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PIC in the back seat

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PIC in the back seat

Old 23rd Jun 2020, 08:51
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by B2N2 View Post
Here’s one for you.

Student pilot - left seat
Pilot examiner - right seat
FAA inspector - back seat observing the Pilot examiner conduct a check-ride.

Here’s a second scenario:

Student pilot - left seat
Flight Instructor - right seat
Chief Flight Instructor(me)- back seat observing the Instructor.

You can bet your beans that I am PIC in the back seat in that scenario.
In case of accident or incident the FAA would consider the highest rated pilot in a position to interfere in the outcome of the flight as (partially) responsible.


* It is however not loggable time.
Are you though, if you’re just observing then surely the instructor would be PIC? My equivalent would be a line check, the training captain on the jump seat is the most senior pilot on board but are categorically just there as an observer, and the rules are very clear on that. Should we fail the outbound entirely, they could then jump in the LHS and train the RHS on the return, then they would be PIC.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 10:21
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Please, stop now...
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 12:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TimGriff6 View Post
To add a bit more info, exactly what question were they asked and how did the insurance company 'say' it's ok?
Probably meant he just has to be onboard for his insurance to cover.... otherwise it would be a thrid-party flying the aircraft, and it would either not cover, or be more expensive?
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 13:00
  #24 (permalink)  
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Question was as my first post. The insurance company were asked if the PIC can be sat in the back (with two other pilots in the front). They said yes, no problem.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 13:08
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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If it's an insurance issue, then I suspect that the term PIC is confusing things. For insurance purposes, Sam R. needs to be on board but may be in the backseat. For operational purposes it's probably best to have one of the frontseaters act as PIC. Personally, that's the way I would approach it, although there may will be better ways to solve this.

Edit: just thought of a way to check the legality of this.... damage the aircraft a bit during this operation and claim it on your insurance.
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Old 23rd Jun 2020, 16:47
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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On homonculus's point I disagree as my understading is that policy wording is contractual in nature and you cannot contract out of the law
I am not a lawyer and have never claimed on an aviation policy but sadly I do have to argue the [email protected]@@ daily with insurers. You are correct in that normally you must be legal in all matters and any policy even eg house contents can be nullified if you are behaving outside the law. However that does not stop an insurer doing what they want ie the opposite and insuring illegal acts. It seems from my earlier post that the insurer may not have totally understood the situation, which raises the additional risk (to policy holder, not insurer of course) that if the insurer can claim in any way you might have misled, not totally informed, or otherwise said anything in a way they can even claim not to have understood, then again you are not insured. I always assume an insurer will not pay out ever, and then on occasions I have a happy surprise.

None of which answers OP's question
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 01:52
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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In Oz my reading of the regs does not require the PIC to be sat at the controls, only that the required number of certified pilots be at the controls, they define the PIC simply as "Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time", as mentioned previously s/he can be in the bunk. My answer to the OP is yes.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 08:42
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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I can't think of any regulations that prohibit the pilot in command being in the back seat, UNLESS the POH (which has legal standing of-course) requires the PiC to be in a particular seat.

But I'm reminded, as I often am, of an old boss of mine at Boscombe Down who gave me the advice "Before making any decision in aviation, always run through your mind the phrase 'at the subsequent board of inquiry' ".

In that case, I think that anybody who thinks that an FI in the back, with no qualified pilot in the front is acting professionally as PiC, is daft. But the case suggested above of an FE in the back checking an FI in the front who is instructing a student sat next to them: the FE being Captain. Well it's unusual, but no more problematic than the Captain of an airliner taking a rest break whilst two qualified pilots remain in the cockpit mid Atlantic.

Another instance might be a 2-seat tandem with no dual controls, current and qualified pilot at the controls, FI or CRI conducting a biennial from the other seat, logging PiC. What's wrong with that?

