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Airspace Infringments

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Airspace Infringments

Old 19th Jun 2019, 14:13
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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There is no new policy or procedure in place. If an infringement is deemed to be serious enough a provisional suspension will likely take place with referral to the GASCO course or, in extreme circumstances, legal action will follow. The only "new-ish" part of this is the likely increase in chances of suspension. The stats are not improving so something needs to be done. We have examples at our airport of people switching off transponders to avoid being caught, deciding to enter controlled airspace without approval because the controller sounded busy etc etc. These show shocking displays of airmanship and those involved deserve to be prosecuted.

The exception to all of this is, if you can prove you did everything to avoid an infringement (use listening squawk, moving map etc) then mistakes will never result in prosecution. Mistakes do happen but you need to do everything to mitigate infringements during your pre-flight brief. Fly with an up to date chart, read your NOTAMs etc and display good practice.

UK airspace design is pretty poor and in some cases, confusing. However, if you do not understand a piece of airspace then grab some time with an instructor to ask some questions on how to navigate around it.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 12:56
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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My understanding of the issue, from information I have gathered at our local AIT meetings is that the situation is getting worse. That appears to be caused by people who don't use the aids and the help that are available. No use of moving map, poor flight planning, not using a LARS, switching off transponders. If you have taken all reasonable care and still managed to make a mistake, you won't be castigated. However if you have taken a cavalier attitude then you most likely will. I simply want to be able to use the airspace I am allowed to in the best way possible because I enjoy it. I am none too happy when the amount I can use is likely to be reduced to give more protection to commercial aviation who pay the bills from people who threaten it.
Dave Gittins is offline  
Old 21st Jun 2019, 12:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Question. When will there be some CAA guidance upon the use of moving map and the demonstration of effective use becoming a feature of the practical test prior to initial licence issue or ongoing revaluation process.
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 19:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
Question. When will there be some CAA guidance upon the use of moving map and the demonstration of effective use becoming a feature of the practical test prior to initial licence issue or ongoing revaluation process.
It's on the way - no timescales as such yet, but colleagues without/within are working on it, as part of a larger process on infringement management. Sadly long overdue, but the wheels do turn eventually!!
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Old 21st Jun 2019, 20:02
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Meanwhile in the real world, we're teaching students how to use the moving map installed in the panel and showing them Skydemon on a tablet. Other VFR software is available (apparently you have to say this sort of thing so as not to get accused of advertising...)

Actually, the most serious infringement in the past 12 months was someone who claimed to usually use a moving map and chose not to. He apparently generated a plog calculated for a flight he then abandoned and re-used on a different day when the winds were completely different. You can't legislate against this kind of behaviour!

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  
Old 22nd Jun 2019, 02:44
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Well sire it sounds like total idiocy but then perhaps equally so is when authoriry have this multi year problem, where they suggest the use of a moving map is a large part of the solution and indeed suggest the lack of one is not very clever..... except they dont even offer any guidance as to how to use one.

its all well and good individual flying schools offering things piecemeal but that doesn't fit best practice and standardisation and what if the best efforts of a school are wrong?


Originally Posted by LastStandards View Post
It's on the way - no timescales as such yet, but colleagues without/within are working on it, as part of a larger process on infringement management. Sadly long overdue, but the wheels do turn eventually!!
not good enoigh is it? Why not even a timescale? Here is a thought how about employjng some extra bodies and getting things done in a timescale that fits peoples expectations in 2019.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 08:31
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Part of the issue is falling under the EASA banner. We cannot change our training (whether it is amend existing or introduce new) without jumping through the EASA hoops so it is not as straight forwards as you may think. EASA is the over arching authority, and before anyone starts banging the Brexit drum, we will still follow EASA after October.

Another change that is required is to standardise the biennial flight check. Include an airspace crossing and some form of infringement/airspace awareness. Set a syllabus for it, don't leave it to the instructor to do what they feel like doing.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 08:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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destinationsky, "The biennial flight check" isn't a check.

Part.FCL Revalidation by Experience requires 1 hour with an instructor; it can't be passed or failed and it can be used to gain additional skills - whihc it wouldn't be able to if fundmanetally cghanged to have a rote syllabus as you suggest.

You're solving one alleged problem by minimising the value many people get form the current Reval requirements. So not that simple.

Regarding the current culture of coming down hard on infringers; at first sight it all seems reasonable, but there is a disturbing number of stories out there that suggests a "Just Culture" is not applied well. It would be great to discuss this objectively, but it doesn't seem possible to do so online as too many people immediately get defensive or high-handed. Not all of them pilots.
hoodie is online now  
Old 25th Jun 2019, 09:31
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I am not suggesting it should be pass/fail. I am suggesting that it should contain either a set list or suggested list of items that should be covered to standardise it. SOME instructors/pilots use it as an opportunity to go for an hour bimble and some actually use it for a valuable refresh of skills that may have not been practised. In some circumstances, pilots will not see the value of this hour and do anything to make it easier for themselves. This does happen.

There is a just culture within infringements and the aviation industry as a whole. If a pilot infringes and they are open, honest and willing to learn about it then the whole episode is used as a learning exercise. It is those pilots who refuse to accept they have done wrong (despite evidence showing they have!) and argue and do everything they can to get out of it, are the ones who go against just culture and don't promote the correct attitudes. And those who know they have just infringed and decide to switch off the transponder have a special place reserved for them....

Sadly, it is the few that ruin it for the many.




destinationsky is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2019, 12:12
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Guidance is just that it doesnt require any legislation to be passed here or at EASA. Seems odd doesnt it that we must infringe in order to take the learning point? Its also odd that the trend of airspace infringement isnt coming down and nobody sees fit to find an alternative solution. Funny old world.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 16:40
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
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It would mean a minimum of a 2-hour round-trip flight from here to enter any Class 'D' airspace. The best we can manage is an ATZ crossing.
The biggest problem we have is with visitors not calling the local radar unit and then flying through the final approach track. All quite legal in Class 'G' but shockingly bad manners. Sometimes the radar unit will phone me and ask me to have a polite word - 'You were in Class 'G' but...' sort of thing. The last thing either the radar unit or us want is Class 'D', thank you very much!
I'd be very much against any prescribed list for the revalidation instructor flight. I used to work for a large multi-site training organisation that had a list of things to cover on the 2nd year flight which was also used for their own proficiency check for hirers. It was such a large list you had to rush through it - quite unsatisfactory and counter-productive, I found. But they were paying me wages, so one went with the flow.
Then they went bust.
Nowadays, I sit down with the pilot and discuss what flying they've been doing recently and what they'd like to do. I say 'I have a little list' which concentrates their mind!
You can even turn a local bimble into an interesting exercise, practicing diversions, for instance, seeing if you can get an accurate heading and an ETA to a nominated location.

TOO
TheOddOne is offline  

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