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Re-registration of accident damaged aircraft

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Re-registration of accident damaged aircraft

Old 10th Apr 2019, 17:11
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Re-registration of accident damaged aircraft

Hi does anyone have any colour on what the process / law is around buying the accident damaged salvage of an accident damaged aircraft, repairing it and re-registering it in the UK.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 20:43
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You get an estimate of the damage. You pay the insurers. You get a quote from an organisation with the authority to sign-off the repair. You get the work done, pay them, and send the documents to the CAA with authority to deduct their charges. You receive the documents.
Insurance companies write of aircraft which are readily repairable, because they don't want the responsibility for problems which arise. Often the owner will buy back the wreck and repair it. He usually is given first offer.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 20:49
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Thanks for that - doesnthe rebuild retain the old registration or is it given a new one? Then finally if given a new registration how is the prior accident history recorded?
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 21:24
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Ditto. Don't go thinking that it's anything like a written-off car. If it's airworthy it's airworthy.

Regarding getting it registered - has it been de-registered?

Posts crossed...

The aircraft registration doesn't change (unless you want a new one, but why?).

The damage gets repaired, the aircraft gets inspected and signed-off as airworthy. If the C of A hasn't run out you go flying again, so long as you have insurance in place.
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Old 10th Apr 2019, 21:50
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Sorry for the cyptic nature there is a little more to this. So aircraft A is damaged beyond economic repair with registration G-ABCD (for example) and has minimal hours. It gets rebuilt with largely new parts but it is certain that the rebuild has at least the accident damaged engine, yet the recreation has a new registration G-DCBA (again for example) and I can see from GINFO that the new mark under the sub-heading "previous ID" has NEW UK. The old aircraft is still registered - however it has a no flight dec signed and I guess that could be an admin cross over. But what I can't fathom is how is that correct? i.e to class the rebuilt aircraft as new? Or is that just an admin anomaly on GINFO and the docs will reflect the rebuild and record its prior history in log books?
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:05
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You're beginning to lose me here...

Aircraft A crashes and gets rebuilt using some original parts (the unbroken ones) and lots of new parts (replacing the broken ones). It is still aircraft A.

It can retain its original registration or it can transfer to a new registration if you like - but the original registration has been allocated to aircraft A and can thus never be used on any other aircraft - but could be used again on aircraft A in the future should the owner want to revert to it.

There is no other aircraft involved.
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 17:16
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Are we talking about an aircraft from a manufacturer with all that goes with it, or a kit on a permit?
If you think it came from a factory, check the manufacturer's plate with the serial number. Then cross-check that against G-INFO. It's possible for someone to fraudulently make a plate, but they'd have to make up a serial number. You can check against the manufacturer's records. It's a bit like the VN on a car - hard to completely defraud in the long run.

There have been aircraft rebuilt using little more than the manufacturer's plate.

If it's a kit or on a permit, check with the LAA.


TOO
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:14
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The general rule is that the registration stays with the fuselage. But I have owned an aircraft which had a new fuselage - which was awarded the same registration as the original. The question is why are you asking? It is possible to assemble a 'bitsa' so long as all the parts are certified if EASA, or sound if LAA. Either way the aircraft has to be airworthy and the logs or mod status will tell the story.
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 18:24
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Originally Posted by TheOddOne View Post
There have been aircraft rebuilt using little more than the manufacturer's plate.
TOO
Yes, happens regularly with "Spitfires", to name but one....!!!!
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Old 11th Apr 2019, 19:23
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I am part owner of an aircraft which was rebuilt using parts from 2 wrecks, (1960 and 1964 models), 20+ years before we bought it. After 17 years, we had to strip the fabric. The wing mainspar had been broken, but properly repaired. Only unrelated woodwork required attention.
I am part owner of another aircraft, which had been deregistered in the UK and moved to France. After being neglected, it was brought back to the UK, refurbished, and given its previous UK registration. That was about 20 years before we bought it.
The engine and airframe are separate, with their own logbooks. The airframe could be wrecked with no engine damage. Eg. Blown over with engine not running.
The engine could be damaged with no airframe damage. It could be rebuilt to new specifications, or replaced with a manufacturer's zero-houred engine.
Many aircraft have had several engines in their lifetime.
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 09:39
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Agree, the engine is the least likely to be linked to a specific registration. Sounds like they used an engine from a previously written off airframe in a restoration project, creating G-DCBA from airframe parts originating elsewhere. The original G-ABCD may still exist as a pile of broken bits somewhere (or something more or less aircraft shaped). You'd need to look at the details for G-DCBA to see which serial number it uses, most likely a different one from G-ABCD.
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 12:00
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Dan Air in 1970 bought a written off BAC 1-11 400 (Was D-ANDY of Bavaria Flug) that had crashed in an RTO overrun at Gerona and BAC rebuilt it - it became G-AZED

BMA pranged and wrote off a Viscount G-AZLT at LBA 1981 - with new wings from WFU G-BAPD (I think or maybe PE) she became G-BMAT
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 12:33
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Engines and propellers have their own type certificates & logbooks, and as such may quite legitimately be moved airplane to airplane, as long as the logbooks record the change. There's nothing unusual about that. Example would be replacing a damaged propeller, or engine with a cracked crankcase.

