also the best glide. If the purpose is to brush up the landing then no doubt all other events in the circuit will benefit including the approach - the glide and flapless and not forgetting a low level very tight poor weather circuit - doing all this will also provide some fun whilst sharpening all skills.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by B2N2

As part of training you should learn which portions of the POH are mandatory, recommended or advisory.
So if you’re training in a complex you ‘train’ gear up/gear down/gear up/gear down till you’re blue in the face because that is the ‘complex’ part.
If you’re the private owner of the airplane you may choose to leave the gear down in a go-around or when you are doing landings for passenger currency.
The POH allows you to do this.

Examiner question:
Is it required to bring the gear up after take off?
If yes why, if no why?

Not raising the gear during a flight test would be a major error if the aircraft was flying a circuit and a fail if the aircraft was departing the circuit. If the candidate did not raise the gear in the circuit because that was a flight school SOP I would have a sit down with the Chief Flying Instructor and explain why this was a bad practice and I did not want to see it on future flight tests.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A related question is when do you raise the gear after liftoff? I teach my students to raise the gear as soon as the airplane achieves climb speed and a positive rate of climb. The rational is that the airplane will climb substantially better with the gear up and altitude = options for SEP's in the event of an EFATO

[Pilot DAR]

A related question is when do you raise the gear after liftoff?

I will not raise the gear before positive rate and Vy, unless it's a Vx critical departure, which would be pushing things anyway! That said, I will generally wait until I have overflown whatever suitable wheels down runway over run, or clear area ahead could be used for an EFATO forced landing.

Decades back I was being checked out in a rental Piper Arrow IV in Florida. It was a hot day, and the instructor directed me into a runway a little shorter than I would have preferred. No problem getting in, but getting out was not a perfect scenario - there was lots of city off the departure end of the runway. I informed the instructor that because I felt this would be a more "maximum performance" departure, I would "lock off" the Piper Arrow automatic gear extension system, which I also knew (from previous embarrassing event) would prevent the retraction of the gear after an up selection, if the magic airspeed had not been reached. I wanted the gear to retract when I wanted it up, to make the most of my departure. The instructor (whom I'm not sure had ever flown an Arrow) a: did not understand what I was talking about, and b: then, upon my explanation, objected to my deliberately bypassing a safety system. I replied that he could allow me to do it and pass my ride, allow me to do it, and fail my ride, or take the airplane home without me aboard. I locked off the auto gear extension, departed just fine, and passed my ride. I wondered if the instructor went to review the POH for the Arrow IV that evening!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Pilot DAR

I will not raise the gear before positive rate and Vy, unless it's a Vx critical departure, which would be pushing things anyway! That said, I will generally wait until I have overflown whatever suitable wheels down runway over run, or clear area ahead could be used for an EFATO forced landing.

Decades back I was being checked out in a rental Piper Arrow IV in Florida. It was a hot day, and the instructor directed me into a runway a little shorter than I would have preferred. No problem getting in, but getting out was not a perfect scenario - there was lots of city off the departure end of the runway. I informed the instructor that because I felt this would be a more "maximum performance" departure, I would "lock off" the Piper Arrow automatic gear extension system, which I also knew (from previous embarrassing event) would prevent the retraction of the gear after an up selection, if the magic airspeed had not been reached. I wanted the gear to retract when I wanted it up, to make the most of my departure. The instructor (whom I'm not sure had ever flown an Arrow) a: did not understand what I was talking about, and b: then, upon my explanation, objected to my deliberately bypassing a safety system. I replied that he could allow me to do it and pass my ride, allow me to do it, and fail my ride, or take the airplane home without me aboard. I locked off the auto gear extension, departed just fine, and passed my ride. I wondered if the instructor went to review the POH for the Arrow IV that evening!

The challenge for low time pilots is deciding when they have "runway available for landing" . My experience is that newer pilots leave the gear down and thus sacrifice climb performance well after there is any reasonable chance of landing back on the runway surface in the event of an EFATO. Furthermore in almost all circumstances it is better to land off airfield with the wheels up in order to reduce the possibility of the airplane cartwheeling or overturning. An engine failure shortly after takeoff is one of the most desperate emergencies a SEP will ever face. Human factors research has convincingly shown that people have difficultly making rapid consequential decisions in time compressed high stress situations. This is why the concept of a hard line of go/no go at v1 was instituted. No analysis is required; below v1 you stop above v1 you go. If that is the best approach for professional pilots who fly everyday I don't think a higher level of performance is realistic for recreational pilots.

That is why I like the idea of climb speed positive rate gear up. If the engine fails after liftoff you have one less thing to worry about. Finally if the engine fails the insurance company just bought the airplane. What it looks like after the dust settles is immaterial, the only thing that matters is that nobody got hurt. There have been many tragic accidents where the pilot killed everyone trying to save the airplane.