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"Booking Out" and the AIP

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"Booking Out" and the AIP

Old 22nd Jan 2020, 13:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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And at Redhill, you even get to appear on the arrivals / departures board on the website. Albeit pretty briefly

https://www.redhillaerodrome.com/arrivals-departures
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 17:25
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jan Olieslagers View Post
The Brits keep on stunning me with their contradictory language.
It is only the Continentals that find it contradictory. Nothing unusual in that.
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 20:33
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by patowalker View Post
It is only the Continentals that find it contradictory. Nothing unusual in that.
Not true. Whilst Jan's assumption about grass airfields not being controlled was a mistake (for which he apologised), he's not wrong to criticise the language used in the legislative and regulatory documents that litter aviation. If you want an example (to take us even further from the question in my original post), explain the value of "OUT" in CAP 413's "Standard Words and Phrases".
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 22:23
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Booking out - how quaint. So 1950's.
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 22:30
  #25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nomorecatering View Post
Booking out - how quaint. So 1950's.
Indeed. What do you do in Oz out of interest?
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Old 22nd Jan 2020, 22:43
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Originally Posted by BillieBob View Post
What gives you the idea that Redhill is not a controlled aerodrome? Eurocontrol defines a controlled aerodrome as "An aerodrome at which an air traffic control service is provided to aerodrome traffic" and, according to the UK AIP, Redhill provides an ATC service (Redhill Tower) between the hours of 0845 and 0715. Where, pray, is the misuse of aviation language?

Alex just beat me to it.
So what happens between 0715 and 0845? Tower closed for breakfast?
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 04:32
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Originally Posted by oceancrosser View Post
So what happens between 0715 and 0845? Tower closed for breakfast?
He meant 1715 not 0715!
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 04:42
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As I mentioned above, 'booking' out' at a military airfield has a different result from that at a civil airfield.
At a civil airfield, your details are used by the ATSU or A/G operator.
At a military airfield, your details are additionally passed to your destination airfield and they are informed when you are airborne to enable overdue action to be taken if required..
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 09:20
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Notification to the destination of the flight details is the case only if a 'flight plan' has been filed and that is the same for everywhere. Otherwise it is not done even from an MOD airfield.
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 09:52
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Originally Posted by ZG862 View Post
Not true. Whilst Jan's assumption about grass airfields not being controlled was a mistake (for which he apologised), he's not wrong to criticise the language used in the legislative and regulatory documents that litter aviation. If you want an example (to take us even further from the question in my original post), explain the value of "OUT" in CAP 413's "Standard Words and Phrases".
So you have also read CAP 413. Good for you.



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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 10:21
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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If you want an example (to take us even further from the question in my original post), explain the value of "OUT" in CAP 413's "Standard Words and Phrases"
Nothing whatever to do with the UK, this is ICAO phraseology and is not, as CAP413 makes clear, normally used in V/UHF communications. Not surprisingly, therefore, it has little or no value to private pilots who seldom if ever have to cope with the vagaries of HF propagation.

Thanks, Chevvron, for correcting my earlier typo.
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 12:56
  #32 (permalink)  
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Thanks Chevvron and Fl1ingfrog for contributing to the subject under discussion.
"Overdue action" sounds very much like an alerting service. Civil ATC does this too .
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Old 23rd Jan 2020, 18:29
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Many, many years ago - late 70s or so - when I did my basic training, in the UK booking out was required by some regulation or other (the Rules of the Air Regulations rings a bell). I think it required very basic information about the intended flight - reg, destination/local flight, POB and maybe endurance - to be provided to the aerodrome of departure. As others have mentioned, it didn't guarantee that anyone would come looking for you if you didn't turn up as expected but it gave people an idea where to look if they choose to. It was possibly unique to the UK, I've not come across any similar formal system elsewhere. It was distinctly different to filing a flight plan which was a very specific thing, usually handed in to ATC before a flight on a very wizzy-looking form (which hasn't changed much since then).

Over the years, a thing called an 'abbreviated flight plan' appeared, which was essentially enough information to enable an ATS unit to provide what a pilot wanted. So that initial call to ATC to request a zone transit, or whatever, was an abbreviated flight plan, as is the initial call at an aerodrome to request taxi instructions. Booking out as a thing is no longer required.

It's all in the UK AIP ENR 1.10, in particular the note under para 1.3.1 and section 1.4.