The quoted original case (four pilots in a PA28) sounds distinctly dodgy, as it sounds very much like four mates going flying together, and the one who happens to be an instructor trying to log everything. You are only, as an instructor, PiC in two circumstances. Either you're flying the thing yourself, or it is formally briefed, etc. as an instructional sortie. Simply being on board with an instructors rating does not make you able to log it as Captain. I've had a couple of instances where (as a CRI but really just going flying with a friend) they *afterwards* asked if they could count it as their biennal - to which I have always said no (but sweetened it by offering to do the biennial, properly briefed, for free in their own aircraft whenever they like, but strangely nobody has ever taken me up on that).

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 24th Jun 2020 at 09:03.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 09:30
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The attached link makes for important reading. It was impossible for the examiner to be sat forward facing and secured in their seat whilst observing. The pilot seats are screened off from the passenger seats. The examiner in this situation would have to be sat sideways on a rear facing passenger seat, with a slackened harness, whilst peaking through the central access. I believe the FAA changed the rules following this accident to prevent FAA examining from the rear seats.

https://www.baaa-acro.com/crash/cras...rside-1-killed
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 11:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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In Oz my reading of the regs does not require the PIC to be sat at the controls, only that the required number of certified pilots be at the controls,
In the end I think that is the 'most correct' answer.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 13:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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If I understand this in Post #1 Sam says that the GIB is the only one insured. I assume that if one of the highly qualified pilots at the controls breaks the aeroplane, the insurance company will walk away. That's how it would work in my car.
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 15:50
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Why doesn't the PIC just fly the damn aircraft......
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Old 24th Jun 2020, 16:05
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Insurance companies in my experience do not procrastinate on how/who/when a pilot is the PIC. They keep it simple and insure in accordance with the national authority regulations. They will of course sometimes stipulate restrictions, such as experience on type, but these will be clearly set out in the policy. They normally grant exemptions when asked to insure a safety situation say: when a type is single pilot but there is only one set of controls. This may include a CRI/instructor or another approved person to be in the non flying seat during a conversion, which most underwriters encourage.

In multi-crew aeroplanes regulation makes it clear who/when a pilot is the PIC but this is not comparable to single pilot operations, whatever the view of barrack room lawyers. For me it is a complete no-no for the PIC to ride in the rear seats with two others sat at the controls and it can never be justified..
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 16:22
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Talking

'orse pucky and if it isn't it should be
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 14:46
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I think insurance compagnies consider the Person in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.
Who is responsible during the operation?
Clearly there’re is no need for it to be the person manipulating the controls.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 15:55
  #36 (permalink)  

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Note to EASA multi-pilot operators:

Part-FCL no longer contains the term commander, except in some of the syllabus templates.
Part-OPS refers to commander in the usual manner, but the definition is missing.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 07:48
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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"I think insurance companies consider thePerson in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.".

That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 08:56
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
Tell that to the airlines, military, business jets operators,...
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Old 30th Jun 2020, 11:23
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog View Post
"I think insurance companies consider thePerson in Command rather then the Pilot in Command.".

That is ridiculous, how can you be a person in command if you are not a qualified pilot and for the type or class of aeroplane. The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls and be able to take control. Any argument to the contrary is unfounded, stupid and ridiculous.
Little quick on the trigger there boss.
I never said the person in the back does not need hold a license.
Generally the person manipulating the controls aka “flying” is considered the “pilot” of the aircraft. The “pilot” does not need to be the PIC.
If the PIC is in the backseat he/she obviously needs to hold a valid medical/pilot certificate appropriate to the operation.

FAA:
The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
and
Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers
ICAO Annex 2:
The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall, whether manipulating the controls or not, be responsible for the operation of the aircraft in accordance with the rules of the air, except that the pilot-in-command may depart from these rules in circumstances that render such departure absolutely necessary in the interests of safety.
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Old 1st Jul 2020, 07:22
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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The pilot in command must always be at a set of controls
I'll believe that when you can quote a relevant aviation authority directive, until then arketip has the correct information.
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