What Would You Do ? (3)
Thread Starter
What Would You Do ? (3)
The event I will describe occurred while flying formation but the engine issue could just have easily occurred when I was flying alone and other than the initial re-organization of the formation my actions would have been the same.
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
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The first thing I'd do would be to call the formation to break it up. An unstable formation lead aircraft (one with a surging engine) could lead to more than the loss of just one aircraft. I'd then do what "sharpend" suggested.
Cheers,
Grog
Cheers,
Grog
Thread Starter
Re Formation Actions
As per FAST SOP's as soon as the engine stumbled I told the formation I had a problem, detached the second element ( #3 and #4) and sent my wingman to the chase plane position (45 deg line and 300-500 ft spacing)
As per FAST SOP's as soon as the engine stumbled I told the formation I had a problem, detached the second element ( #3 and #4) and sent my wingman to the chase plane position (45 deg line and 300-500 ft spacing)
I didn't know what FAST was, so I looked it up. 
Formation and Safety Team | Formation And Safety Team
Now that's what I call a mixed formation!
Formation and Safety Team | Formation And Safety Team
Now that's what I call a mixed formation!
The event I will describe occurred while flying formation but the engine issue could just have easily occurred when I was flying alone and other than the initial re-organization of the formation my actions would have been the same.
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
What was your height?
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You already did what I would do, turn back.
Other than that, and not knowing the aircraft myself.
Full rich - you did that
Carburettor heater
Fuel pump
Check fuel - switch to fullest (Piper 28)
Try magnetos, switch between right and left to see if that makes any difference.
But like I always say to my own students, grab the damn checklists if you're not about to die right away... I mean, if you have time for it.
Since I just looked up the checklist, I can see I forgot one item (depending on going for "roughness" or "power loss"):
Check the primer is locked....
That's why we have checklists.
Other than that, and not knowing the aircraft myself.
Full rich - you did that
Carburettor heater
Fuel pump
Check fuel - switch to fullest (Piper 28)
Try magnetos, switch between right and left to see if that makes any difference.
But like I always say to my own students, grab the damn checklists if you're not about to die right away... I mean, if you have time for it.
Since I just looked up the checklist, I can see I forgot one item (depending on going for "roughness" or "power loss"):
Check the primer is locked....
That's why we have checklists.
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The event I will describe occurred while flying formation but the engine issue could just have easily occurred when I was flying alone and other than the initial re-organization of the formation my actions would have been the same.
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
I was flying my Nanchang CJ6 leading a 4 ship formation of Nanchang's and my troubles started with a mild RPM oscillations. So I went to full rich, scanned the gauges, which were normal and then turned the formation towards our home airport which was about 15 miles away. As soon as I had finished the turn the engine stumbled with a noticeable and significant momentary loss of power before picking up again. The engine gauges showed normal readings for the conditions and power setting.
What would you do ?
Fuel filters clogging up will give hiccup etc. warnings before restricting flow enough to stop an engine. (There's also a recent thread here on an antique crashing due to debris clogging the fuel line)
Thread Starter
More detail
For the first half of the trip back to the airport the choice was fly over a city or around the edge over water, so I obviously stayed over the water. As we chugged back home the engine was intermittently stumbling but still maintaining power. At this point I decided not to touch anything on the theory that I did not want to mess with what was working. I told the tower I was doing a straight in on the runway that was basically aligned with the track back to the airport and starting to feel relatively sanguine when the engine without warning quit cold. I was startled enough to do nothing and after maybe 2 seconds the engine roared back to life. It ran for maybe 5 seconds and then quit again. Again I froze for a second and the cycle repeated itself. The third time with no action on my part the engine stayed running.
At this point I was about lined up with the runway but not quite in gliding range. I needed to go about 1.5 to 2 nm further to make the runway power off ( the Nanchang is not a good glider). I was over a 4 lane divided highway with a moderate amount of traffic. There were no other landable areas in gliding range ( forest or houses). The other option was to turn right towards the shore line of the bay that my track was basically paralleling and which was in gliding range.
What would you do ?
For the first half of the trip back to the airport the choice was fly over a city or around the edge over water, so I obviously stayed over the water. As we chugged back home the engine was intermittently stumbling but still maintaining power. At this point I decided not to touch anything on the theory that I did not want to mess with what was working. I told the tower I was doing a straight in on the runway that was basically aligned with the track back to the airport and starting to feel relatively sanguine when the engine without warning quit cold. I was startled enough to do nothing and after maybe 2 seconds the engine roared back to life. It ran for maybe 5 seconds and then quit again. Again I froze for a second and the cycle repeated itself. The third time with no action on my part the engine stayed running.
