PIC in the back seat
Here’s one for you.
Student pilot - left seat
Pilot examiner - right seat
FAA inspector - back seat observing the Pilot examiner conduct a check-ride.
Here’s a second scenario:
Student pilot - left seat
Flight Instructor - right seat
Chief Flight Instructor(me)- back seat observing the Instructor.
You can bet your beans that I am PIC in the back seat in that scenario.
In case of accident or incident the FAA would consider the highest rated pilot in a position to interfere in the outcome of the flight as (partially) responsible.
* It is however not loggable time.
Student pilot - left seat
Pilot examiner - right seat
FAA inspector - back seat observing the Pilot examiner conduct a check-ride.
Here’s a second scenario:
Student pilot - left seat
Flight Instructor - right seat
Chief Flight Instructor(me)- back seat observing the Instructor.
You can bet your beans that I am PIC in the back seat in that scenario.
In case of accident or incident the FAA would consider the highest rated pilot in a position to interfere in the outcome of the flight as (partially) responsible.
* It is however not loggable time.
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Probably meant he just has to be onboard for his insurance to cover.... otherwise it would be a thrid-party flying the aircraft, and it would either not cover, or be more expensive?
Question was as my first post. The insurance company were asked if the PIC can be sat in the back (with two other pilots in the front). They said yes, no problem.
If it's an insurance issue, then I suspect that the term PIC is confusing things. For insurance purposes, Sam R. needs to be on board but may be in the backseat. For operational purposes it's probably best to have one of the frontseaters act as PIC. Personally, that's the way I would approach it, although there may will be better ways to solve this.
Edit: just thought of a way to check the legality of this.... damage the aircraft a bit during this operation and claim it on your insurance.
Edit: just thought of a way to check the legality of this.... damage the aircraft a bit during this operation and claim it on your insurance.
On homonculus's point I disagree as my understading is that policy wording is contractual in nature and you cannot contract out of the law
None of which answers OP's question
In Oz my reading of the regs does not require the PIC to be sat at the controls, only that the required number of certified pilots be at the controls, they define the PIC simply as "Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time", as mentioned previously s/he can be in the bunk. My answer to the OP is yes.
I can't think of any regulations that prohibit the pilot in command being in the back seat, UNLESS the POH (which has legal standing of-course) requires the PiC to be in a particular seat.
But I'm reminded, as I often am, of an old boss of mine at Boscombe Down who gave me the advice "Before making any decision in aviation, always run through your mind the phrase 'at the subsequent board of inquiry' ".
In that case, I think that anybody who thinks that an FI in the back, with no qualified pilot in the front is acting professionally as PiC, is daft. But the case suggested above of an FE in the back checking an FI in the front who is instructing a student sat next to them: the FE being Captain. Well it's unusual, but no more problematic than the Captain of an airliner taking a rest break whilst two qualified pilots remain in the cockpit mid Atlantic.
Another instance might be a 2-seat tandem with no dual controls, current and qualified pilot at the controls, FI or CRI conducting a biennial from the other seat, logging PiC. What's wrong with that?
The quoted original case (four pilots in a PA28) sounds distinctly dodgy, as it sounds very much like four mates going flying together, and the one who happens to be an instructor trying to log everything. You are only, as an instructor, PiC in two circumstances. Either you're flying the thing yourself, or it is formally briefed, etc. as an instructional sortie. Simply being on board with an instructors rating does not make you able to log it as Captain. I've had a couple of instances where (as a CRI but really just going flying with a friend) they *afterwards* asked if they could count it as their biennal - to which I have always said no (but sweetened it by offering to do the biennial, properly briefed, for free in their own aircraft whenever they like, but strangely nobody has ever taken me up on that).
G
But I'm reminded, as I often am, of an old boss of mine at Boscombe Down who gave me the advice "Before making any decision in aviation, always run through your mind the phrase 'at the subsequent board of inquiry' ".