I see chevvron has contributed to this thread. I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned it but I always thought that booking out was invented at Farnborough.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 00:29
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Booking Out

CAP 493 Section 1 Chapter 2 para 14
14. Booking-Out
Pilots who do not file a flight plan, either full or abbreviated, are required to inform the ATSU at the aerodrome of their departure. This is referred to as booking-out. The ATSU is to record the departure. No further action is required.

for the sake of completeness

10. Filing of Flight Plans
10.1 Flight plans fall into two categories:
(1) (2)
Full flight plans; the information required on Form CA48/RAF2919.
Abbreviated flight plans; the limited information required to obtain a clearance for a portion of flight, e.g. flying in a control zone, crossing an airway etc. filed either on the RTF or by telephone prior to take-off.

and

10.3 The destination aerodrome will be advised of the flight only if the flight plan information covers the whole route of the flight.

Busy ATSUs I would suggest prefer a booking out over the phone to alleviate RT workload and naturally be forewarned about potential movements.

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Old 24th Jan 2020, 10:24
  #35 (permalink)  

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Booking out as a thing is no longer required.
You won't get much joy if you try calling for start at many UK airports without booking out in advance.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 11:37
  #36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
You won't get much joy if you try calling for start at many UK airports without booking out in advance.
Absolutely - and hence my original question.
In my (limited) experience, the controller at such an airport will do their best not to sound too tetchy when they say "G-ABCD, Anytown Tower. Have you booked out? I don't have a strip for you." This is responded to with anything from apologetically (the pilot shuts down and toddles off to book out over the phone) to with a great deal of bluster and indignance ("Do you know who I am? Can't you just take my booking now?!"). The latter sometimes results in very long waits at holding points...

Anyway, my query was: what is the best way to find out whether or not booking out over the phone is customary at aerodrome x and if so, what's the process? I think Jonathan's response was the most reliable for my purposes - phone the ops number published on the AIP and ask.

I'm still interested in what happens in other countries. It seems that the norm in many places is to book out over the radio, which must either be quite an overhead for the controller or mean that less information is recorded than the "PYM" type (plus fuel endurance) stuff asked at my local.
Thanks for all your input.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 13:21
  #37 (permalink)  
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I'm still interested in what happens in other countries. It seems that the norm in many places is to book out over the radio,
At 99% of airports in North America, there is no such thing as booking out. The nearest equivalent at fewer than 1% of airports would be the requirement to telephone for a transponder code before walking out to your plane. I am aware of this requirement at a few of the biggest, busiest airports in Canada. Otherwise, as long as you conform to radio procedures, and traffic flow, you come and go as you wish with no other fuss. Flights beyond 25 miles require a flight plan or the alternative, notification to a responsible person. Happily, my wife is a very responsible person!
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 13:50
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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You won't get much joy if you try calling for start at many UK airports without booking out in advance.
When I said booking out is no longer a thing, I meant that it is replaced by an abbreviated flight plan - all described in the AIP. Notifying the airport of an intended departure is still required for most aerodromes. In some cases this will be set out in the conditions of use of the site......so, somewhere else to look!
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 14:06
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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There must be many more reasons for 'booking' routines.

During ab inition PPL training at Mascot (Sydney) in 1969, we were required - at least when leaving the circuit - to book out where we were going to fly, to comply with "SAR Watch".
[Search & Rescue].

Nowadays as a UK "airfield" operator - i.e. a grass field - in common with many others we keep a 'C' book for pilots to log their flights after arrival.
The Police seem to find its availability helpful & the accumulated movements, particularly over the first 10 or 12 years from starting the strip, are evidence of my Common Law rights for the land's 'change of use': all without submitting a Planning Application.

Last edited by mikehallam; 24th Jan 2020 at 14:08. Reason: sp.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 14:53
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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to book out where we were going to fly, to comply with "SAR Watch".
Yes, isn't that the exact same reason for which we are supposed to file a flight plan?

we keep a 'C' book for pilots to log their flights after arrival.
and before taking off, too, I should expect? That is what we do here in BE, it is in fact a legal obligation; though it is not in France, AFAIK. In Germany, the "Flugleiter" (= mandatory radio operator at any aerodrome) will do it for us. Both the arrival and the departure, I mean, in all countries I know about.
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