Similarly, airframes may have pieces moved from airframe to airframe, though the documentation of this is less clear, and there is more burden to assure interchangeability (Wings for different model years may not necessarily fit wrong year fuselages). As said, generally the serial number and registrations will stay with the fuselage, though sometimes fuselages are spliced together, which complicates it. In Canada we do have a policy to change a fuselage into an otherwise whole plane also.

It may be difficult for a pilot or maintainer to piece together a true history of a frankenplane. Once its been taken so far apart, you are less assured that its geometry is correct. I've flown many which were fine, and a few which were horror stories. In one case, a 1977 Cessna 206 I was sent to test fly was very non compliant for trim and stall recovery with flaps extended. After a lot of puzzled inspection, and examination of way too vague tech logs, we determined that the plane had been rebuild from a wreck decades earlier, though the records really did not describe what had been done in detail. What I know is that somehow, the horizontal stabilizer had been installed with nearly 1 degree too much angle of incidence, and this cannot be adjusted on this fuselage. It affected low speed flying and trim with flaps extended very badly, and would have been a very unsafe plane for an inexperienced pilot who carelessly stalled it at a low altitude. I only found this as I stall airplanes I maintenance test fly to assure that they stall and recovery as per the type. Obviously, this wrong rebuild was not found (or at least reported), and many inspections since failed to detect (or report) it.

If you are being presented a plane to fly, where there is any question about its purity of airframe, I suggest taking it up high, and applying your best stall skills to stall and slow fly it in all configurations. If all that handling is fine, the plane is probably fine.
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 12:55
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OK....... How about getting your mind around the life history of de Havilland 82 Tiger Moth G-ACDC, of the Tiger Club !!!?? It is the "original" Trigger's broom....!!!
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 14:27
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If someone has built a new kit aircraft and fitted to it an engine (Suitably inspected and certified) from an aircraft sold as salvage by insurers, the aircraft would when registered show as new on G-INFO. The logbooks for that new airframe will show zero hours and the engine logbook should show the hours since new or overhauled of the engine. If someone has bought and repaired an aircraft sold as salvage by Insurers then in the normal course of events, that aircraft would retain it's original registration although the repairer could apply for an out of sequence registration but the G-INFO entry would still link to the previous registration/s and the airframe hours would continue to accrue onto those previously logged under any other registration. Insurers declare aircraft as a constructive total loss (CTL) for several reasons- Repair costs exceed Agreed Value/ Salvage value high compared to agreed value such that it saves Insurers money by paying the claim out as a CTL then selling the salvage rather than repairing for slightly less than the Agreed value/ Uncertainty of final repair costs which may be very close to the agreed value/ repair downtime for a commercial operator............sometimes there is a deal done because the owner simply doesn't want the aircraft back following a significant repair. There are great deals to be had in the salvage market if you know what to look for, sadly though most of the decent salvage goes to commercial buyers although as someone else said- the owner should always be given first bite.
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 16:13
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I'm not sure if this is helpful but last summer I paid the CAA to issue a personal registration for my aircraft. Initially I phoned and asked if I could have my desired reg. to be told that it had already been issued but was no longer in use. When I asked if I could pay to reactivate it I was told that once issued that registration had to stay with the original fuselage and could never be used again, even if classed as 'de-registered'.

Luckily I phoned again on another subject and in passing asked if my desired reg. was obtainable by any means and was informed that the first call had been a mistake and my registration was available. On G-INFO selecting either old or new registration takes you to the current entry for the aircraft with clear indications of its history.
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Old 12th Apr 2019, 22:44
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Originally Posted by Planemike View Post
OK....... How about getting your mind around the life history of de Havilland 82 Tiger Moth G-ACDC, of the Tiger Club !!!?? It is the "original" Trigger's broom....!!!
I think a hub cap might be original. The prang at Rochester around 1963 really was a humdinger, rolled into a ball yet the pilot (Neville Browning?) walked away. I'd pay for a ride in her current incarnation though.
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