At this point I was about lined up with the runway but not quite in gliding range. I needed to go about 1.5 to 2 nm further to make the runway power off ( the Nanchang is not a good glider). I was over a 4 lane divided highway with a moderate amount of traffic. There were no other landable areas in gliding range ( forest or houses). The other option was to turn right towards the shore line of the bay that my track was basically paralleling and which was in gliding range.
What would you do ?
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I recall someone saying or writing that the airplane is disposable, the pilot and crew are not. A ditching (water "landing") in a retractable gear airplane is usually survivable; however, the seat cushion would no longer be available to me for flotation, having been consumed bit by bit as the engine did its periodic best to frighten me to death. Flotation available or not, I'd head for the water.
Cheers,
Grog
Cheers,
Grog
Did you have another crew who can fly,competently..?
Put your wingman on side away from river..did he notice any flames/black smoke when it lost power..? no signs of fuel leak/oil leak..?..how is the cyl .hd temp.,steady ,or up/down abnormal..?.
After you turned about,I would have set about climbing,even 100-200 f/min,provided I was not reducing speed too much,as every little helps...
It seems like an intermittent fuel flow problem,or possibly a choked intake,possibly ice,or dust,so change it to hot/alternate.
I`d also set the `primer` to CYL if it`s like a Yak,as you may have fuel vapourisation...you may also have a blocked fuel vent....
Otherwise ,climb as much as you can,and if it quits,hit the primer to keep going. If it don`t work,head for the beach,assumin 7700 is on,get the PROP into minimum RPM,cooling gills open,keep the a/c clean,and crash `under control....
Still here,you did a full fuel drain check before t/o....?
Put your wingman on side away from river..did he notice any flames/black smoke when it lost power..? no signs of fuel leak/oil leak..?..how is the cyl .hd temp.,steady ,or up/down abnormal..?.
After you turned about,I would have set about climbing,even 100-200 f/min,provided I was not reducing speed too much,as every little helps...
It seems like an intermittent fuel flow problem,or possibly a choked intake,possibly ice,or dust,so change it to hot/alternate.
I`d also set the `primer` to CYL if it`s like a Yak,as you may have fuel vapourisation...you may also have a blocked fuel vent....
Otherwise ,climb as much as you can,and if it quits,hit the primer to keep going. If it don`t work,head for the beach,assumin 7700 is on,get the PROP into minimum RPM,cooling gills open,keep the a/c clean,and crash `under control....
Still here,you did a full fuel drain check before t/o....?
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I'm not there, so cannot say, but not touching anything is a bit contrary to what we're taught in this situation.
But trying to get over forest, built up areas etc. just trying to reach the runway, and with absolutely no place to land, should the engine quit..... I wouldn't go for the airport.... Find a nice flat area that is landable, and land there. Rather that than end up in trees.
Like the instructor always said, you'd rather run into the trees at the end of the landing area, than hitting the trees on very short final....
But trying to get over forest, built up areas etc. just trying to reach the runway, and with absolutely no place to land, should the engine quit..... I wouldn't go for the airport.... Find a nice flat area that is landable, and land there. Rather that than end up in trees.
Like the instructor always said, you'd rather run into the trees at the end of the landing area, than hitting the trees on very short final....
Thread Starter
I followed the shore line back towards the airport as the Nanchang is well suited to ditching as it has a low wing, retractable gear, and a full sliding canopy and I was wearing a PFD. However the siren call of the nice big runway prompted me to turn away from the shoreline and line up with the runway before I was in gliding range of the runway. This of course is when the engine quit as described in post #9. At this point I made a vary poor decision. Instead of immediately turning back to the shoreline I continued towards the runway. The engine needed to run for about another minute and a half to get me to the runway, which it did, but I had eliminated almost all of my options for that period and luckily for me I got away with it as the engine continued running until I closed the throttle in the flare when it quit again. I allowed the lure of the runway just about there to overcome good decision making which is a lesson I take very much to heart.
Needing to be lucky rather than good is not a place where you should be...
Some general thoughts
1) I have been flying for over 40 years, have 8000 hrs and 68 types in my log book. During that time I have had to deal with a variety of aircraft failures, but I can honestly say that this event was the one I had the hardest time with. If the engine had just quit I would have know exactly what to do. If I was able to get power back by identifying what caused the engine to quit, I would have known exactly what to do. But having an engine that was obviously unwell with no indications of what the problem was can paralyze thinking, especially when you are "almost" home.
2) I continue to believe that other than going to full rich mixture, ( carb air temp was 18 deg so carb heat was not selected) not touching anything else was the correct move until something changed. It turned out the problem was a failing carb diaphragm. A significant change of throttle position may have shut down the engine with no recovery possible.
3) A review of flight safety data implies that partial engine failures are more common than total engine failures, possibly as much as 3 times more likely. Having a decision tree sorted before you get one is a really good idea, rather than when the pressure is on. A good starting point is to know what the minimum power is required to maintain safe level flight. If you don't have that power available than you can immediately move to the forced landing plan if you do have that you then you have more options. My experience is most pilots don't know the minimum RPM or min MP at full fine needed.
4) The way flight training teaches the engine failure scenario is IMO opinion fatally flawed. When the instructor reaches over and pulls the throttle back and says "simulated engine failure" the scenario is effectively an airplane that had a full preflight inspection with no faults found, had completed runup with no faults found, completed a normal takeoff, and is flying with normal engine and fuel indications, suddenly has the engine suffer a complete and instantaneous failure. If you look at the accidents record this scenario is the least likely example of what could happen to you. Far more likely it will fail because of something you are in control of (eg carb ice, fuel management) or will give some warning like my example in the first what would you do post. Discussion of examples of pilot induced engine failures and forced landing exercises that start with a partial failure is almost never taught in flight training. The systems checks conducted right after the engine fails are also usually glossed over but can often restore power if done correctly.
As a final thought and a bit off topic, I remember reading a accident report in Pilot magazine about a Pa 28 which had an engine failure and conducted a forced approach. The were no good fields in range but the pilot conducted a successful forced approach into the best place which resulted in no injures but substantial damage to the aircraft. This successful outcome required skillful flying. The report noted that the attributed his success to the fact that he regularly practiced forced approaches. The engine was test run with no fault found. Given that the temp was +5 C with a small temp dew point spread the cause of the engine failure was deemed to be carb icing.
The pilot can always prevent the engine from failing due to carb icing with early recognition and prompt action, even in the worst possible carb icing conditions, I would suggest that if the pilot had spent a little less time practicing forced approaches and more time practicing engine monitoring and strategies to recognize and take action on aircraft indications that could be the precursors to engine failure, there would be one more Piper flying today.....
Needing to be lucky rather than good is not a place where you should be...
Some general thoughts
1) I have been flying for over 40 years, have 8000 hrs and 68 types in my log book. During that time I have had to deal with a variety of aircraft failures, but I can honestly say that this event was the one I had the hardest time with. If the engine had just quit I would have know exactly what to do. If I was able to get power back by identifying what caused the engine to quit, I would have known exactly what to do. But having an engine that was obviously unwell with no indications of what the problem was can paralyze thinking, especially when you are "almost" home.
2) I continue to believe that other than going to full rich mixture, ( carb air temp was 18 deg so carb heat was not selected) not touching anything else was the correct move until something changed. It turned out the problem was a failing carb diaphragm. A significant change of throttle position may have shut down the engine with no recovery possible.
3) A review of flight safety data implies that partial engine failures are more common than total engine failures, possibly as much as 3 times more likely. Having a decision tree sorted before you get one is a really good idea, rather than when the pressure is on. A good starting point is to know what the minimum power is required to maintain safe level flight. If you don't have that power available than you can immediately move to the forced landing plan if you do have that you then you have more options. My experience is most pilots don't know the minimum RPM or min MP at full fine needed.
4) The way flight training teaches the engine failure scenario is IMO opinion fatally flawed. When the instructor reaches over and pulls the throttle back and says "simulated engine failure" the scenario is effectively an airplane that had a full preflight inspection with no faults found, had completed runup with no faults found, completed a normal takeoff, and is flying with normal engine and fuel indications, suddenly has the engine suffer a complete and instantaneous failure. If you look at the accidents record this scenario is the least likely example of what could happen to you. Far more likely it will fail because of something you are in control of (eg carb ice, fuel management) or will give some warning like my example in the first what would you do post. Discussion of examples of pilot induced engine failures and forced landing exercises that start with a partial failure is almost never taught in flight training. The systems checks conducted right after the engine fails are also usually glossed over but can often restore power if done correctly.
As a final thought and a bit off topic, I remember reading a accident report in Pilot magazine about a Pa 28 which had an engine failure and conducted a forced approach. The were no good fields in range but the pilot conducted a successful forced approach into the best place which resulted in no injures but substantial damage to the aircraft. This successful outcome required skillful flying. The report noted that the attributed his success to the fact that he regularly practiced forced approaches. The engine was test run with no fault found. Given that the temp was +5 C with a small temp dew point spread the cause of the engine failure was deemed to be carb icing.
The pilot can always prevent the engine from failing due to carb icing with early recognition and prompt action, even in the worst possible carb icing conditions, I would suggest that if the pilot had spent a little less time practicing forced approaches and more time practicing engine monitoring and strategies to recognize and take action on aircraft indications that could be the precursors to engine failure, there would be one more Piper flying today.....
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 7th Jul 2020 at 20:25.
