Where does your hours lesson start?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: EGHF
When does your hour lesson start?
Further to my recent "How much are your lessons" thread I have discovered that there are differences between schools as to how your hour is actually calculated.
I fly from a busy international airport (EGHI) so I pay top wack for my hour, but then I get to mix with the big boys and my RT benefits, though I have to make several costly orbits.
But when exactly does the meter start running?
1) Is it on the Hobbs?
2) Brakes off to brakes on?
3)Take off to landing plus 10 mins?
4) take off to landing minus orbit time? (being a bit optimistic here!)
5) any other arrangement?
Would be interested to know.
Have fun!
I fly from a busy international airport (EGHI) so I pay top wack for my hour, but then I get to mix with the big boys and my RT benefits, though I have to make several costly orbits.
But when exactly does the meter start running?
1) Is it on the Hobbs?
2) Brakes off to brakes on?
3)Take off to landing plus 10 mins?
4) take off to landing minus orbit time? (being a bit optimistic here!)
5) any other arrangement?
Would be interested to know.
Have fun!
Last edited by Thumpango; 4th August 2002 at 20:46.
High Flying Bird
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Old Sarum ish
Depends on which a/c I'm flying...
The C152 is brakes off to brakes on, but if going for fuel the time starts from when you restart on the apron.
The Cherokee is on the tacho, so actually works out cheaper than the C152. Bargain!
The C152 is brakes off to brakes on, but if going for fuel the time starts from when you restart on the apron.
The Cherokee is on the tacho, so actually works out cheaper than the C152. Bargain!
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
I fly from a busy international airport (EGHI) so I pay top wack for my hour, but then I get to mix with the big boys and my RT benefits, though I have to make several costly orbits.
..
..
..
4) take off to landing minus orbit time? (being a bit optimistic here!)
There was a flying school at Phoenix International (now that is what you call a busy international airport) who would not charge for the time you were holding/orbiting when returning to base.
Didn't happen too often though, ATC there are pretty hot and would usually fit you in no problem, just bring you in from the side. I once got told I'd have to wait to shoot a practice ILS in a 172, but only twenty minutes or so, Approach controller was bored and begged me to do it. Try that at LHR or even that class D place, LGW??? 
Flying school moved off after Sep 11. Anyway, the expensive bit wasn't being in the air, "Taxi to runway 25R, Number 14 for departure".
..
..
..
4) take off to landing minus orbit time? (being a bit optimistic here!)
There was a flying school at Phoenix International (now that is what you call a busy international airport) who would not charge for the time you were holding/orbiting when returning to base.
Didn't happen too often though, ATC there are pretty hot and would usually fit you in no problem, just bring you in from the side. I once got told I'd have to wait to shoot a practice ILS in a 172, but only twenty minutes or so, Approach controller was bored and begged me to do it. Try that at LHR
or even that class D place, LGW??? Flying school moved off after Sep 11. Anyway, the expensive bit wasn't being in the air, "Taxi to runway 25R, Number 14 for departure".
Last edited by slim_slag; 5th August 2002 at 05:46.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 537
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From: Northampton UK
I'm charged an hourly rate from the datcon, thus engine start to enging stop.
All instructor time (which can be substantial above and beyond the engine running time, depending upon how busy the school is) is included in this hourly rate .
All instructor time (which can be substantial above and beyond the engine running time, depending upon how busy the school is) is included in this hourly rate
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Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 129
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From: EGHF
Thank you all for your comments. Seems that most of you are charged Brakes off to brakes on. The best and fairest deal appears to be t/o to landing +0.2.
Slim_Slag - liked the no. 14 for departure! my airport isn't that busy thank goodness!
After t/o you never really know when you will be able to land.
The other day I had to orbit for 20mins+ due to an incident on the runway- fair enough, these things happen. Bottom line though was it cost me £50. Good opportunity to practice 30deg turns though!
Have fun!
Slim_Slag - liked the no. 14 for departure! my airport isn't that busy thank goodness!
After t/o you never really know when you will be able to land.
The other day I had to orbit for 20mins+ due to an incident on the runway- fair enough, these things happen. Bottom line though was it cost me £50. Good opportunity to practice 30deg turns though!
Have fun!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 716
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From: London
Brakes off to brakes on is an excellent arrangement.
I find that resetting the parking brake after rotation makes for greatly reduced costs. Just remember to include it in your downwind checks, or the cost benefit can be negated quite severely.
For extra value, do your 'brakes holding' check at startup. Generally I find that at 1200 rpm, sadly they do in fact hold. However stretching to about 2,500rpm, there's generally enough 'give' for a very slow taxi out to the hold. Sure it takes time, but as this isn't costing anything there's no reason to hurry.
Ultimately this does not actually increase the 'out time' for the aircraft - the taxi back after landing tends to be considerably expedited, due to the fully failed brakes.
Wave knowingly to a blur of less experienced renting pilots as you pass their parking areas in rapid succession. Sometimes a taxiing 'go around' is required if you've got too much momentum. For small potential overrun, 'S' turns can help reduce unwanted speeds.