In that case, I think that anybody who thinks that an FI in the back, with no qualified pilot in the front is acting professionally as PiC, is daft. But the case suggested above of an FE in the back checking an FI in the front who is instructing a student sat next to them: the FE being Captain. Well it's unusual, but no more problematic than the Captain of an airliner taking a rest break whilst two qualified pilots remain in the cockpit mid Atlantic.
Another instance might be a 2-seat tandem with no dual controls, current and qualified pilot at the controls, FI or CRI conducting a biennial from the other seat, logging PiC. What's wrong with that?
The quoted original case (four pilots in a PA28) sounds distinctly dodgy, as it sounds very much like four mates going flying together, and the one who happens to be an instructor trying to log everything. You are only, as an instructor, PiC in two circumstances. Either you're flying the thing yourself, or it is formally briefed, etc. as an instructional sortie. Simply being on board with an instructors rating does not make you able to log it as Captain. I've had a couple of instances where (as a CRI but really just going flying with a friend) they *afterwards* asked if they could count it as their biennal - to which I have always said no (but sweetened it by offering to do the biennial, properly briefed, for free in their own aircraft whenever they like, but strangely nobody has ever taken me up on that).
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 24th Jun 2020 at 08:03.
The attached link makes for important reading. It was impossible for the examiner to be sat forward facing and secured in their seat whilst observing. The pilot seats are screened off from the passenger seats. The examiner in this situation would have to be sat sideways on a rear facing passenger seat, with a slackened harness, whilst peaking through the central access. I believe the FAA changed the rules following this accident to prevent FAA examining from the rear seats.
https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...rside-1-killed
https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...rside-1-killed
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In Oz my reading of the regs does not require the PIC to be sat at the controls, only that the required number of certified pilots be at the controls,
If I understand this in Post #1 Sam says that the GIB is the only one insured. I assume that if one of the highly qualified pilots at the controls breaks the aeroplane, the insurance company will walk away. That's how it would work in my car.
Insurance companies in my experience do not procrastinate on how/who/when a pilot is the PIC. They keep it simple and insure in accordance with the national authority regulations. They will of course sometimes stipulate restrictions, such as experience on type, but these will be clearly set out in the policy. They normally grant exemptions when asked to insure a safety situation say: when a type is single pilot but there is only one set of controls. This may include a CRI/instructor or another approved person to be in the non flying seat during a conversion, which most underwriters encourage.
In multi-crew aeroplanes regulation makes it clear who/when a pilot is the PIC but this is not comparable to single pilot operations, whatever the view of barrack room lawyers. For me it is a complete no-no for the PIC to ride in the rear seats with two others sat at the controls and it can never be justified..
In multi-crew aeroplanes regulation makes it clear who/when a pilot is the PIC but this is not comparable to single pilot operations, whatever the view of barrack room lawyers. For me it is a complete no-no for the PIC to ride in the rear seats with two others sat at the controls and it can never be justified..
I think insurance compagnies consider the Person in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.
Who is responsible during the operation?
Clearly there’re is no need for it to be the person manipulating the controls.
Who is responsible during the operation?
Clearly there’re is no need for it to be the person manipulating the controls.
Only half a speed-brake
Note to EASA multi-pilot operators:
Part-FCL no longer contains the term commander, except in some of the syllabus templates.
Part-OPS refers to commander in the usual manner, but the definition is missing.
Part-FCL no longer contains the term commander, except in some of the syllabus templates.
Part-OPS refers to commander in the usual manner, but the definition is missing.
"I think insurance companies consider thePerson in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.".
That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
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"I think insurance companies consider thePerson in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.".
That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
I never said the person in the back does not need hold a license.
Generally the person manipulating the controls aka “flying” is considered the “pilot” of the aircraft. The “pilot” does not need to be the PIC.
If the PIC is in the backseat he/she obviously needs to hold a valid medical/pilot certificate appropriate to the operation.
FAA:
The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers
The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall, whether manipulating the controls or not, be responsible for the operation of the aircraft in accordance with the rules of the air, except that the pilot-in-command may depart from these rules in circumstances that render such departure absolutely necessary in the interests of safety.
The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls