PIC in the back seat
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,876
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From: Here
I'm intrigued that this is still running - what I thought was a stupid question (answer obvious, in a single pilot plane the PIC has to be sat in the front) is clearly not quite as simple/clear cut.
In the end we did the 'obvious' thing, just got everyone fully insured. Ferry completed yesterday!
In the end we did the 'obvious' thing, just got everyone fully insured. Ferry completed yesterday!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 680
Likes: 3
From: Who cares? ;-)
I was involved in an accident in March 2013 (two -seater powered glider). The children of the PIC, who died in the crash, tried to give me a bit of the responsibility, but at the court proceedings they lost as the PIC is the person in the left hand seat. There was no argument about that!! I'm still suffering from that accident (I can't walk)!! I was once a flight instrutor but that was no longer good.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,524
Likes: 1
From: United Kingdom
Part-FCL no longer contains the term commander, except in some of the syllabus templates.
Part-OPS refers to commander in the usual manner, but the definition is missing.
Part-OPS refers to commander in the usual manner, but the definition is missing.
Annex I to Regulation 965/2012 - Definitions
(96) ‘pilot-in-command’ means the pilot designated as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of the flight. For the purpose of commercial air transport operations, the ‘pilot-in-command’ shall be termed the ‘commander’;
(96) ‘pilot-in-command’ means the pilot designated as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of the flight. For the purpose of commercial air transport operations, the ‘pilot-in-command’ shall be termed the ‘commander’;
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,766
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From: GA, USA
I was involved in an accident in March 2013 (two -seater powered glider). The children of the PIC, who died in the crash, tried to give me a bit of the responsibility, but at the court proceedings they lost as the PIC is the person in the left hand seat. There was no argument about that!! I'm still suffering from that accident (I can't walk)!! I was once a flight instrutor but that was no longer good.
Where you giving instruction or was this a joyride.
Were you current in make and model?
Were you even familiar with make and model?
Did you hold a medical on that day?
Long story short did you qualify to be PIC that day or not?
There’s a lot there that would have come up during a judicial inquiry.
In the original question assume we have three people that are similarly experienced and everybody is current and otherwise qualified to be PIC, can the person in the backseat be the PIC? Yes they can.
As far as rental aircraft, in whose name is the aircraft signed out that flight?
That will always be the one responsible in the eyes of the insurance company.
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,563
Likes: 953
From: Aus
I was involved in an accident in March 2013 (two -seater powered glider). The children of the PIC, who died in the crash, tried to give me a bit of the responsibility, but at the court proceedings they lost as the PIC is the person in the left hand seat. There was no argument about that!! I'm still suffering from that accident (I can't walk)
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 34
From: London,England
In the UK the situation is clearly laid out in the Air Navigation Order 2016 Article 70, copied below. The relevant section is 3 which implies that you can be the PIC and not at the controls as long as the flight is not a public transport passenger flight. Different for helicopters (section 4)
Pilot to remain at controls and be secured in seat
70.—(1) During flight, the pilot in command must—
(a) keep any safety belt fastened while at the pilot’s station; and
(b) remain at the controls of the aircraft at all times except if another pilot is taking the
controls.
(2) If the aircraft is required by or under this Order to carry two pilots, the pilot in command
must cause both pilots to remain at the controls during take-off and landing.
(3) If the aircraft carries two or more pilots (whether or not it is required to do so) and is flying
on a flight for the purpose of the public transport of passengers, the pilot in command must remain
at the controls during take-off and landing.
(4) An operator must not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power for the purpose of
making a flight unless there is a person at the controls entitled in accordance with article 137 to act
as pilot in command of the helicopter. (a)
Pilot to remain at controls and be secured in seat
70.—(1) During flight, the pilot in command must—
(a) keep any safety belt fastened while at the pilot’s station; and
(b) remain at the controls of the aircraft at all times except if another pilot is taking the
controls.
(2) If the aircraft is required by or under this Order to carry two pilots, the pilot in command
must cause both pilots to remain at the controls during take-off and landing.
(3) If the aircraft carries two or more pilots (whether or not it is required to do so) and is flying
on a flight for the purpose of the public transport of passengers, the pilot in command must remain
at the controls during take-off and landing.
(4) An operator must not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power for the purpose of
making a flight unless there is a person at the controls entitled in accordance with article 137 to act
as pilot in command of the helicopter. (a)
Last edited by Max Angle; 16th July 2020 at 10:05.