When you finally get back to the clubhouse, remark on the rather poor paintwork on the building behind the club's parking spot. Toss a fiver on the table, saying "and I won't ask about the change!" and give a cheery goodbye.
I find that resetting the parking brake after rotation makes for greatly reduced costs. Just remember to include it in your downwind checks, or the cost benefit can be negated quite severely.
For extra value, do your 'brakes holding' check at startup. Generally I find that at 1200 rpm, sadly they do in fact hold. However stretching to about 2,500rpm, there's generally enough 'give' for a very slow taxi out to the hold. Sure it takes time, but as this isn't costing anything there's no reason to hurry.
Ultimately this does not actually increase the 'out time' for the aircraft - the taxi back after landing tends to be considerably expedited, due to the fully failed brakes.
Wave knowingly to a blur of less experienced renting pilots as you pass their parking areas in rapid succession. Sometimes a taxiing 'go around' is required if you've got too much momentum. For small potential overrun, 'S' turns can help reduce unwanted speeds.
When you finally get back to the clubhouse, remark on the rather poor paintwork on the building behind the club's parking spot. Toss a fiver on the table, saying "and I won't ask about the change!" and give a cheery goodbye.
Last edited by paulo; 5th August 2002 at 21:40.
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From: He's on the limb to nowhere
Thumpango
Seems that most of you are charged Brakes off to brakes on
I think you will find that in the commercial arena, most places charge on the Hobbs. Have you noticed that when you cannot get the engine to fire up, the Hobbs still turns when you are cranking? Annoying, that.
Wear and tear (therefore maintanance) and fuel use is more closely related to Tach times. Most clubs or syndicates (where the pilots own the plane) charge this way.
A commercial operation can therefore charge brakes off to brakes on, and not be too concerned, because tach time is hardly doing much in the idle. If people are honest, it works well, and the owner of the plane doesn't need to spend all that money putting a Hobbs in.
Maybe thats why you will ALWAYS find a Hobbs in a US rental plane
Seems that most of you are charged Brakes off to brakes on
I think you will find that in the commercial arena, most places charge on the Hobbs. Have you noticed that when you cannot get the engine to fire up, the Hobbs still turns when you are cranking? Annoying, that.
Wear and tear (therefore maintanance) and fuel use is more closely related to Tach times. Most clubs or syndicates (where the pilots own the plane) charge this way.
A commercial operation can therefore charge brakes off to brakes on, and not be too concerned, because tach time is hardly doing much in the idle. If people are honest, it works well, and the owner of the plane doesn't need to spend all that money putting a Hobbs in.
Maybe thats why you will ALWAYS find a Hobbs in a US rental plane
Joined: May 2002
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From: Over the hedge... just!
I've always been charged tach time.
It works out (generally) 1 hour on the tacho is 1.1 hours brakes on to brakes off. All my instructors charged BO to BO.
So your log book gets 1.1 hours and you pay for 1 A/C hour and 1.1 instructor hour. We were on a farm strip so very little waiting about on the ground.
CC
It works out (generally) 1 hour on the tacho is 1.1 hours brakes on to brakes off. All my instructors charged BO to BO.
So your log book gets 1.1 hours and you pay for 1 A/C hour and 1.1 instructor hour. We were on a farm strip so very little waiting about on the ground.
CC
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
We must be in the minority - we don't use the Hobbs or tachometer to measure time, we use a clock - and as a result don't get people trying to fly with stone cold engines! We charge for 'Time from starting the taxying process with the intention of taking off to completion of the taxying process after final landing rounded to the nearest 5 minutes'. I.e. you pay for what you may log. Instructor remuneration is based on the same time.
So we lose a bob or two. But it makes calculation of charges easy - any disputes and we just check the pilot's personal logbook!
The odd Spam-trained pilot or Hairy Arm Corps refugee who use decimal time have to be re-educated to use 'real' time, but everyone else finds it a very simple system!
So we lose a bob or two. But it makes calculation of charges easy - any disputes and we just check the pilot's personal logbook!
The odd Spam-trained pilot or Hairy Arm Corps refugee who use decimal time have to be re-educated to use 'real' time, but everyone else finds it a very simple system!
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Paros, Greece
Hobbs. Must admit that, although not particularly concerned about saving money (or I'd be in the wrong hobby), I do tend to have an eye on the meter when doing the pre shutdown checks, knowing that a few extra seconds may cost me an extra £10 
.
Silly, just human nature, but I can't stop being aware of this. I know I aught not to rush, and honestly don't think I do, but I bet many people do, after all, a 'free' Full English Breakfast chased by a couple of pints of Guiness really hits the spot after a morning flying
. Silly, just human nature, but I can't stop being aware of this. I know I aught not to rush, and honestly don't think I do, but I bet many people do, after all, a 'free' Full English Breakfast chased by a couple of pints of Guiness really hits the spot after a morning flying
